Help/advice in choosing a 3pt grapple for small time tractor logging?

[Piston]

There isn't a boatload of information on 3pt hitch logging grapples (or would "bucket load" be more appropriate?)  so I thought I would start a thread to discuss them before I make a purchase....or rather, to see if I SHOULD make a purchase 

My specific uses for the logging grapple, will be skidding out small to medium sized pines (10"-18" DBH) from my 30 acres in Central NH.  At first I will be clearing the land for a driveway (700'-800') and a building lot, roughly 5 acres.  Then it will be general thinning from there on out, with some occasional clear cuts of less than one acre to make small fields. 
I will also skid out smallish (less than 15"DBH) hardwoods for firewood.  The Pine that is large enough will be used for my mill.  I'll probably burn the smaller pines.
Obviously, with the small amount of land I'm clearing (compared to some of you guys!) I don't NEED a log grapple to do the work, it's more of something I want, but I'd like to get something that fits my needs the best if I'm gonna be spending the money. 
I've looked into a skidding winch as well but that is sort of another subject, and I haven't ruled it out yet. 
One of the reasons for the skidding grapple instead of winch, is that I won't have any problems getting right up to the felled trees, meaning I don't need to winch them out of the woods, and I like the idea of not getting off the tractor, and just backing up to the log, closing the grapple, and driving away. 

I've looked at the following so far:  (not in person, just online:D)

Wallenstein LX5100
LX5100 Log Grapple - Wallenstein

Wallenstein LX 480
LX480 Log Grapple - Wallenstein

Valby SGR 48
SGR48

Addington grapple (smaller of the two)
Grapples, Addington Equipment

I've seen some pics of the Iron and Oak one
and the 'log skidder' that Northern Hydraulics sells. 

Some of my considerations are:
I will be putting it on my 45hp Kubota, my rears are filled with 1,100lbs of RimGuard, and I will have my FEL grapple on. 

I am so far leaning towards either the Wallenstein or the Addington.  I haven't received any info on pricing of the Addington but I like that it is built in NH and I wouldn't have to pay shipping. 

Wallenstein:
The low weight of the unit worries me, I know the less weight the grapple weighs, the heavier log I can pick up.  The worry is, when I don't have a lot of weight in the grapple, will it be too light when I'm doing FEL work with my FEL grapple?  I will still be lifting a lot of stumps, small logs, and piling trees/brush, and don't want the rear end to be too light.   
I like that the the Wallenstein grapples have the full swiveling grapple.  I don't like how 'curved' the LX5100 is, it looks like it would be tough for me to find a good place to mount my winch.

The Lx4800 is discontinued, and probably tough to find, but looks like something I'd really like, except for the super low weight.  The price would be better since the few I've found are discounted since they're the 'old style' now.  I also like that there are a lot less 'curves' than the new LX5100, the more straight sections there are, the easier it is for me to weld back together if something breaks. 

Valby SGR48
I like how the pivot point is close to the tractor.  I don't like how the grapple itself doesn't swivel side to side, and especially back and forth.  I think the more 'linkage' there is the better, and the more rigid things are the more chance of shock loading my top link, in turn putting a lot more shock load on the top link casting, where it attaches to the tractor. 
The valby doesn't have a real 'grapple' on it, it's more some shaped steel with a hydraulic ram, rather than something I can detach and use on the backhoe. 

Addington
I think the Addington is a great looking grapple from what I see, but it might be almost TOO heavy duty for me.  Plus I don't think I can weld the T-1 steel if something breaks?  But then again, it looks heavy duty enough to where it wouldn't break.  This might be a little TOO much for my little tractor.  I also don't know if I can detach that grapple very easy. 

I think the perfect grapple for me would be a cross between the Wallenstein LX4800 and the Valby SGR 48, with a little extra weight on it.  I like the grapple on the Wallenstien with the full swivel design, and I like the hinge point near the tractor on the Valby. 



-I'd like to be able to weld a 2" receiver hitch to the grapple frame, so I can use my small winch with it. 

-I'd like it to weigh close to 500lbs, although on the other hand, the less stress on the top link the better, but I still want good traction, this is tough trade off. 

-I'd like the actual grapple (the lifting point) to be as near the tractor as possible, since the further it is away, the more stress on the top link.

-I'd like the grapple to be the traditional bypass grapple like the Wallenstein, this way if I ever decide to in the future, I could easily add quick disconnects to the grapple itself, detach it from the log skidding frame, and attach it to the backhoe for log handling, I could see this coming in very useful around the sawmill and log splitter.

Cost is sort of an issue, I'd say more 'value' is the biggest issue over cost.  I don't mind spending more if I'm getting a lot more for my dollar.  I'll call some places today and check on some pricing and availability. 


Can anyone who has any experience with (or has done a lot of research) give there opinions on what may work well for my situation? 

What are your thoughts and opinions on the different styles? 

If I am aware of the stresses put on the top link, and don't beat the heck out of my tractor and try doing wheelies with a large log on the back, do you think there is a high risk of doing some serious danger to the tractor top link connecting area?  This is really my biggest concern.

 

[thecfarm]

I know what you mean about backing right up to the log and driving off,but will you always be able to this this 3-4 years using it a way that you did not realize? I probably could use one as I am in the process of clearing a grown up pasture. But at times I want to bring more than one out and than I would have to get to another tree and try to pick it up too. This is tree length with limbs and all. Kinda hard to get beside another tree with out backing up to it or running over the tree to get close enough to it with the limbs still on,it might be kinda hard. You do mention using the grapple to pick up a log in the woods. I would not really be able to do this in my woods. Too many smaller trees that I would not want to run over, some I could not run over anyways or should say want to because of damage to the tractor. But if you can afford a grapple and a 3pt winch,buy both. I hauled out ALOT of big pine with my winch and never did a thing to the top link. But have heard of some that had trouble. You could always keep a good size log in your grapple too just for more weight. I really like that grapple.

[beenthere]

Piston
It's a question I'd put to the Kub dealer, and learn if warranty work would be done if any damage was done. Some are built for it, but not all.  If a back hoe is available for your tractor, then likely hauling logs on the 3 ph will not be more stressful to the frame and castings where the top link attaches. Have seen where they can break between the feet but that was a different brand (and not green ).

[ahlkey]

The advantage of the 3pt winch over a grapple is that you can get to all your trees in difficult/narrow areas where you just can't get close with your tractor. Without having your tractor set up for logging off-trail you will have your share of breakdowns.  I use my farmi-winch together with snatchblocks to lift and pull from all directional areas and with them you can double your pull capacity.  It is easy to drag 3-5 decent size trees to the landing as well which might not be the case with the grapple.   In the early years before the winch I built a 3pt log platform with forks.  I used a hydraulic top link on it and I could carry a lot of logs cut 8ft or longer to the landing.  It worked great and only cost me very little to make.  However, with the farmi-winch I don't know how I could work without it today.  You could probably find a used model for your tractor for less than $1500 and there is just not a lot of things that can go wrong with them.  I also use a 75 ft extension so I can reach out over 240 ft when needed.  Hope this helps a little....

[dlabrie]

Where in NH is your property? I am located just north of Plymouth.

I have been dragging firewood logs out of the woods with my B2910 for years just using a chain hooked to my 3ph. Sometimes it isn't too pretty  Once I get a mill, I'll have to take more care with the logs. I am thinking along the lines of a log arch at the far end and the front chained to my 3ph.

[Jim_Rogers]

When we were logging back in the 80's we didn't have anything but a tractor with a front bucket. Just a "snow" bucket not a dirt digging front bucket.
If you've seen my forklift attachment in any of my pictures you've seen my front bucket.
And as this machine was bought, just to plow and lift snow back in 1968, we just had a set of heavy arms on the back which we set a large concrete block onto, that attached to our top link, as we did have removable three point hitch arms. We had a mower and a York rake to do yard work with in the summer time.
But back to logging.
When my logger wanted to build his house, a log cabin out of stacked oak beams, he went to a woodlot and cut down 300 trees over two weeks. And cut these trees into 360 logs, leaving the tops basically untouched.
He worked in a factory full time then and only did this work on nights and weekends.
I was in the firewood business then and I work on these tops and cut them up for firewood.
When we started pulling out his logs from his lot, he got a real long cable and one pulley to use to attach to the log and snake them out of the lot to the skid trail.
This was a lot of work pulling the cable by hand out to the log and then rolling the log onto the choker and then pulling it out around other trees and stumps.
We did this the first day, as this was what he wanted to do.
He didn't understand that with a little work, you could drive right up to every log and pick it up.
While he was at work one day, I did this and I would move his logs out of the way, and get to the tops. I created a small off skid trail path to every log/tree/top.
Back then we were selling 4' lengths and we'd cut the tops into four footers and load them into the bucket and drive to the truck at the street. Sometimes we'd stack the four foot tops pieces into the bucket so we could just drive to the truck, with no tailgate on and set the load into the back of the truck. Thus, no hand stacking to load the truck.
With large pieces we may have to hand stack.

So the sawyer showed up one day to pick up the first load of oak logs from his site. He was mad as Hell-o when he saw how dirty these logs were from them being dragged with the cable.
He ran an old Lane #1 circular sawmill with no de-barker.

He suggested we build a sled to haul the oak logs on to prevent them from getting dirty.
He showed us some pictures he had and we made one according to his ideas/pictures/drawings and sketches. He called it a scoot.

It had hook spots on each end. You dragged it into the woods by the back end. Then you unhooked your tractor from it and then lifted the logs from where the fell and carried them a few feet over to the scoot.
After you had several on the scoot you'd attach the pull chain to the front end. And you'd pull the scoot to the landing.
We did this for the entire lot, and the sawyer was very happy.

We used this scoot for many years.

I'm sorry I don't have a drawing of one that we used. Or pictures of one that we used, but I did build something similar for a fellow who wanted to move some large granite stones at a retreat.
And I built two of these for him. A large one and a small one. Both were basically the same design as a logging scoot except that they had more cross timbers. And these cross timbers were very large.

They worked for the project he wanted them for and I don't know if they every were used again or not.

I did photograph the entire project of building them. And I was present when they used them to move the large stones at the retreat.

My advice to you, is to save your money, and just build a scoot for hauling your logs.
I can make up a plan for you, and you can build your own for short money and you can do the same thing, as we did. Which was what they did years and years ago before skidders and grapples.

I don't have time right now to upload some pictures but I will later on tonight after dark.

Jim Rogers 

[dlabrie]

Jim,
I'd love to see plans for a scoot!

David

[bill m]

I have the Iron and Oak grapple and it works great.

 
I added a winch to it, they did not offer one as an option when I bought it. It opens to about 52 inches and closes to about 3. I don't think you will have a problem with the top link. Because the lifting point is back behind the lower lift arms your tractor will stop lifting before it can break the top link. Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

[Jim_Rogers]

Jim,
I'd love to see plans for a scoot!

David

David:
I don't want to hijack this thread about grapples, so I'll start another one here in forestry and logging after I upload some pictures to an album in my gallery.
I'll name the album Scoot pictures.
Also, we pronounce it like it rimes with shoot, but I'm not completely sure if I'm even spelling it right.

Jim Rogers

PS. I just posted the thread about making the rock sleds/scoots.

[Piston]

I know what you mean about backing right up to the log and driving off,but will you always be able to this this 3-4 years using it a way that you did not realize? .....

This is a good point that I didn't really think of, whether or not I would use it long term.  I like the idea of the winch being more 'universal', it can pretty much do everything a grapple can, but a grapple can't do everything the winch can. 

Piston
It's a question I'd put to the Kub dealer, and learn if warranty work would be done if any damage was done....If a back hoe is available for your tractor, then likely hauling logs on the 3 ph will not be more stressful to the frame and castings where the top link attaches....

No warranty on my tractor as it's pushing 10yrs old now but good idea to check with the dealer and see what they would recommend.  There is a backhoe available and quite honestly, I think I'm more paranoid about doing damage than I need to be.  I don't imagine that the trees I will be skidding out will be any more heavy than a heavy duty brush hog that my tractor is rated for, and those also put a lot of stress on the top link when bouncing around as the weight is pretty far back.


 

You could probably find a used model for your tractor for less than $1500 and there is just not a lot of things that can go wrong with them.

If I could find one that would match what I'm looking for in that price range I'd be all over it.  I haven't been able to find any that cheap but if anyone knows of anything available I'm all ears..

so I'll start another one here in forestry and logging after I upload some pictures to an album in my gallery.
I'll name the album Scoot pictures.

PS. I just posted the thread about making the rock sleds/scoots.

Jim, I checked out your thread with the Scoot pictures, looks like a neat idea and thanks for taking the time to post the detailed pics, I like the metal runner on the underside, I bet that works excellent on frozen ground as well. 

I have the Iron and Oak grapple and it works great....


I added a winch to it, they did not offer one as an option when I bought it. It opens to about 52 inches and closes to about 3. I don't think you will have a problem with the top link. Because the lifting point is back behind the lower lift arms your tractor will stop lifting before it can break the top link. Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

Bill,
That was the exact pic I was referring to of the Iron and Oak model!    I knew I saw it somewhere on here.  Your setup is actually my 'dream' setup for what I do.  Between the tractor, grapple, logging trailer/grapple, and tire chains, I can't think of a better setup for the woods.  (Although, do you have a FEL grapple as well? )

Can you tell me more about how you like yours?  Or what you do or don't like about it?  I'll ask some specifics as well:
What dealer did you buy it from? 
What is the rough cost new nowadays?
Do you think there is any benefit to having it swivel side to side right up close to the tractor like the Valby model? 
How much does it weigh? 

I just found this model on they're website, is this pretty much the same as yours?
Long Link


The reason I'm leaning towards a grapple for the rear end, isn't so much a decision based on what I will use more in the long term, it's more of what would be most useful for me while I'm clearing the land.  In my specific situation, I think I could benefit a lot from having a rear grapple.  I know it sounds 'lazy' but I like the idea of backing up to the log/tree, grabbing a hold of it, and driving away. 

I'll post some pics of the trees I will be clearing in case it helps. 

I'm also leaning towards a grapple because of the price, although some of the ones I posted are just as much as a new winch, there are others that are much cheaper. 

[Piston]

Here are some pictures. 
All the small stuff will be mulched and the smaller trees will be piled for burning/firewood with the FEL grapple.  The larger trees (and obviously that is a relative term , there aren't many 'large' trees whatsoever) will be skidded full length to where I will be piling them for either firewood or milling. 

 

 
 


  



  



  



  



  



  



 

 

 

[Piston]

Where in NH is your property? I am located just north of Plymouth.

Alton Bay

Also, I do use a log arch as well, which works excellent for the larger logs that I want to keep off the ground.  I built mine and documented it here:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45388.0/all.html

[Piston]

Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

Bill, I'd like to take you up on that offer.  I'll be busy with work and vacation over the next month or so but maybe sometime in March I'll send you a message and see if the offer is still on the table    I'd love to see that setup anyways!

[g_man]

Your site looks fairly flat and open which is good for the grapple but personally I would be more comfortable having a winch. Cutting that many trees you certainly  will get some hung up or fall the wrong way. The winch will allow you to deal with these easier and much safer. It will also allow you to pull some leaners the way you want. It won't be long before you get alot of junk laying on the ground that you might get tired of driving over or moving with the grapple rig.

[Stephen Alford]

   Hey Piston, will you be working for yourself or for someone else ?  If it is on your property you will have a chance to take your time and develope the techniques that best suits your situation.  Decisions as to what to do;when,where and how are yours to make on the spot .  If there is an employer as such their priorities, cash flow and a host of other variables will make things more difficult.  Spending some time with Bill would be a tremendous opportunity for sure.
    I have had the grapple and tractor in the pics in my gallery for some 20 years. It was built to carry 8' wood from thinnings.  The wood was hand cut and trail piled.  Couple of surprises were how well it handled the slash to place on skid trails and backing up slopes to remove wood. It was about 3000 to build. The nice thing about anything that fits on a 3pt hitch it does not lose its value over time if it is kept in good repair.

 
     As a side note did, did a job last summer with a buddy who had one of these small backhoes.  Needed a live thumb but one of those and that tractor of yours would be a sweet combination for urban work.   

 

[Piston]

Your site looks fairly flat and open which is good for the grapple but personally I would be more comfortable having a winch. Cutting that many trees you certainly  will get some hung up or fall the wrong way. The winch will allow you to deal with these easier and much safer. It will also allow you to pull some leaners the way you want. It won't be long before you get alot of junk laying on the ground that you might get tired of driving over or moving with the grapple rig.

You state some good points in favor of a winch, and honestly if money were no object that is probably what I would buy.  I'm not worried about getting the trees hung up though, with the backhoe pushing and the size of those trees, it won't be a problem.  I am aware of the extra safety precautions when doing this. 

The slash on the ground could become a problem.  I haven't decided yet the best way to handle that, maybe you guys can help? 
My initial plan is to knock down the tree, skid the entire tree to one central location where the brush will go, stop, get off the tractor, limb it, cut the stump off, cut the top off, get back on the tractor, and skid the remaining log over to the log pile to be loaded on the trailer, or cut up into firewood down the road.  Then go back and get another one.  This would minimize the 'mess' on the forest floor. 
The other option, is to limb them where they fall, and have a mulcher mulch up all the slash when he comes.  Not sure which would be better?  I don't like messes! 


Stephen,
That is a nice setup you have in that pic.  How big is that tractor?  I wouldn't be comfortable loading up my top link like that on my little Bota.  Yours is obviously much more stout than mine!  I like it!  (as a side note, I'm already wishing I went up another frame size with the tractor )
I will be working for myself, for my future house.  This is my property and I do have the time to create a good plan.  I like your outlook and advice to do what suits me best 

I do really like Bills setup, although, I think his is getting old from too much use, so he should probably sell it and buy a new one.  I could help him out by buying it from him   

I do have a lot to learn, that is for sure!  Keep the suggestions coming.   

[Piston]

I was able to get some prices.  Here is what I was quoted or found advertised online:

Wallenstein LX5100 - $2,400

Wallenstein LX 480 - $1,900 on sale as discontinued model, but it's pick up only and its in Kentucky, too far for me

Valby SGR 48 $1,400 - Most appealing price, but I just don't like the design.  I like the hinge near the tractor, but other than that, it doesn't seem like I'm getting a good 'value' with this grapple.  It doesn't look as rugged as the others, and I really don't like the rigid design of the grapple, also, can't detach the grapple and use with the backhoe if I wanted to in the future. 

Iron and Oak - $3,600 according to their website - Too expensive for me, but I really like the design.  It seems simple, rugged, easy to fix or modify, easy to mount my winch on, good weight, and I like the grapple.  So far this is my new favorite.  I would love to come across a used one of these!
Although the price is a lot of money for me, I do think this is a better "value" than some of the others.
Iron & Oak Commercial Log Splitters - PRODUCTS

Addington ?
This is one heavy duty grapple!  I spoke with the company for a quote, and actually I couldn't get a price out of him.  The reason is that the ones on the website (which he told me was outdated) are built for commercial use, and are way more than I would need.  He said those ones are close to $8,000, but that he was working on a smaller, lighter model for tractors my size, even though he advertises one for my size on the site.  I was actually confused after talking with him about the price, seems like the one he is working on that would be good for me, would be around $4,000-$4,500.  I'd LOVE to come across a used one of these for a good price, seems like you couldn't kill the thing if you tried.  However, its more than I need, and way more than I'm willing to spend.  This thing seems like you could sharpen the grapple edges and use it as a tree shear!


I have found that some of these grapples (Addington in particular) are obviously MORE expensive than a skidding winch.  I won't spend that kind of money on one. 
I'm now considering buying a grapple, as in the grapple head only, and building my own.  Not so much for cost savings (well that too) but also because I can't seem to settle on one, I don't "love" any.  I'm thinking if I take each attribute that I like from each model, and put them all together, I could come up with my own ideal grapple for my uses.  I also enjoy building things like this, but I'm not sure I have the time....or skill! Anyways, I'm considering it. :laughing:


Winches: I was quoted $5,000 for the Farmi 501, which is what I would get if I were to get one. 

I also looked into the Wallenstein FX90, $3,900.  Much better price point and I would probably buy this over the Iron and Oak skidder for $3,600.  Only problem is, I really can't spend that much money to begin with.  I do think the FX90 seems like a good value though.  I will also keep my eyes open for one of these winches, on the used market.

[Jim_Rogers]

The slash on the ground could become a problem.  I haven't decided yet the best way to handle that, maybe you guys can help? 
My initial plan is to knock down the tree, skid the entire tree to one central location where the brush will go, stop, get off the tractor, limb it, cut the stump off, cut the top off, get back on the tractor, and skid the remaining log over to the log pile to be loaded on the trailer, or cut up into firewood down the road.  Then go back and get another one.  This would minimize the 'mess' on the forest floor. 
The other option, is to limb them where they fall, and have a mulcher mulch up all the slash when he comes.  Not sure which would be better?  I don't like messes! 

Saying that you'll drag a tree whole through the woods to a spot is one thing. Actually doing it is another.
 
You'll soon learn exactly how hard it is to do that.

When you drop a large tree the crown is wide, and dragging a tree with the crown attached is not easy. All the limbs will rub against other trees along the trail and damage them.

You intend to mill these logs? Dragging them in the dirt will be the worst thing you can do.

You need to carry them and keep the clean. You'll spend so much time changing dull blades from sawing through dirt on your logs. And/or so much time cleaning your logs that you'll soon learn to keep them clean in the first place.

Cut the limbs off where they lay, stack by hand if you need to. To get them out of your way.
Plan your harvest so that you don't have to, of course unless you're clearing your lot for building.
Cut your logs to length were they land and pick them up and carry them out to a sled and drag the sled to the landing, not the logs.

You'll save so much money and time. Make is easy for yourself.
You can burn brush in NH if the day is right, unless you need the chips.

When we harvested logs for sale or for my loggers house, we started in the back of the lot and laid the trees down toward the back of the lot. Butts toward the trail. Work your way out so that you're not going to run over brush or need to move it while you're harvesting your logs. Brush can sit and you can get back to it later, when you have time.

I can't tell you how much money I spend repairing my tractor from running over brush thinking that it was "OK" to do that. Branches will curve up and get into all parts of your machine. You should not drive over brush or stumps. You're just asking for trouble.

Keep reading and keep asking questions.

Jim Rogers

[beenthere]

One trick to drag a tree out and not have the limbs reaching out to brush hard against other trees along the skid trail is to partially cut through those limbs along the main trunk (stem) with the chainsaw.
 About an 80% cut will let the limb fold back and follow as long as the remaining wood holds for the drag.

Works good too when winching out logs and tops to save hooking up to each and every piece of limbwood.

[thecfarm]

I just cut the brush up into short pieces when they are still on the trees. I cut most of any branches I leave in the woods 2-3 feet long. The shorter the better. Makes for a nice clean looking job too.Most crotched limbs be it 2,3,4 ways,gets cut too. Yes,this does take alot of time,but I don't have branches sticking up in the air.I take my branches down to about 1-2 inches.Than I haul them out of the woods. But sometimes I saw the limbs off and go back in with a trailer to get the limb wood. That is really the best way I found out as far as digging the ground up and barking trees up. But it's a REAL slow way to get wood.Hauling out limbs and all with any size to the trees will really dig the ground up. When I do haul limbs and all sometimes I have to stop and rehook because one limb is acting like a plow.

[bill m]

One trick to drag a tree out and not have the limbs reaching out to brush hard against other trees along the skid trail is to partially cut through those limbs along the main trunk (stem) with the chainsaw.
 About an 80% cut will let the limb fold back and follow as long as the remaining wood holds for the drag.

Works good too when winching out logs and tops to save hooking up to each and every piece of limbwood.

I don't think damaging trees will be much of a problem. He is clearing the land not doing a select cut.
Piston,the offer to see my grapple/equipment in operation is good for any time it works for you. I have had mine for about 9 years and they have made some improvements to the one they offer now. I can give you a demo of what it can do.

[beenthere]

........I don't think damaging trees will be much of a problem. He is clearing the land not doing a select cut.
............

Very true.
More for general comment for a way to take some of the top out when limbs annoyingly catch on other trees and slow down removal.
Leaving them partially severed keeps them flowing along the drag line and saves hooking onto them individually or going back down a steep slope to retrieve them (or even back into the thick brush )
More for woods cleanup and utilization of small limbs.

[timbuck2]

After 30+ years of doing exactly what you describe i would offer this advice.  Get yourself a good winch along the lines of a Farmi 350 whatever # they are now,  (that is the right size for your tractor)   You can hook up and pull alot faster and pick trees out of the keepers.   Also do you have any uphill pull and do you expect to work this lot in the winter on frozen ground?  Grapple can't drop A hitch and go up over ice or uphill.   I've sreiously considered a grapple but unless you are packing 65 to 75 hp or more I fail to see the advantage,   nothing against the set-up and the guy with the Iron-Oak looks great, if you are chipping there is an advantage, or just clearing house lots, ok.   I'd say over the years 80% of what I get is selective cut and 20% house lots clearing,   As a small logger  I learned early on to keep big premium wood lined up. I do have a skidder but alot of times I find myself out on the JD tractor prepping 4 or 5 hitches for my TJ.  It's just so much faster and the tractor winch pulls out so easy.Over the years I've burned thru 7 or 8 tractor winches, the Farmi 351 I have now is great but I had a Norse double reduction on a 65hp Ford that would pull the snot out of Godzilla.   That was before I had the TJ tho.  Good Luck and feel free to ask up.

[customsawyer]

I have never used  a grapple but a customer of mine had one ( don't know the brand) but he ended up mounting shocks on each side as this allowed the tractor to turn better.

[thecfarm]

timbuck2,Norse double reduction? Was that a 3 pt winch? Don't hear much about them. I have the one with the butt plate that will tip up.

[Piston]

I don't think damaging trees will be much of a problem. He is clearing the land not doing a select cut.

That's correct.  I will not be skidding the logs through tight skid trails, or dropping individual trees in the middle of many others as I would with a select cut.  For those types of operations I would be looking for a winch, however, if I was planning on milling those logs, I wouldn't use a winch either, I would use my log arch.  As Jim stated, I don't want a bunch of mud/dirt on my logs that I will be milling, I'll go through a lot of blades that way. 
So for the logs that I'll want to mill, I'll carry them in my FEL grapple, and if they're too big, I'll pick them up with my log arch.  I don't think there is a log on the property that I won't be able to carry in my FEL, a full tree, yes, but a single log, no.

This picture is very typical of the size trees I will be clearing.  These trees were knocked over with my tractor, and picked up whole with the grapple, and piled here.  I did this just to see how tough it would be when I clear the land, I wanted to get a taste of what I would be up against.

 

 



Here is a picture of how I will carry sawlogs to where I will stack them.  Note that none of the sawlogs I will get off this property are going to be this large.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Here is another option for the smaller trees.   
 

 



I can do a lot with the FEL grapple alone, and honestly, as I said earlier, I don't NEED a rear grapple.   

Now that I see the prices are fairly high for the amount I will use it for, I am considering building one. 


I think the skid is an excellent idea for someone who will be skidding logs long distances, and especially through tight trails. 

[Piston]

I have never used  a grapple but a customer of mine had one ( don't know the brand) but he ended up mounting shocks on each side as this allowed the tractor to turn better.

I like that idea.  That's the one thing I really like about the Valby type, is the hinge close in to the tractor. 

[Piston]

After 30+ years of doing exactly what you describe i would offer this advice.  Get yourself a good winch along the lines of a Farmi 350 whatever # they are now,  (that is the right size for your tractor)   You can hook up and pull alot faster and pick trees out of the keepers.   Also do you have any uphill pull and do you expect to work this lot in the winter on frozen ground?  Grapple can't drop A hitch and go up over ice or uphill.   I've sreiously considered a grapple but unless you are packing 65 to 75 hp or more I fail to see the advantage,   nothing against the set-up and the guy with the Iron-Oak looks great, if you are chipping there is an advantage, or just clearing house lots, ok.  ......  Good Luck and feel free to ask up.

Timbuck,
I value your advice and opinions.  I do think a winch would work great as well, and I do want to get one someday.  I think the grapple would work great short term, and when I'm done with the lot clearing I could sell it and buy a winch. 
I've been keeping my eyes peeled on craigslist for a used one    If I could find a good deal on one I will jump on it. 
I'm mostly going to be using the rear grapple just for clearing this house lot.  After that who knows, it will depend on how good it works for my specific needs. 

[Piston]

I'm learning a lot from all your posts.  I'll give you some quick history of my land. 

My grandfather bought the land back in '62.  I love the guy to death, but he doesn't know a thing about the woods.  He bought it from his violin teacher.  He grew up in the city and his passion in life is music.  He moved up to the woods of NH not because he wanted some land to take care of and call his own, but because he wanted a peaceful place where him and his music friends could play their classical musical instruments.  He wanted to play his violin outside on the lawn and not hear a single car drive by.  When he bought the place, there was 3 other homes between his house, and town.  The roads were all dirt and too muddy to pass in the spring time.  Since then of course times have changed, the roads (for the most part) have been paved, and a whole lot more homes have been built in the area. 
Not knowing about forestry or anything related, he was approached by a logger to log off his land, and put some money in his pocket.  Not knowing any better, he didn't check around, he just took the guys word for it.  This was back sometime in the '70s.  The logger brought in his equipment and logged his land, clearcutting it for the most part, leaving a mess. 
He sold off the logs, loaded up his equipment, and told my grandfather he would send him a check for the logs after he got paid......
He was never heard from again, my grandfather never saw a dime from the harvest, his land was left a mess, and he realized the mistake he just made by making a handshake deal.  This still angers the heck out of me just thinking about it.   

Since he didn't know about forestry or anything related, he never touched any of the land, aside from his one acre or so that he keeps mowed.  Whatever sprouted out of the ground after logging, is what grew and stayed.  A lot of the pines that are there now are from old abandoned fields, and they took over.  The soil isn't all that rich and the trees were always tightly packed together.  The crowns of the trees are very narrow and not very healthy looking. 
I'm not sure if this is why the trees are so small after 40yrs or so, or if it has to do more with the soil, the clearcut, or a combination of many things. 

I don't have one person in my family that has ever done any type of logging, milling, timber framing or anything, so I was never able to learn from them.  My father is the only person in my family that comes close, he ran heavy equipment for years when he was younger, however not in the forest or anything like that. 
I've learned almost everything I know from either this forum, or online, or reading many many books, and talking with anyone I meet that has similar interests, and at this point, I have a decent amount of experience under my belt....considering the lack of opportunity I had to learn it 

It is for that reason that all I know is what I read, and experience on my own.  I appreciate all the tips and advice that you guys are giving me! 

One reason I am leaning towards a grapple for this project, is because I think it looks like 'fun' to operate.  I enjoy being in the woods and clearing the land.  I like hydraulics, I like having the right tools for the job, and I like using them.   
Unlike most of you, this is just a hobby of mine, but I like to think my hobby saves me money over having someone else do it.  I've never made any money using my tractor or other equipment, maybe I should start trying to do that to justify all the money I have into it 

[timbuck2]

@ thecfarm, Ya that was the larger Norse winch, instead of one set of chain drive gears it had two, step down and step down again, so to speak.  Had it on a Ford 6610 4x4, but it had a real fancy cab, which was a mistake,  the rear window exploded and sounded like a shotgun went off.    I have to look and see where Chesterville is, during the summer I,m up on Flagstaff Lake alot.

[Al_Smith]

Depends on what you have to work with I suppose .My buddy just bought a set of log  tongs and put them on the drawbar of a three point hitch .

I just choker them up tight and drag them out for something like a ton or so with a little Fergueson .A little tractor you don't run out of power you just can't get traction or else you can't steer the thing if you do get a bight of the dirt .Chains help a little bit .Even with chains my limit is about a ton and half dragging out a log at that it's still a pain in the buttocks .Front end of the tractor a foot off the ground you have to steer the darned thing with the wheel brakes if you can .I think sometimes a big mule might be a better choice .

[Stephen Alford]

   Hey Piston the ford is 65hp. Just to put the multiple stem grab (about 1/3cd) in perspective, they were used in the late 80's early 90's when wood harvest from old fields and hw thinnings was ctl by hand.  In order to maintain cash flow wood could be yarded and sold sameday.  In tight quarters the wood could be piled with them 4'high easy. Wood harvest then moved to tree length followed by the age of ctl processors.
    My money is on you building one. I think you could find a used bypass grapple and go from there. A couple things we did that made them work well was to make a hydraulic top link. (also used on other implements to provide down pressure and higher lift). We put a hydraulic cylinder on the backbone for articulation.  Last but not least split the hyraulics on the back to give three sets of quick coulpers.  I like used containers, one of those stached on the property would be handy. May have to drag it out of site when family comes but DanG handy.   

[timbuck2]

Piston, too bad your Grandfather got taken to the cleaners on the logging, was common back then, not so much now.  The big joke was to "cut around 40"  or to cut around (approx.) 40 acres. Then to leave the 40 acres intact and cut a round it, or 200 or more acres.   It's very cool to have a connection to your land tho.  My 88 acres is part of my mothers family farm that was granted to my 7thGreat Grandfather as a pension for being in the Revolutionary war.  My cousin owns the other 140.  I.ve been here 30 yrs plus and am totally amazed by the amount of wood I've taken off.  And the woodlots are still in good shape.  My grandfather lived on the old farm until about late 60's and spent alot of time pruning pine and spruce.  Once in  while I would run into a spruce way down in the back that had been pruned with an ax, some were over 2 ft dia.

[bill m]

To bad about what happened to your grandfather. It sounds like the property is in good hands now. I really do like my grapple but haven't used it much lately. It doesn't work very well with the size timber I have been cutting the last 5 or 6 years.

   For your project and the size trees you have I think a grapple would be perfect.

[Piston]

    My money is on you building one. I think you could find a used bypass grapple and go from there. A couple things we did that made them work well was to make a hydraulic top link. (also used on other implements to provide down pressure and higher lift). We put a hydraulic cylinder on the backbone for articulation.  Last but not least split the hyraulics on the back to give three sets of quick coulpers.  I like used containers, one of those stached on the property would be handy. May have to drag it out of site when family comes but DanG handy.   

Stephen, I think your right, that seems like the direction I'll go, I should have bought the one that Bill was selling when I had the chance, kicking myself for that now that I'm looking into building one! 
It's funny you mentioned the hydraulic top link.  I just got a shipping notification yesterday that mine has shipped!     So it's on the way!  I bought from a company called Fitrite hydraulics.  I have a hydraulic side link from them as well and it works great, can't wait to get the top link on. 
I recently added a 4 spool valve to the back of my tractor, and now have 4 rear remotes to work with.  I was thinking I could use one of those for the hydraulic 'side to side'. 
I never realized how useful the extra hydraulics were, and now I'm sort of 'fascinated' with them.  I recorded how I added them here, if anyone is interested. 
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/232020-how-i-added-rear-remote.html (can I post that link on the forum?)

[Piston]

My 88 acres is part of my mothers family farm that was granted to my 7thGreat Grandfather as a pension for being in the Revolutionary war. 

Tim,
That is truly incredible!  What an amazing thing that is these days.  To have ties back to the Revolutionary War like that is just awesome. 

I hope that someday my 7th grandson can say the same thing about me regarding the land......minus the whole Revolutionary War thing. 

[Piston]

To bad about what happened to your grandfather. It sounds like the property is in good hands now. I really do like my grapple but haven't used it much lately. It doesn't work very well with the size timber I have been cutting the last 5 or 6 years.

Bill,
Your pictures never cease to amaze me!   

Those are some nice logs you have there!  Do you sell them to a mill or do you mill them yourself?  Have you been working the same tract of land for 5 or 6 yrs?  If I could only take the trees at my current house and transport them to my land in NH, I'd be in dream land! 

[Spalted Dog]

Piston, thanks for the referral to TBN on your article.  That is exactly what I am working on designing for my little tractor.  I need more hyd for the top link as well as the forwarding trailer that I am building.  I don't know if I will go with that many remotes as I need one outlet that is direct to operates functions  on the trailer.

If there is a way to set that up in here I bet there are a lot of members that can use that info.  Great job.

[Piston]

Spalted Dog,
If all you need is for the hydraulics to go to the trailer (as in your gonna have a dedicated valve on the trailer) then you'll just need a power beyond circuit. 

However I'd definitely recommend going with a 2 spool valve (with power beyond for the trailer) that way you could run your top link and if you decide to get a side link you could run that too.  I went with 4 because I have the side link, the top link (it's on it's way) and hydraulic scarifiers on my box blade, plus I'm building a hydraulic gauge wheel, so that will take up all my remotes. 

Will you be using the trailer with the tractor 100% of the time? 

I have hopes of someday building a log trailer like you, and was thinking that I could save money in the short term by running the hydraulics off my current valve setup.  I could load and unload the trailer right from the tractor seat, however, I don't know if this would work out that great in reality.  I haven't thought about it toooo much.  I hope my writeup helps and feel free to ask questions. 

[Spalted Dog]

Thanks Piston,
I will definitely be setting up the tractor hyd down the road.  I want to wait until I get the trailer done to see if I will be modifying the crane to a knuckle boom style, or run it off its own power pack.  I am really leaning toward the power pack so I can run it with the truck too.

The crane I have is electric over hydraulic.  I will be using manual outriggers at this time until I see how I use it the most.  I will need a motor valve to run the four wheel drive down the road if I need it and will use the existing hyd valve for the steering.  I do have a 12v power pack that I need to get running that I could use to power the outriggers, and a powered boom extension if I decide to.

I hoped to be able to load unload from the seat as well, but that is one luxury that is not in the current budget.  I build a lot of projects and know how fast the details add up in price.  I will be using log tongs and chokers for my "Grapple" for now, so I will have to set them by hand.  Not the handiest, but its what I have at the moment.  If the foresrty work stays busy I will modify more for speed.  My cabinet shop is pretty much flat so extra cash is not in the cards at the moment.  I have pretty much switched to small scale logging and forest work.  There seems to be a demand here in the area so I make hay when the sun shines. 

I hope to start the crane trailer  within the next 2 weeks.

I have thougt quite a bit about the 3 pt grapple idea as well.  I have some good spots to use one, and hope to build one as well down the road.

[bill m]

Piston, All of my logs are sold to a mill.  This is my 3rd winter on this job and I won't finish before mud season. I also have a lot of other jobs, with big timber on them, lined up. Enough for at least the next 5 or  6 years. As for the trailers you and Spalted Dog are going to build I don't think the idea of running the loader from the tractor seat would be very practical. When loading logs a lot of times you will need to trim stubs that were on the bottom of the logs. Often times you will leave the tree full length because you can only reach one end. You will have to pull it to you, get off and cut the first log then pull the tree again, cut another log and so on. A awful lot of up and down from the drivers seat.

[shinnlinger]

I'm following this thread with interest as I currently have a8k electric winch mounted on my rear blade which is fine for the $ invested but am always open to other ideas..
On a related side note, I'm on my family farm I quasi inherited and my family owns land on the coast in Maine my 6th great grandad got for fighting in the revolution...cousins all around as the original parcel got pared down.  not everyday you can hang with your forth and fith cousins and know it...

[Piston]

....When loading logs a lot of times you will need to trim stubs that were on the bottom of the logs. Often times you will leave the tree full length because you can only reach one end. You will have to pull it to you, get off and cut the first log then pull the tree again, cut another log and so on. A awful lot of up and down from the drivers seat.

Never thought of that!   

Shinnlinger,
That's awesome you have a connection like that to your land! 

[Piston]

So I've been thinking about, IF I were to try and build a 'skidder grapple' what sort of things I would want incorporated into it. 

I came up with a quick sketch (roughly to scale, but certainly not exact) of what I would want. 

I basically took the attributes that I liked from all the grapples, and combined them into one, with an emphasis on the least amount of stress I could put on the top link.  One of the major helpers here is obviously being as close to the tractor as practically possible.  I know the stress is exponential the further away the weight is behind the tractor.

I made a basic frame that would attach to the 3 pt hitch.  From there, I made a pivot point so the rest of the grapple assembly could swing freely side to side.  I would add stops so it can't swing so far as to hit the tires.  I would also add an engageable 'lock' so when the grapple was empty it wouldn't swing around, or possibly some heavy duty springs, which I don't love the idea of as there is a lot of potential energy stored very close to the tractor seat!  I also thought of another hydraulic ram for the side to side, with a float position.  That's getting too far ahead though 

The problem that arises with a short 'boom' is that there won't be enough up/down movement to reach a log sitting on the ground, and get it high enough where it will clear the ground, so what I did is add another hinge point for up/down movement, and add a hydraulic cylinder there.  This way, with the combination of the hydraulic top link and the up down of the boom, I would have plenty of vertical travel.
-Another advantage to this, would be that a lot more weight is concentrated on the bottom of the frame, at the lift arms, versus having everything supported by the pulling force of the top link, up high.  Although, am I correct in that reasoning? 
I could forgo the hydraulic up/down ram if I had enough vertical travel with the top link alone, and replace it with a steel knee brace for support.

The distance from the forward most part of the frame, to where the grapple is hanging, is approximately 3 and half feet.


 

 

 

 

 

 

[shinnlinger]

You can also install a winch above your grapple, be it electric or hydraulic for the occasional times you need little more reach

[Piston]

Good Idea,
I just finished wiring in an auxiliary plug for the winch that I'm adding to my log arch, so I could just weld another 2" receiver hitch onto the top of it. 

The plug is the little gray one inside the fender.  The downside is that my winch is only 4,500lbs. 

 

 

[beenthere]

Add a hyd. top arm for the up/down and remove the one on the grapple arm (it will not stand up to being a log bumper to a log in the grapple).

Move the "side to side swing" pivot point forward and in a plane between the 3 ph attachments (i.e. incorporate the pivot within that frame). As you say, the more you can move forward the bigger load you can lift.

Good on your progress.

[Piston]

If I move the hydraulic up/down to the top of the unit, would that be putting more pulling strain on my top link?  It seems it would?  I see what you mean about the ram not standing up to a log as it is now though, good observation 

I could weld a heavy guard in front of it possibly?  My thinking is that if I'm pushing up from the bottom on the main boom, there will be more force directed to the bottom of the frame and the lower links, whereas if I'm pulling the boom up from the top, I'll have more tension stress on the mounting holes for the top link. 

[beenthere]

I'd replace the top link with an hydraulic cylinder.

What size tractor do you have? From the pic the 3 ph rocker arms look a bit light duty for the grapple build you are planning.

[Piston]

Move the "side to side swing" pivot point forward and in a plane between the 3 ph attachments (i.e. incorporate the pivot within that frame). As you say, the more you can move forward the bigger load you can lift.

Great idea beenthere 
Maybe I can recess the hinge point in more or possibly make more of a V shape with it. 

One of my thoughts, and don't be afraid to tell me it's a stupid idea  , was to make the main frame of the attachment able to rest down onto my main drawbar (not the bar that goes between the links, but the one you would normally pull a heavy load with, I don't know the real name for it)

I was thinking I could attach the unit to my 3pt hitch, lift it up off the ground, then install my drawbar, or rather pull it out a bit, so that I can then lower the 3pt hitch slightly until it sort of 'rests' onto my drawbar, transferring some of the weight to the drawbar, then use the hyd up/down to raise the log instead of the 3pt hitch. 
Does this sound like a recipe for disaster, or a good idea?      

[Piston]

I'd replace the top link with an hydraulic cylinder.

What size tractor do you have? From the pic the 3 ph rocker arms look a bit light duty for the grapple build you are planning.

That's what I'm worried about.  It is a lighter duty tractor and possibly I'm just asking for trouble if I do go through with this, but that's what you guys are here for 

It's a 45hp tractor, but being a Kubota, is NOT the more heavy duty of the tractors out there....

I do have a hydraulic top link in transit 

[Reddog]

I think you have over designed your current drawings.

I would lean towards building a lighter version of the Addington 3point with your winch mounted on top.

What are the max lift weights listed for your 3point?

[Piston]

Lift capacity at lift point … 2870 LB

Lift capacity at 24" lift point … 2310 LB

[Piston]

I think I need a bigger tractor.... 

[beenthere]

.......One of my thoughts, and don't be afraid to tell me it's a stupid idea  , was to make the main frame of the attachment able to rest down onto my main drawbar (not the bar that goes between the links, but the one you would normally pull a heavy load with, I don't know the real name for it)

.......

That name is correct.

Don't think that idea will gain you much given the extra work to install the drawbar or move it out of the way when not needed.
Myself, I'd not go the 3pt grapple route with that size tractor. The winch like the Farmi, Norse, Valme, etc would be the best way to go. IMO

[Reddog]

Lift capacity at lift point … 2870 LB

Lift capacity at 24" lift point … 2310 LB

My M6800 has a 4550# lift capacity at the point.
So figuring you are only lifting half the log weight, 2000#'s is a pretty good size log.
But a 351 winch will be much tighter to the arm point.

[mroldstyle]

Piston
If your on TBN check out the thread I started on "a different kind of grapple" you'll see the 3pt grapple I built.
You definately want a hydraulic side swing.

[Side loader]

Here is a homemade grapple I have used in the past. It's really heavy duty. It's all a 50 hrs 4wd Kubota wants but it might give ya some ideas. 

 
This one is a much lighter duty homemade grapple for 1 tree per grab. The previous thread grapple will bunch.
 

 

[lumberjack48]

         This looks look like a quick little grapple



         Heres a look at the cable winch, pretty fast, more ways to get hurt

[lumberjack48]

                         Heres a couple more grapples






                       One from Baileys

[UN Hooker]

   I built my grapple a little different and it sure is handy. And not just for moving wood!

          UN
 

 

[Piston]

   I built my grapple a little different and it sure is handy. And not just for moving wood!

That's pretty slick 

The main reason I want to use the traditional bypass grapple is so I can also use it on the 410 backhoe for doing exactly what you just posted!

I got a quote from Valby for $1,100 for the grapple alone, that is with a 2,500lb capacity.  The only problem is I told them what I was planning on using it for, and they said that the grapple is designed for lifting, and not pulling, so it may not hold up.  It doesn't look much different than the grapples the Wallenstein and Iron and Oak one uses?  Do you really think it wouldn't hold up?  I'm fairly surprised because even when just doing 'lifting' with a grapple, your often times pulling the log at the same time. 
The model I'm speaking of is a GR36 grapple.   

[Piston]

Piston
If your on TBN check out the thread I started on "a different kind of grapple" you'll see the 3pt grapple I built.
You definately want a hydraulic side swing.

Mroldstyle,
That's where I saw that!    I knew I've seen the pics not that long ago but couldn't find it, thanks for posting. 
Could you answer a few specific questions for me.

It says in your thread that you used 3/8" for most of it, and 1/4" for the boom.  Did you just buy sheets of plate steel?  If so, roughly how much was a sheet?  I have no idea what steel prices are. 

What model NH is your tractor?  and how well does the grapple work now that you have used it a bit? 

Did you ever try to figure out the weight? 

How far back does it stick out? 

Do you think there would be any benefit to having an up/down hyd cylinder like I have in my drawing?

Sorry for all the questions, but that is an excellent design and the answers would really help me. 

For anyone who hasn't seen Mroldstyle's build, here are a few pics....
Not bad for a paramedic 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty sweet truck too 

[Piston]

Sideloader,
I recognize that bottom pic grapple from one I've seen on here before!  I like the simplicity of it

Lumberjack,
Unfortunately I can't see the pics/videos.  If it's video it's on my end, video's are blocked for me.  Can others see it?


MrOldstyle,
In my rush to ask you questions, I forgot to welcome you    So, WELCOME!   
I started posting this over on TBN but didn't really get much for responses.  Good ole' forestry forum always comes through!

[thecfarm]

Piston I could view the videos.
I always like to see that loader UN Hooker.
mroldstyle, welcome to the forum. Nice grapple you have there and NH tractor too. Must be doing your firewood with it?

[Spalted Dog]

UH OH I smell a project in my future as well.  Great job on the builds and ideas!

[Side loader]

Piston,
If you were closer to Dixieland I'd lay that grapple on ya. I couldn't stand it and broke down an picked up a JD 548D around Christmas.  The green grapple is a very simple design and I have pulled a  2.5 log syp with 18 - 20" but, top and all with no problem. The pic of the black grapple was made out of a bell felling head and is Very heavy duty and heavy. Anyway sounds like your thinking this project out. There's a lot of good advice on this forum. Hope it works out.

[UN Hooker]

 Piston
     That is the small Valby grapple on that. That stick was carried from the pile to where we split. I've dragged many sticks twice that size around the yard without problems, except you must use the brakes to steer. The hardest on it is loading large rocks and filling roll off containers with scrap, I've tweaked it a few times but all in all its pretty tough for its small size.

                UN

[mroldstyle]

Piston
Thanks for the welcome and posting the pics.
To answer your questions:
1: most of the 3/8 in. steel came from the cut-off pile at the supplier, I think that was 50 cents a pound. The 1/4in. came out of a 2 foot X 5 foot plate. Not sure what the price was, but total for the steel was about $400. I did have some left overs though. Most expensive part was the hydraulics and adding a third hydraulic circuit.
2: I have a tc 29d, 29 hp New Holland. The grapples working very well. Had one weld break and one hydraulic fitting go bad. Both easy fixes.
3: My guess on weight would be around 400 to 450#
4: Top of the boom is 60 in long. So its out about 4 feet, taking into consideration the angle.
5: I dont know of any benefit to the hydraulic cylinder, unless your mounting to a tractor without a 3pt. I'm sure it wouldnt last long without some shieldin around it. I deffinately recomend putting a side swing cylinder on it. Backing up to a log in the woods isn't as easy as it seems, especially with a fel on.
  Good Luck.

Thecfarm
Also thanks for the welcome.
I'm actually using it for getting out red pine pulpwood. I'm thinning out a couple plantations, cutting the trees just a little over 25 feet, then skidding 3-4 poles out to the landing, where I buck them up into 100 in. pulp sticks. Later I will be using it for firewood.

[mroldstyle]

Piston,
Did you decide what your going to do?

[GRANITEstateMP]

Not sure if this helps or not but we needed to add some extra hydro. lines to the JD5500 when we run the Igland grapple and used this little unit (in the pic).  I'll try to remember to write the name down one of these days!  It's not ideal but it works, if you need to close the grapple, you flip a switch and move the joystick like your gonna scoop some dirt, if you want to change the angle of the gapple, just move the switch back.  Like I said not perfect but it works and it's an extra set of remotes.

 

 

[Piston]

I've been on vacation so I haven't checked these threads for a week or so. 

Piston,
Did you decide what your going to do?

The only decision I'm set on, is that I'd really like to have a grapple    I'm still really concerned with the stress on the top link.  I did some more research and the more I read the more I am shying away from using a grapple on my tractor.  I read about an identical tractor to mine (Kubota L4610) snapping the rear housing apart while using something similar to what I'm thinking about building/buying.  I also emailed a John Deere dealership asking about they're recommendations (I know different tractor but the Kubota place never returned my email) and they said they couldn't comment on the grapple design, but he related it to similar stresses that a 3pt hitch backhoe would put on the toplink, and he said they have had problems in the past with the 3x20 and 4x20 series which are similar in size to my tractor, and he said they don't cover that type of damage under warrantee because of the risk.  My tractor doesn't have a warrentee regardless, but the fact that they don't cover something like that leads me to believe that the tractors aren't really built for that sort of pulling stress.  He did say however that the next size up was plenty beefy enough to never worry about something like that, but that may have just been a sales pitch 
That being said, I'm gonna try and make time to check out Bill M's grapple and see how it looks/works, and that may help me make my decision.  Regardless, I'll be on the lookout for some scrap steel!

MrOldstyle:
Thanks for the details regarding your build.     I really appreciate it. 

I don't know if I'm crazy or not but I'm actually thinking of upgrading my tractor anyways.  Not because of this grapple build (although the idea doesn't hurt the argument ) but because of not enough FEL lift capacity, as well as I seem to be working this tractor to the limits a lot.  I'm worried I'm gonna end up doing some serious damage to something with all the heavy work I have coming up, but then again I have a backhoe for the heavy stuff in the meantime. 

GranitestateMP,
That's a pretty slick setup with the diverter valve.  It's a really good cost effective solution to adding another set of remotes, especially helpful with a grapple. 
Is "MP" marine patrol?  If so maybe I'll see you on the lake 

[shinnlinger]

Just when you had me talked into building a grapple you go and get cold feet.  Perhaps a sub frame could take the stress better but I don't know of it would be as hard as a backhoe unless you were hauling old growth redwoods.  Any log you hook onto in NH will probably move where many granite boulders up here will not.

[Gunny01]

I Just bough a 6.5H from BGU ProForest. They have a winch directly attched to the Winch shield.

I have never seen anything like this but I can operate Winch and Grapple as one Unit behind my tractor.

I Just need to find money for the grapple .

The winch has a indepedant Hydraulic by the PTO .SO I have enough power for the grapple.

My Tractor is John Deere 2940.

The guys are new to the USA but seem to know their stuff pretty well.The deal was pretty good for me