Author Topic: john deere 440a with a 4239d slight knock after rebuild (Read 1355 times)

duckslayingpro · « **on:** January 31, 2012, 07:43:49 pm »

Hi all. I just recently rebuilt my 4239d new main bearings, crank turned, new pistons, liners, etc. Done everthing to the Tech manual specs. Got the motor dropped back in the skidder. Bled the fuel lines fired right up sounded good. Ideling around for the first few minutes per break in instructions. After a 10-15 minute period I started hearing a slight knocking type sound. Almost sounds like it is in the head but cannot be sure. Any ideals would be greatly appreciated.

I thought maybe I had injection pump timing advanced to much so I retarded the pump. no change...
Thanks
duckslayingpro

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2012, 07:47:03 pm »

I shut the motor down after this knock started.
Also motor is not getting hot. only got to around 165 degree on temp gauge and no blowby or anything like that.
Thanks again.

Bobus2003 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:00:49 pm »

Is it Rocker Arm noise? I just rebuilt the 3304 CAT in our 518 at work and after about a half hour of running it got alot of rocker arm noise.. Don't quite have them adjusted right. But have well over 100hrs on it now without issue

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:08:08 pm »

I would say it would be possible. I am gonna try and listen to it closer to try and pinpoint but it does kinda have me stumped. The "knock" or sound does speed up with rpm if that makes any difference.

treefarmer87 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:18:43 pm »

check the timing and it might be a bent valve

sealark37 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:38:19 pm »

It could be a bad injector nozzle. The affected cylinder should be cooler than the others.

doghunter · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2012, 11:17:48 pm »

i had one do exactly the same you have an injector dribbling if you run it it will cook the affected cylinder pull the injectors and have them checked probably u broke loose a very tiny piece of debris in the fuel system and it is now in one of the injectors u may be able to pull the exhaust manifold and see which cylinder is smoking or spitting out raw fuel dont work it or you'll need a new cylinder kit for the affected cylinder I LEARNED THE HARD WAY

lumberjack48 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:08:59 am »

Quote from: sealark37 on January 31, 2012, 09:38:19 pm

It could be a bad injector nozzle. The affected cylinder should be cooler than the others.

When its running feel the exhaust manifold where it comes out of the cylinder, the cool one will be the one thats misfiring.

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:29:00 pm »

I didnt get to go out to.the skidder today. Hopefully i can tomorrow. But it may be saturday. I will check everything you guys have stated. Thanks for thr replies.

sandhills · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:24:03 am »

You'll laugh but this really does work, take a screwdriver and put the handle in your ear, put the other end on the top of each injector while the engine is running, if one isn't working you'll hear the difference, working injectors have a distinct sound. Only other thing I can offer is we had a camshaft go bad and it would make a "thumping" sound out of the air breather, one of the exhaust valve lobes went bad so it was trying to push everything out and pull in through the same valve, also created a lot of soot in the intake manifold.

lumberjack48 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:48:33 am »

The old mechanics used a Axe handle or something in the order to pin point a knock in a motor.
One end on the motor, the other end against your ear.

Ford_man · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2012, 06:27:07 pm »

I had a JD that broke a rocker arm it knocked and it also smoked when it pulled just a little.

snowstorm · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2012, 07:41:33 pm »

Quote from: duckslayingpro on January 31, 2012, 07:43:49 pm

Hi all. I just recently rebuilt my 4239d new main bearings, crank turned, new pistons, liners, etc. Done everthing to the Tech manual specs. Got the motor dropped back in the skidder. Bled the fuel lines fired right up sounded good. Ideling around for the first few minutes per break in instructions. After a 10-15 minute period I started hearing a slight knocking type sound. Almost sounds like it is in the head but cannot be sure. Any ideals would be greatly appreciated.

I thought maybe I had injection pump timing advanced to much so I retarded the pump. no change...
Thanks
duckslayingpro

did you use deere parts? already had the rings on the pistons in the liners? how much force did it take to seat the liners? were the wrist pin bushings miked? snap rings ok thet can be installed backwards most dont know that. if that motor came in that skidder new its a 219. you dont just advance the timing on a diesel no no no. you had the crank out are you sure the timing marks line up?

oil pump ok? how much pressure? did you do all the work? experinace? could be a dozen different things. if turningthe pump helped then maybe the timing marks are off

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:07:06 pm »

I checked on the fuel related testing injectors tested good. Looked at valves. They were way out of adjustment they had like an 1/8" of play. Adjusted them to spec. Started the motor. Knock was gone for a few minutes only to return. Pulled tge rocker arms off and pulled the pshrods. Everyone of them is bent. Will try new pushrods and checking valves again before startup. Will order pushrods monday. Hopefully they will be in quick. Thanks guys!

snowstorm · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:59:34 pm »

now the question is why did they bend?? how fast dose that motor turn? should be 2500rpm. had a 580 case bend one after the keepers came off the valve stem valve hit the piston made quite a mess

OntarioAl · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2012, 09:15:54 am »

If all the push rods are bent something is seriously wrong and before putting in new ones, I would pull the head and have a look and see if the valves are striking the pistons.
snowstorm poses some good questions

Quote from: snowstorm on February 02, 2012, 07:41:33 pm

Quote from: duckslayingpro on January 31, 2012, 07:43:49 pm
Hi all. I just recently rebuilt my 4239d new main bearings, crank turned, new pistons, liners, etc. Done everthing to the Tech manual specs. Got the motor dropped back in the skidder. Bled the fuel lines fired right up sounded good. Ideling around for the first few minutes per break in instructions. After a 10-15 minute period I started hearing a slight knocking type sound. Almost sounds like it is in the head but cannot be sure. Any ideals would be greatly appreciated.

I thought maybe I had injection pump timing advanced to much so I retarded the pump. no change...
Thanks
duckslayingpro
did you use deere parts? already had the rings on the pistons in the liners? how much force did it take to seat the liners? were the wrist pin bushings miked? snap rings ok thet can be installed backwards most dont know that. if that motor came in that skidder new its a 219. you dont just advance the timing on a diesel no no no. you had the crank out are you sure the timing marks line up? oil pump ok? how much pressure? did you do all the work? experinace? could be a dozen different things. if turningthe pump helped then maybe the timing marks are off
In any event I would not try to restart the motor until the cause of the bent push rods is determined.
My 2 cents
Thanks
Al

OntarioAl · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2012, 09:19:44 am »

Sorry folks
I messed up the quote and inserted my final comment in Snowstorms comments.
In any event I would not try to restart the motor until the cause of the bent push rods is determined.
My 2 cents
Thanks
Al

Shotgun · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2012, 09:47:35 am »

Al, you could also have edited your post in Reply #15 to make it meet your needs. Quite a few folks put their comments about the quote in the quote box. Don't feel bad, at least you recognized it. Good job.

Norm

pineywoods · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2012, 03:06:04 pm »

If all the pushrods are bent = camshaft - crankshaft timing. Timing gears or chain not installed properly. Very easy to do if the gears are spiral. Not saying how I know...Usually results in bent valves also.

snowstorm · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2012, 03:59:14 pm »

Quote from: pineywoods on February 05, 2012, 03:06:04 pm

If all the pushrods are bent = camshaft - crankshaft timing. Timing gears or chain not installed properly. Very easy to do if the gears are spiral. Not saying how I know...Usually results in bent valves also.

no timeing chain its gear driven it could off a bit it would explain a lot

lumberjack48 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:19:14 pm »

I would pull the head, most likely bent valve stems to, it all most has to be timing gears are set wrong.

I rebuilt a 292 Ford, when we went to start it, it blew out of the carb and sucked in the exhaust. [ don't laugh ] When i had put the timing chain on the motor was up side down.

kiko · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2012, 10:50:57 pm »

Multiple bent push rods? Cam out of time or engine was not timed properly during valve lash adjustment. Top center number one: Intake and exhaust cly 1 , Intake cly 2 ,Ex cly 3. Rotate crank 360 deg, Ex cly 2 , Intake cly 3, Intake and Ex cly 4. Not sure of lash but propably Intake .014 Ex .018. If cam is timed properly vales should be overlapped on whish ever cly is at TDC. cam off a couple of teeth would cause engine failure but not bent push tubes. Hope this helps.

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2012, 10:59:38 pm »

Well took head off and looked at valves everything looks to be good. A friend who used to be a john deere mechanic timed engine for me. I asked him about it. He seems to think the pushrods may have bent from the old block. I had to get a new crank, block, and head from schafers enterprises. The old block had a rod threw through it. News rods and everything installed in new block. I did reuse my pushrods and rocker arm and injection pump from old block. Oil presaure is holding around 30-40 lbs
I guess my next question is do you all think the pushrods could have.already been bent? The pushrods are not very visually bent. Rolling them on the table is only way i can see that they are bent.Wish i would have checked them before putting them in engine. Live and learn i guess... Guys thanks for all the help. This is a great forum!

sandhills · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:59:54 pm »

Those valves may resemble the pushrods in the fact it could be hard to tell if they are bent, the first thing I would do is "dummy" up the engine and crank by hand, obviously there should be no lock up what so ever. Did the top of the pistons show any sign of hitting the valves? Maybe not even possible on these engines?

kiko · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2012, 08:09:09 pm »

duckslayingpro, I forgot to mention this the other night. With the head off you can roll the engine untill the number one piston comes up. Now drop four new push tubes into the cam followers on clys 1 and 2. If the cam is timed correctly the first second and forth push tubes will be the same height with the third one sticking up higher( counting from the fan) If this does not happen, roll the engine one revolution and look at the push tubes again if you still don,t have the three of them level with third one higher your cam is out of time. And yes I think the tubes could have been bent from the previous engine failure, but if valve lash was set correctly to begin with it is unlikely that they bent more to give the 1/8 gap you spoke of before . So, what I am trying to say is a slight bend in a pushtube can usally be adjusted out but should not be run for any extended period.

kiko · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2012, 08:13:06 pm »

Duckslayer, I got it wrong The first three should be the same height with forth one sticking up higher. Did not catch the on the first proof read.

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2012, 09:25:44 pm »

Ok. Thanks. I will check just to be sure.

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2012, 10:02:37 am »

I looked at motor alittle closer before putting head back on. On number 3 piston (from the fan end) you could see where the valves have been kissing the piston. Next question is why? Valves not seated correctly from machine shop? Or something else? If motor was out of time shouldnt 2 pistons be getting toched by the valves at a time not just one? Thanks for any help!

kiko · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2012, 10:56:19 am »

diagnosing on the phone is hard and is harder still on a forum. You make a good point about only one piston being touched. If the cam timing was good, and valve adjusted correctly. Crown clearance is also good. Just a thought, there must be a part that is mismatched such as the cam. The block and head that were sourced seperatly may not match the cam, but I am just fishing now. If the push rods were to long and valve adjusted properly that would not cause the valves to stay open as the piston came up. Only cam lift to high or lift at the wrong time. At this point I gotta know, so don,t forget to lets us know the solution to the puzzle!

snowstorm · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2012, 12:23:56 pm »

valve has gotta be closed when piston is tdc. head been surfaced too many times?

so the valve is too far below the head. you never did answer jd parts ?? or maybe fit? turbo and non turbo pistons are different. turbo pistons are lower compression

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2012, 12:38:05 pm »

I couldnt tell you if valves are john deere or not. I bought a fully loaded head that had been redone through shafers in wolf lake, il. I dont know what they use. Yes my kit came from john deere. Thanks again for all the info

kiko · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2012, 12:40:16 pm »

snowstorm may be on to it, a thicker head gasket may be required if they make on for this application.

snowstorm · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2012, 12:45:19 pm »

Quote from: kiko on February 12, 2012, 12:40:16 pm

snowstorm may be on to it, a thicker head gasket may be required if they make on for this application.

when i get out to the garage latter i will look in my jd tech manual pretty sure the head can only be surfaced a couple times. i threw one away once because of that. valves stuck down too far

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2012, 01:12:27 pm »

Well i would appreciate the info. How could I tell if it has machined to much? My other question is if the head had been resurfaced to much woudnt all pistons be getting hit?

snowstorm · « **Reply #34 on:** February 12, 2012, 01:24:57 pm »

it would help if we had all the history on this thing. you said its a 239 the 440a used a 219. so what is it? what was done? how much was mix an match. come the whole story. could only one valve hit? maybe wrong connecting rod wrist pin bushing loose. in the head one valve seat replaced? seats ground more on the other cylinders?

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #35 on:** February 12, 2012, 01:53:21 pm »

It has a 4239 in it. It had a 4239 in it when i bought. Yes it would have had 4219 in it originally. The head and block I matched the casting numbers up with the new ones. The head was just supposed resurfaced with new valves, springs, etc. All connecting rods were replaced with same casting numbers. Wrist pin is tight. There wasnt any mixing everything was matched like it should be. Thank you.

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #36 on:** February 12, 2012, 02:09:45 pm »

Intake and exhaust valves are kissing the piston.

sandhills · « **Reply #37 on:** February 12, 2012, 04:13:55 pm »

Went back and read the original post, now I'm really digging here, on the cylinder that's hitting the valves is there any chance it has the wrong bearing on the connecting rod? Only reason I ask is that I overhauled a tractor once and yes it was my fault, I didn't plasti gauge the bearings, they sent the wrong ones and after warming up it would lose all oil pressure. Needless to say I got to go through the bottom end again, I can't hardly see how that would allow the piston to hit the valves but after ten or so minutes it could create a knocking sound. Just guessing, please let us know what you find.

snowstorm · « **Reply #38 on:** February 12, 2012, 05:25:55 pm »

this is for a 219 dont have a book for a 239. head can be surfaced a total of .030 distance from valve to head .057 and .037 .you can check cam lift with a dial indacator with the head on and valves adjusted. when the crank cam balance shafts were installed was the jd timing tool used?

? and a jd tech manual?

?? take lots of pictures need to see what we are working on

Bobus2003 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 12, 2012, 06:43:41 pm »

If you need a HeadGasket let me know.. I got a pair of them and a valve cover gasket that i don't need (Won't work on my 4045T). I'll let ya have them for shipping

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2012, 03:07:03 pm »

Bobus i may need that gasket. Not sure i may have one out in the garage. I always liked to keep a few extra things.
Well i found some pieces to the puzzle this morning before it started snowing on me. I checked my piston rise this morning and found #3 piston to be higher on one side. Dropped oil pan to find some metal slivers in it. Undone rod cap and pushed piston out to find the oil ring had broke and the bearing didnt look quite right. It doesnt look burnt or really like it spun just not quite like it should look. I guess cleaning things up, new oil ring, and bearing and check everything before putting it back together and hoping for the best.
But i really would like to know.why this happened in the first place? Everything went together smooth and easy. Evevything turned easy by hand once put togther? I just dont know any ideals??

pineywoods · « **Reply #41 on:** February 13, 2012, 04:02:56 pm »

I'm not familiar with that engine, but I have been bit by something similiar. Go back and check the crank gear to cam gear timing. If they are spiral cut as opposed to straight teeth, it's awfull easy to get it one tooth off. By any chance, did you replace either of those gears or the camshaft? Keyway off a tad would do the same thing...Putting everything back together without finding the cause not really a good option. Suggestion..Stick the pushrods for #3 back in the hole. Turn the crank by hand till #3 top dead center. Both pushrods should be all the way down. If not, you got a timing problem...

snowstorm · « **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:02:50 pm »

may be to late if you turn the motor over without the head on without bolting the lines down they can come up. all you need is 1 bolt ans a washer finger tight

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:24:57 pm »

i hadnt got a new bearing or started putting things back together yet. I have never turned motor over with starter with the head off. Have slowly by hand. Which lines are you talking about i sure dont want to mess anything up.

Ed_K · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:37:50 pm »

I think snowstorm is saying liner's I did a 315 cat motor yrs ago and lifted a liner just by turning by hand.With presure it took to press them in,I couldn't believe they could come back out.I had even wiped the insides with stp to lub the rings.

snowstorm · « **Reply #45 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:44:13 pm »

never did say i could type......cant

Ed_K · « **Reply #46 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:48:09 pm »

takes me awhile,wait till you get arthritist

snowstorm · « **Reply #47 on:** February 13, 2012, 09:03:13 pm »

wait? we are close to the same age. thats why i went ctl try to perserve myself

duckslayingpro · « **Reply #48 on:** February 13, 2012, 09:12:43 pm »

ok. i understand exactly what you are saying know. i will put head back on and fingertighten a bolt in before doing it again. i could see how it could pop one up. thank you for the info. glad it didnt come up before.

snowstorm · « **Reply #49 on:** February 13, 2012, 09:17:31 pm »

Quote from: duckslayingpro on February 13, 2012, 09:12:43 pm

ok. i understand exactly what you are saying know. i will put head back on and fingertighten a bolt in before doing it again. i could see how it could pop one up. thank you for the info. glad it didnt come up before.

you dont have to put the head on until all is fixed jusy 1 bolt and washer to hold each cylinder liner so they cant rise if the crank is turned

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Author Topic: john deere 440a with a 4239d slight knock after rebuild (Read 1355 times)