Scoot for hauling logs from woods to landing with pictures.

[Jim_Rogers]

In another thread here on the Forestry Forum, I advised another user to build himself a sled to haul logs out of the woods to the landing.

Here is that story again:

When we were logging back in the 80's we didn't have anything but a tractor with a front bucket. Just a "snow" bucket not a dirt digging front bucket.
If you've seen my forklift attachment in any of my pictures you've seen my front bucket.
And as this machine was bought, just to plow and lift snow back in 1968, we just had a set of heavy arms on the back which we set a large concrete block onto, that attached to our top link, as we did have removable three point hitch arms. We had a mower and a York rake to do yard work with in the summer time.
But back to logging.
When my logger wanted to build his house, a log cabin out of stacked oak beams, he went to a woodlot and cut down 300 trees over two weeks. And cut these trees into 360 logs, leaving the tops basically untouched.
He worked in a factory full time then and only did this work on nights and weekends.
I was in the firewood business then and I work on these tops and cut them up for firewood.
When we started pulling out his logs from his lot, he got a real long cable and one pulley to use to attach to the log and snake them out of the lot to the skid trail.
This was a lot of work pulling the cable by hand out to the log and then rolling the log onto the choker and then pulling it out around other trees and stumps.
We did this the first day, as this was what he wanted to do.
He didn't understand that with a little work, you could drive right up to every log and pick it up.
While he was at work one day, I did this and I would move his logs out of the way, and get to the tops. I created a small off skid trail path to every log/tree/top.
Back then we were selling 4' lengths and we'd cut the tops into four footers and load them into the bucket and drive to the truck at the street. Sometimes we'd stack the four foot tops pieces into the bucket so we could just drive to the truck, with no tailgate on and set the load into the back of the truck. Thus, no hand stacking to load the truck.
With large pieces we may have to hand stack.

So the sawyer showed up one day to pick up the first load of oak logs from his site. He was mad as Hell-o when he saw how dirty these logs were from them being dragged with the cable.
He ran an old Lane #1 circular sawmill with no de-barker.

He suggested we build a sled to haul the oak logs on to prevent them from getting dirty.
He showed us some pictures he had and we made one according to his ideas/pictures/drawings and sketches. He called it a scoot.

It had hook spots on each end. You dragged it into the woods by the back end. Then you unhooked your tractor from it and then lifted the logs from where the fell and carried them a few feet over to the scoot.
After you had several on the scoot you'd attach the pull chain to the front end. And you'd pull the scoot to the landing.
We did this for the entire lot, and the sawyer was very happy.

We used this scoot for many years.

I'm sorry I don't have a drawing of one that we used. Or pictures of one that we used, but I did build something similar for a fellow who wanted to move some large granite stones at a retreat.
And I built two of these for him. A large one and a small one. Both were basically the same design as a logging scoot except that they had more cross timbers. And these cross timbers were very large.

They worked for the project he wanted them for and I don't know if they every were used again or not.

I did photograph the entire project of building them. And I was present when they used them to move the large stones at the retreat.

My advice to you, is to save your money, and just build a scoot for hauling your logs.
I can make up a plan for you, and you can build your own for short money and you can do the same thing, as we did. Which was what they did years and years ago before skidders and grapples.

end quote from that story.

Ok, so let's begin.

Back in 2001 I didn't have this fancy drawing program that I have now. I had a cheap or free floor plan drawing program and I was just able to draw some timbers to show the client what the sled/scoot idea would look like.

This is that picture:



Because this drawing program was so restricted to just doing floor plans I wasn't able to show how the long pieces on the bottom, called runners, are truly shaped.

They are cut at an angle on the bottom so that they don't just have a square end to dig into the ground.

When we build our first scoot the old sawyer told us to just have two runners and two cross beams. One at the front and one at the back. And to just make some maple "shoes" for the bottom of the runners. He suggested maple as that's what they did way back in the 30's and 40's when they made scoots.

We made maple "shoes" which were basically just another timber lag bolted to the bottom of the oak runner. But after a while we wore these maple runners out and right down to the oak, and broke off the bolts and we had to repair it and do it all over again.

So the second time we put the maple shoes on, we added some strips of steel to the bottom for the scoot to slide on.

The old sawyer warned us that these steel shoes would rub against rocks in the wood trails and make a spark. And that this could start a forest fire. So this is an important fact that anyone who makes a scoot and puts on steel shoes had to be aware of. You have to look behind yourself as you haul out your logs and see if you started a fire or not.
We'd walk the trail often, picking up and tossing out stones and rocks so that the scoot wouldn't start a forest fire, especially when it was dry.

Now to the new "rock" sleds that I have pictures of.

I don't actually remember how this customer found me, maybe through a tree service or something, but he wanted some oak timbers for these two sleds he wanted to build. He was going to build them and he needed this done by a certain date and as he was very busy with everything else in his life, I suggested he just let me build them for him. You see he didn't have any experience with large timbers, or woodworking tools.

He agreed and we began the process.

The first step was I had to go to get some logs:



Here is a picture of me driving my truck to Mr. Barker's wood pile way out on the other side of this field. This is where I got the logs for this project.

Here is a shot of the logs in the back of my truck parked next to my off-road log truck, next to my mill:



Sometime around this time, I went to the logging equipment show in Bangor Maine and saw someone there had a set of plans for a scoot. And this set of plans included some drawings of the steel pieces that you bolt to the runners for the chains to hook to. We bought a set of these plans and used the drawings to have the steel fabricating shop around the corner from me, to make up four pull plates and four backing plates for the two scoots.

Here is a shot of a pull plate on the side of one of the runners:



My picture label says these are called "draw irons".
And you can see how the bottom of the tip of the runner is cut up on an angle so that you can pull this along and it will not dig into the ground.

It was hot that summer and it rained a lot so I built a temporary roof over an area in my yard where I could work on these timbers out of the sun and rain:



This client wanted to move these large granite rocks at this retreat on these two sleds. So, he hired an engineer who I later met, to design the cross timbers large enough to hold up the rocks. The cross rails ended up being 8x8 red oak timbers. And lots of them:



Here is a shot of the short sled's runners before we put the cross beams on:



You can see the two draw irons on the inside of the rails and one of the backing plates on the outside of the right hand runner.
I bored holes through the runners and through the cross rails/beams so that I could put in some threaded rods to bolt these together. You can just barely see the holes bored in the runners.

Now in order to do this, I had the steel shop weld the nut onto the end of the threaded rod as once the rod was put through the runner I wouldn't have any way to hold it while tightening up the top nut.



Above is a shot of the runners with the threaded rod through the holes and ready for the cross beams.

More next post.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Part two:

Next I set the 8x8 oak cross rails/beams onto the runners the the treaded rods up through the holes I bored through the cross rails:







The last shot above shows the cross rails on the short scoot/sled and the ends of the cross rails have been coated with anchorseal.

Here is a shot of the top of the threaded rod, down in the recessed hole:



To do this and keep everything safe for everyone, I rounded over the edges and ends of every timber with my router round over bit. Even the holes. This removed all sharp edges to the oak timbers.
I bored the large hole first with a power drill and the bored the through hole with my boring machine.

I remember doing this as I broke the shear pin in the boring machine on one of the first holes, and boy was I scared that I wasn't going to be able to finish the job on time. But luckily I got a replacement shear pin in and could continue working.

Here is a shot of the short sled with the pull chain and ring:



I had to move this out of the way so I pulled it down my driveway to get some more room to assemble the bigger one:



Side view:



Here is a shot of assembling the long sled:



Here is a shot of the two sleds upside down ready for the steel shoes to be attached:



Here you can see how I had the threaded rod end welded and how I kept it from spinning in the hole as I tightened up the top nut:



I just jambed in a piece of oak sticker.

Here is one shot of the steel shoe on the runner:



Here is the long sled with both shoes on:



This picture shows the bend in the shoe and how it lined up with the angle cut on the bottom of the runner:



Shoes on the short sled:



Here they both are on the client trailer with some extra lumber he wanted for the bed for the rollers:



Here is a shot of the client leaving my yard, one fine summer day:



And yes, I said rollers.

You see he thought he was going to the planks on the ground and then some rollers and then have these large stones put onto the two sleds and then pull these sleds on the rollers on the planks by hand with 50 or 60 people, like the way the Egyptians did.

Well that idea didn't work out quite like he wanted it to.

But that's another story about moving the stones......

Well that's it, about the stone sleds.

Now to make one of these for hauling logs you'd just use two cross rails on one the front and one on the back and add some brackets on the side for stakes to go into.
We put stakes on so that the logs wouldn't roll off the side as we pull them scoot out to the landing.

We made these stakes about 12 to 18" tall and they were easily removable, as sometimes we'd have to roll the log onto or off of the sled/scoot. Some oak logs are very heavy, and we couldn't lift them up completely to get them on or off. But we could roll them with the front bucket of my tractor/backhoe.

So what do you think?

Jim Rogers 

PS. in making one for a log scoot you wouldn't want the cross beam to hang over the side rail as far as I did in these pictures.
And the brackets for the stakes go onto the outside of the runners between the cross rails.

[Piston]

Looks great Jim. 

I can picture it well behind something like Marcels old pics of "King"




Seems like you could pile a large load of logs on there.  I like the idea of adding stakes on the sides so you wouldn't have to chain down every load. 

[dlabrie]

Wow, that is one heavy duty sled! Thanks for posting all the pictures and info.

[Peter Drouin]

Nice job Jim But I think the sled would rack out of square if one of the runners hit something because the 8x8s are on top of the runners are not notch in to stop it from racking. thats how grandfather ,dad and I do it. and the steel runners would have loops on the front. so when you pull, it would be on the steel and not the wood .you did ask what we thought

[thecfarm]

A nice job Jim. I would of like to see them used for granite.My Father stacked alot of four foot wood on a scoot. I noticed in marcel's pictures too,they could not had many rocks to go over or stumps. The runners were kinda low to the ground. Guess they were always on a packed trail.But easier to roll logs on and off too.

[mad murdock]

Reminds me of the old steel pulpwood drays people used to use with their old farm tractors back in the day, you could get a lot more wood out using one than just skidding on the ground. Nice craftsmanship on your build!

[LOGDOG]

Couldn't help but think that would make an awesome base for an ice fishing shack.  Nice job...

[Lud]

Stout work, Jim!

[Jim_Rogers]

Thanks for all your comments.
And I will post some pictures of the sleds with the stones on it at the retreat, tonight after dark.
I got a busy day today.

Jim Rogers

[Dave VH]

That's a cool idea.  It's got my mind going on how I can tweek it to work for what I need.  Thanks for the great documentation of the project.

[lumberjack48]

Reminds me of the days when i help my father build a dray for the horse, cutting the bolt holes with the t handle, 2" hand drill. The last one he built he sawed the runners out of a big birch with the chainsaw [ 7-19 Homey ].
He build it to hold 1/3 cord, we had 1 horse Ole King , about 1300 lbs.

[cutterboy]

Thanks Jim for the story and pictures. I know it takes a while to put that aLL together (your post) but I really enjoyed it. You did a really nice job on the scoots. I hope they were used many times after the rocks were moved, it would be a shame if they just sat outside and rotted.

Ralph

[customsawyer]

Nice work Jim.

[Knute]

That looks great! I milled some 2" white oak to rebuild my stoneboat. Not near as good as your setup, but may work ok for one or two logs. At least it will keep them out of the dirt when we have no snow.

[WDH]

Very informative.  It would seem like that it would be important to keep the scoot's weight to a minimum without sacrificing integrity to be able to haul really heavy logs.  Smaller tractors might have a hard time pulling the loaded scoot.

[Ironwood]

Nicework Jim


 I have found the hood off a 1973-79 Ford (inverted) to be perfect, the front edge creates a great "surfing" action you just gotta reinforce the attachment points you make.

 Ironwood

[Jim_Rogers]

Smaller tractors might have a hard time pulling the loaded scoot.

I ran into that problem many times. I'd load up two or three logs and then find out I couldn't pull the scoot.
and have to off load one or more to get it so I could.
After a while you get to understand what's too heavy and what you can move.

Also, I never mentioned dimensions but your scoot shouldn't be any wider then your tractor's rear wheels. This helps to get it narrow enough to fit through your woods trails.

My logger scoot was actually made with metal cross rails bolted between the runners. He worked in warehouse and got some "pallet rack" stock to use between the runners. This kept the top of the cross rails and the runners at the same height.
The problem with that is that these metal cross rails would sometimes get caught on stuff in the middle of the trail.
Ground clearance is a very important thing to remember in your design.

Also, someone mentioned that the runners should be chained separately to the pulling tractor. Well this is the way the old sawyer told us to do it. That way when the tractor turn a corner the pull chain pulls the outside runner more and this helps to steer it around the corner.
But my logger didn't understand this and we made the scoot with fixed cross rails.

Having the metal cross rails made it easy for me to move the scoot from job to job.

I used to use the front bucket of my tractor to lift the logs up and move them with my set up where I had the lifting tongs hanging from the bucket:



I would just drive up to the log and drop the tongs over the log and then roll the bucket back to get them to attach:





And when the log was hooked this way you could lift if and carry it:







For many years we would haul logs out to the landing by loading the scoot with this method. Drag it out, and then unload it. Rehook the chains to the back end of the scoot and drag it back into the woods.

The old sawyer was really happy to saw our logs as they were always clean.
He would tell us of sawing other's logs, what he would call "idiot choppers" and how dirty their logs were.

He told us he could saw thousands of bdft of lumber without having to stop and sharpen his saw blade. And with these other loggers he'd have to sharpen two or three times a day.

We learned by listening to him tell us stories about how they did it back "in the day" as they say.
And if it worked for them then we made sure it could work for us.

I used to yard logs for other sawmills as well. And they liked it that the logs were clean.
I could load the scoot into the back of my dump truck by picking it up with these logging tongs and carrying it up the trailer as I loaded the backhoe onto my trailer. And setting it into the back of my truck up and over the tailgate. Release the tongs and back up a bit and set the bucket down onto the trailer nose, without every getting of the driver's seat.

Unloading just about the same way.

I really enjoyed logging and carrying logs with my tractor.

I'll have to find the pictures in my mother's house of me and this tractor the day it was delivered to us in 1968. My father let me drive it off the delivery trailer before he even drove it.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

I just loaded up some more photos to my sawmill album showing how to hook up your logging tongs to the front bucket of your tractor.
And how to use them to lift and carry logs.

Here is the link to my album: http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2617

Jim Rogers

PS. I thought I had uploaded these before but I couldn't find them in my sawmill album.

[Tdawg]

We had a rig like that when I was a kid on the farm, we used it for loading up rocks we picked from the fields. We called it a stone boat.

Jim that tongs and bucket setup is freaking brilliant!!! If it wasn't so late, I'd go fire up the welder right now

[Jim_Rogers]

Thanks Tdawg.

I found a story I wrote about doing this in the folder with all of the pictures.

Here is the beginning part:

Years ago, before I started saw milling, I used to yard logs for different people and do some logging myself for the old timer who taught me saw milling.

When I first started, I used my father’s Case 580 tractor that had a 3-point hitch and a front bucket which was an attachment to it. We’d just hook a chain around the big block bar that went between the two front loader arms and let it hang down over the top curled edge of the bucket. We’d wrap the end of the chain around a log and lift it up and carry it and place it into a pile.

Well it wasn’t long until we started breaking chains as it slid over the top curled edge of the bucket. We got a welder to weld a large piece of stock onto the top edge of the bucket with a hole in it so we could attach an U-bolt shackle through the hole.



Then we attached a small lop of hardened chain to the shackle U-bolt.

 

Then from this short loop we’d hook a piece of hardened chain long enough to reach down to the cutting edge of the bucket and back up again. From this chain we attached another shackle threw a ring on the logging tongs we had borrowed from another guy.




Well, this setup worked well for a while until the guy wanted his tongs back.

Then I went out and got a set of tongs for myself. Well at that time I didn’t know the difference between “pulling tongs” and “lifting tongs” and there is a difference. And purchased a set of pulling tongs, you know you’ve got pulling tongs if there is a hook at the top and lifting tongs if there is a ring.

That’s why we used a second shackle in the picture above. Every time I’d lower the tongs over a log they’d fall off the chain. That got old real fast.

When you hang your logging chain and tongs like this and you roll your bucket back to the chain hits the cutting edge it forces the tongs to hang from left to right as you are sitting in the driver’s seat. This makes it easy to line up on logs, whether you’re in the woods on in the sawmill yard.

After this paragraph comes the pictures of the tongs over the log pile in my sawmill yard, that I posted above.
And the story goes on from there, again posted above.
But I wanted you to see how and know why we made this hook up on my bucket to carry logs.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Well I uploaded some 30 photos to a new album about using these scoots to move the stone at the retreat, that I told you about.
And I wrote up a nice story about it, including inserting pictures in order for you all to see and read.
When I pushed post, my one hour login time limit had expired and I lost the whole thing.
I hate when that happens.

You can see the pictures in my stone's album in my gallery.

I may do a write up again and post it.
But right now it's late and I need to go.
bye for now.

Jim Rogers

[BOBWOOD]

Nice post...appreciate all the photos...fancy unit there too...My father used to just spike together a bunch of crappy old poplar logs with some drift pins...(important to find a couple trees with a bend in just the right place)....then we just put a choker around each "ski" and pulled it with the old IH farm tractor...he called it a "stone boat" too...from his early days farming I guess...but we only  ever used it for hauling logs on...BOB

[Tdawg]

Nice post...appreciate all the photos...fancy unit there too...My father used to just spike together a bunch of crappy old poplar logs with some drift pins...(important to find a couple trees with a bend in just the right place)....then we just put a choker around each "ski" and pulled it with the old IH farm tractor...he called it a "stone boat" too...from his early days farming I guess...but we only  ever used it for hauling logs on...BOB

Maybe "stone boat" is just an Ontario thing, 

[beenthere]

..........
Maybe "stone boat" is just an Ontario thing, 

Grew up using one in IA, and built one to haul stones when clearing this land in WI (thanks to the glacier). Now no more hand digging as the forks on the FEL work so great.

But then we do have Ontario, WI 

[Tdawg]

..........
Maybe "stone boat" is just an Ontario thing, 

Grew up using one in IA, and built one to haul stones when clearing this land in WI (thanks to the glacier). Now no more hand digging as the forks on the FEL work so great.

But then we do have Ontario, WI 

Ha Ha, gotta love that glacial till...my back aches just thinking about it.

Ontario, Wisconsin...must be a beautiful place 

[pineywoods]

OK, down here we called them a slide. Put a box on it and becomes a "Hoover wagon" If you understand that, you're telling your age.

[rocksnstumps]

Jim,
That's quite the heavy duty sled. Those rocks musta been huge. As Beenthere mentions, I've heard them called stoneboats around here too and the size of the rocks they moved with those things with a couple of horses in the past is impressive. Not sure about copyright so here's a link and some dimensions similar to the ones I've seen stashed in an old shed or two.

http://www.inquiry.net/images/stoneboat.gif

[thecfarm]

The stone boat that we had was about 3 feet wide. The whole front was made out of metal and had a curve in the front. Had a big hole in the center to hook a chain too. Had a lip to bolt planks on too. All the planks rode on the ground,no skids.I never used it. Most of the time we would load up the woods trailer and haul them into a wet hole. The bigger ones was hauled off with the hyds on the back.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Thanks for posting this thread Jim Its a great idea Mate  I usually just fell n buck then bring a fork full of logs at a time out on the loader and load it strait onto the truck if its a small clear felling or wide space thinning job Ill usually try and leave them in double lengths but I have done 40' long logs on occasion but it all depends on the block what lengths i take out I have skidded out two or three tree lengths at a time with chains on the fork frame to lift the logs up off the ground to keep them clean too 

Regards Chris

[Jim_Rogers]

Gday

Thanks for posting this thread Jim Its a great idea Mate  I usually just fell n buck then bring a fork full of logs at a time out on the loader and load it strait onto the truck if its a small clear felling or wide space thinning job Ill usually try and leave them in double lengths but I have done 40' long logs on occasion but it all depends on the block what lengths i take out I have skidded out two or three tree lengths at a time with chains on the fork frame to lift the logs up off the ground to keep them clean too 

Regards Chris

I'm glad you brought up the idea of "doubles" we would do that all the time. Especially after we got the feel for what we could haul, and/or carry.

When we got to the landing and picked up a double (two logs already marked to be cut, but still attached to each other) we hold one of the two over the stack and cut them to separate.
 Then set the second one into the pile.

I used to like the idea of hauling out doubles when we were hauling pine.

Jim Rogers

[fuzzybear]

Jim thank you for the idea.
   I have been pouring over old bob sled photos and any other type of sled for that matter, I plan to build two of these in the spring. My truck can haul them behind it with no problem across the snow. The only thing I will be doing differently is cutting everything directly in the bush with just the chain saw.
   I figured everything out and am just waiting for the weather to warm up a bit more then head out and try to get the trail plowed out. This just reaffirmed my ideas on how to build it.
   I plan to use 14" green Aspen split in two with a flat cut onto the bottom to install 1/2" mylar plastic for running on snow. The runners will be in direct line with the tire on the truck. (@5.5' wide) Then I'm going to use dry 6" spruce logs for the cross bunks. I should be able to put 3 cords on each sled and pull them out together.
   I am going to use a trailer type hook up with a V coupler to attach to the sled and then to the truck with the ball. This will allow me to control the sleds a little easier down two slight grades. I have build many smaller versions of these sleds for pulling wood behind the snow machine. Seeing how you built this and what it's intended use is for, has reassured me.  If they did it 150 years ago with horses I should be able to do it with my bush truck.
Thank you again.
FB

[Jim_Rogers]

Many years ago, I read stories in the northern logger about teamsters and pulling logs out of the woods on sleds.

Many a teamster was killed by jumping off the load as the horse were running as fast as they could down hill with the sled loaded behind them.

They would talk about at night they'd take the horse manure out to the hills and put it there to warm the ground and melt the snow and ice so that the horses would get some traction to get up the hill.

And they'd talk about wetting down the flat runs to get it to ice up so that the sled would slide easier.

But the stories of the downhill stuff was very frightening.

On my machine, that I pulled the scoot we had, we had a huge concrete block on the back. And if the scoot was going down hill and the scoot got going faster then the tractor the log on the scoot would hit the concrete block and more or less stop. But I do remember a couple of times that the wheels were turning slower then the machine was going down the hill.

Jim Rogers

[thecfarm]

I can remember my Father telling me he use to use hay for the hill at our place to slow down the sled. Than having to carry the hay back up the hill when the hay would get to the bottom. But this was only one hill and not that big of one.

[Bump]

I've used them a lot and built many as we have a team of Belgian chunks. The boat is just that steel or planks just a flat bottom used a lot for picking field stone as it had great floatation and didn't rut up the field. Scoots used for hauling round bales fire wood people with 2 runners 8' long just a log sawn in half the smaller the bottom had the last 4' sawn the smaller front of the skids are cut bevelled up. When pulled loaded or turning the hitch would raise the front making it ride on the larger flats at the rear for turning and hard pulling. Across the front I keep a set of tire chains when there is a descent would drop the chains so they are under the runners to hold the load back many times just leaving them there if the load starts to run up the front of the runners lower useing the chains to hold it back.

[Meadows Miller]

Thanks Jim I learnt the Doubles one from My Dad ,Grandfather and Uncles  you can either saw a long log or dock it into shorts for whatever order you need to fill and the way I see it you gotta dock it in the bush or at the mill either way Mate

You had a tractor like that too its better than a ride at the show/fair mate