Help/advice in choosing a 3pt grapple for small time tractor logging?

[Piston]

There isn't a boatload of information on 3pt hitch logging grapples (or would "bucket load" be more appropriate?)  so I thought I would start a thread to discuss them before I make a purchase....or rather, to see if I SHOULD make a purchase 

My specific uses for the logging grapple, will be skidding out small to medium sized pines (10"-18" DBH) from my 30 acres in Central NH.  At first I will be clearing the land for a driveway (700'-800') and a building lot, roughly 5 acres.  Then it will be general thinning from there on out, with some occasional clear cuts of less than one acre to make small fields. 
I will also skid out smallish (less than 15"DBH) hardwoods for firewood.  The Pine that is large enough will be used for my mill.  I'll probably burn the smaller pines.
Obviously, with the small amount of land I'm clearing (compared to some of you guys!) I don't NEED a log grapple to do the work, it's more of something I want, but I'd like to get something that fits my needs the best if I'm gonna be spending the money. 
I've looked into a skidding winch as well but that is sort of another subject, and I haven't ruled it out yet. 
One of the reasons for the skidding grapple instead of winch, is that I won't have any problems getting right up to the felled trees, meaning I don't need to winch them out of the woods, and I like the idea of not getting off the tractor, and just backing up to the log, closing the grapple, and driving away. 

I've looked at the following so far:  (not in person, just online:D)

Wallenstein LX5100
LX5100 Log Grapple - Wallenstein

Wallenstein LX 480
LX480 Log Grapple - Wallenstein

Valby SGR 48
SGR48

Addington grapple (smaller of the two)
Grapples, Addington Equipment

I've seen some pics of the Iron and Oak one
and the 'log skidder' that Northern Hydraulics sells. 

Some of my considerations are:
I will be putting it on my 45hp Kubota, my rears are filled with 1,100lbs of RimGuard, and I will have my FEL grapple on. 

I am so far leaning towards either the Wallenstein or the Addington.  I haven't received any info on pricing of the Addington but I like that it is built in NH and I wouldn't have to pay shipping. 

Wallenstein:
The low weight of the unit worries me, I know the less weight the grapple weighs, the heavier log I can pick up.  The worry is, when I don't have a lot of weight in the grapple, will it be too light when I'm doing FEL work with my FEL grapple?  I will still be lifting a lot of stumps, small logs, and piling trees/brush, and don't want the rear end to be too light.   
I like that the the Wallenstein grapples have the full swiveling grapple.  I don't like how 'curved' the LX5100 is, it looks like it would be tough for me to find a good place to mount my winch.

The Lx4800 is discontinued, and probably tough to find, but looks like something I'd really like, except for the super low weight.  The price would be better since the few I've found are discounted since they're the 'old style' now.  I also like that there are a lot less 'curves' than the new LX5100, the more straight sections there are, the easier it is for me to weld back together if something breaks. 

Valby SGR48
I like how the pivot point is close to the tractor.  I don't like how the grapple itself doesn't swivel side to side, and especially back and forth.  I think the more 'linkage' there is the better, and the more rigid things are the more chance of shock loading my top link, in turn putting a lot more shock load on the top link casting, where it attaches to the tractor. 
The valby doesn't have a real 'grapple' on it, it's more some shaped steel with a hydraulic ram, rather than something I can detach and use on the backhoe. 

Addington
I think the Addington is a great looking grapple from what I see, but it might be almost TOO heavy duty for me.  Plus I don't think I can weld the T-1 steel if something breaks?  But then again, it looks heavy duty enough to where it wouldn't break.  This might be a little TOO much for my little tractor.  I also don't know if I can detach that grapple very easy. 

I think the perfect grapple for me would be a cross between the Wallenstein LX4800 and the Valby SGR 48, with a little extra weight on it.  I like the grapple on the Wallenstien with the full swivel design, and I like the hinge point near the tractor on the Valby. 



-I'd like to be able to weld a 2" receiver hitch to the grapple frame, so I can use my small winch with it. 

-I'd like it to weigh close to 500lbs, although on the other hand, the less stress on the top link the better, but I still want good traction, this is tough trade off. 

-I'd like the actual grapple (the lifting point) to be as near the tractor as possible, since the further it is away, the more stress on the top link.

-I'd like the grapple to be the traditional bypass grapple like the Wallenstein, this way if I ever decide to in the future, I could easily add quick disconnects to the grapple itself, detach it from the log skidding frame, and attach it to the backhoe for log handling, I could see this coming in very useful around the sawmill and log splitter.

Cost is sort of an issue, I'd say more 'value' is the biggest issue over cost.  I don't mind spending more if I'm getting a lot more for my dollar.  I'll call some places today and check on some pricing and availability. 


Can anyone who has any experience with (or has done a lot of research) give there opinions on what may work well for my situation? 

What are your thoughts and opinions on the different styles? 

If I am aware of the stresses put on the top link, and don't beat the heck out of my tractor and try doing wheelies with a large log on the back, do you think there is a high risk of doing some serious danger to the tractor top link connecting area?  This is really my biggest concern.

 

[thecfarm]

I know what you mean about backing right up to the log and driving off,but will you always be able to this this 3-4 years using it a way that you did not realize? I probably could use one as I am in the process of clearing a grown up pasture. But at times I want to bring more than one out and than I would have to get to another tree and try to pick it up too. This is tree length with limbs and all. Kinda hard to get beside another tree with out backing up to it or running over the tree to get close enough to it with the limbs still on,it might be kinda hard. You do mention using the grapple to pick up a log in the woods. I would not really be able to do this in my woods. Too many smaller trees that I would not want to run over, some I could not run over anyways or should say want to because of damage to the tractor. But if you can afford a grapple and a 3pt winch,buy both. I hauled out ALOT of big pine with my winch and never did a thing to the top link. But have heard of some that had trouble. You could always keep a good size log in your grapple too just for more weight. I really like that grapple.

[beenthere]

Piston
It's a question I'd put to the Kub dealer, and learn if warranty work would be done if any damage was done. Some are built for it, but not all.  If a back hoe is available for your tractor, then likely hauling logs on the 3 ph will not be more stressful to the frame and castings where the top link attaches. Have seen where they can break between the feet but that was a different brand (and not green ).

[ahlkey]

The advantage of the 3pt winch over a grapple is that you can get to all your trees in difficult/narrow areas where you just can't get close with your tractor. Without having your tractor set up for logging off-trail you will have your share of breakdowns.  I use my farmi-winch together with snatchblocks to lift and pull from all directional areas and with them you can double your pull capacity.  It is easy to drag 3-5 decent size trees to the landing as well which might not be the case with the grapple.   In the early years before the winch I built a 3pt log platform with forks.  I used a hydraulic top link on it and I could carry a lot of logs cut 8ft or longer to the landing.  It worked great and only cost me very little to make.  However, with the farmi-winch I don't know how I could work without it today.  You could probably find a used model for your tractor for less than $1500 and there is just not a lot of things that can go wrong with them.  I also use a 75 ft extension so I can reach out over 240 ft when needed.  Hope this helps a little....

[dlabrie]

Where in NH is your property? I am located just north of Plymouth.

I have been dragging firewood logs out of the woods with my B2910 for years just using a chain hooked to my 3ph. Sometimes it isn't too pretty  Once I get a mill, I'll have to take more care with the logs. I am thinking along the lines of a log arch at the far end and the front chained to my 3ph.

[Jim_Rogers]

When we were logging back in the 80's we didn't have anything but a tractor with a front bucket. Just a "snow" bucket not a dirt digging front bucket.
If you've seen my forklift attachment in any of my pictures you've seen my front bucket.
And as this machine was bought, just to plow and lift snow back in 1968, we just had a set of heavy arms on the back which we set a large concrete block onto, that attached to our top link, as we did have removable three point hitch arms. We had a mower and a York rake to do yard work with in the summer time.
But back to logging.
When my logger wanted to build his house, a log cabin out of stacked oak beams, he went to a woodlot and cut down 300 trees over two weeks. And cut these trees into 360 logs, leaving the tops basically untouched.
He worked in a factory full time then and only did this work on nights and weekends.
I was in the firewood business then and I work on these tops and cut them up for firewood.
When we started pulling out his logs from his lot, he got a real long cable and one pulley to use to attach to the log and snake them out of the lot to the skid trail.
This was a lot of work pulling the cable by hand out to the log and then rolling the log onto the choker and then pulling it out around other trees and stumps.
We did this the first day, as this was what he wanted to do.
He didn't understand that with a little work, you could drive right up to every log and pick it up.
While he was at work one day, I did this and I would move his logs out of the way, and get to the tops. I created a small off skid trail path to every log/tree/top.
Back then we were selling 4' lengths and we'd cut the tops into four footers and load them into the bucket and drive to the truck at the street. Sometimes we'd stack the four foot tops pieces into the bucket so we could just drive to the truck, with no tailgate on and set the load into the back of the truck. Thus, no hand stacking to load the truck.
With large pieces we may have to hand stack.

So the sawyer showed up one day to pick up the first load of oak logs from his site. He was mad as Hell-o when he saw how dirty these logs were from them being dragged with the cable.
He ran an old Lane #1 circular sawmill with no de-barker.

He suggested we build a sled to haul the oak logs on to prevent them from getting dirty.
He showed us some pictures he had and we made one according to his ideas/pictures/drawings and sketches. He called it a scoot.

It had hook spots on each end. You dragged it into the woods by the back end. Then you unhooked your tractor from it and then lifted the logs from where the fell and carried them a few feet over to the scoot.
After you had several on the scoot you'd attach the pull chain to the front end. And you'd pull the scoot to the landing.
We did this for the entire lot, and the sawyer was very happy.

We used this scoot for many years.

I'm sorry I don't have a drawing of one that we used. Or pictures of one that we used, but I did build something similar for a fellow who wanted to move some large granite stones at a retreat.
And I built two of these for him. A large one and a small one. Both were basically the same design as a logging scoot except that they had more cross timbers. And these cross timbers were very large.

They worked for the project he wanted them for and I don't know if they every were used again or not.

I did photograph the entire project of building them. And I was present when they used them to move the large stones at the retreat.

My advice to you, is to save your money, and just build a scoot for hauling your logs.
I can make up a plan for you, and you can build your own for short money and you can do the same thing, as we did. Which was what they did years and years ago before skidders and grapples.

I don't have time right now to upload some pictures but I will later on tonight after dark.

Jim Rogers 

[dlabrie]

Jim,
I'd love to see plans for a scoot!

David

[bill m]

I have the Iron and Oak grapple and it works great.

 
I added a winch to it, they did not offer one as an option when I bought it. It opens to about 52 inches and closes to about 3. I don't think you will have a problem with the top link. Because the lifting point is back behind the lower lift arms your tractor will stop lifting before it can break the top link. Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

[Jim_Rogers]

Jim,
I'd love to see plans for a scoot!

David

David:
I don't want to hijack this thread about grapples, so I'll start another one here in forestry and logging after I upload some pictures to an album in my gallery.
I'll name the album Scoot pictures.
Also, we pronounce it like it rimes with shoot, but I'm not completely sure if I'm even spelling it right.

Jim Rogers

PS. I just posted the thread about making the rock sleds/scoots.

[Piston]

I know what you mean about backing right up to the log and driving off,but will you always be able to this this 3-4 years using it a way that you did not realize? .....

This is a good point that I didn't really think of, whether or not I would use it long term.  I like the idea of the winch being more 'universal', it can pretty much do everything a grapple can, but a grapple can't do everything the winch can. 

Piston
It's a question I'd put to the Kub dealer, and learn if warranty work would be done if any damage was done....If a back hoe is available for your tractor, then likely hauling logs on the 3 ph will not be more stressful to the frame and castings where the top link attaches....

No warranty on my tractor as it's pushing 10yrs old now but good idea to check with the dealer and see what they would recommend.  There is a backhoe available and quite honestly, I think I'm more paranoid about doing damage than I need to be.  I don't imagine that the trees I will be skidding out will be any more heavy than a heavy duty brush hog that my tractor is rated for, and those also put a lot of stress on the top link when bouncing around as the weight is pretty far back.


 

You could probably find a used model for your tractor for less than $1500 and there is just not a lot of things that can go wrong with them.

If I could find one that would match what I'm looking for in that price range I'd be all over it.  I haven't been able to find any that cheap but if anyone knows of anything available I'm all ears..

so I'll start another one here in forestry and logging after I upload some pictures to an album in my gallery.
I'll name the album Scoot pictures.

PS. I just posted the thread about making the rock sleds/scoots.

Jim, I checked out your thread with the Scoot pictures, looks like a neat idea and thanks for taking the time to post the detailed pics, I like the metal runner on the underside, I bet that works excellent on frozen ground as well. 

I have the Iron and Oak grapple and it works great....


I added a winch to it, they did not offer one as an option when I bought it. It opens to about 52 inches and closes to about 3. I don't think you will have a problem with the top link. Because the lifting point is back behind the lower lift arms your tractor will stop lifting before it can break the top link. Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

Bill,
That was the exact pic I was referring to of the Iron and Oak model!    I knew I saw it somewhere on here.  Your setup is actually my 'dream' setup for what I do.  Between the tractor, grapple, logging trailer/grapple, and tire chains, I can't think of a better setup for the woods.  (Although, do you have a FEL grapple as well? )

Can you tell me more about how you like yours?  Or what you do or don't like about it?  I'll ask some specifics as well:
What dealer did you buy it from? 
What is the rough cost new nowadays?
Do you think there is any benefit to having it swivel side to side right up close to the tractor like the Valby model? 
How much does it weigh? 

I just found this model on they're website, is this pretty much the same as yours?
Long Link


The reason I'm leaning towards a grapple for the rear end, isn't so much a decision based on what I will use more in the long term, it's more of what would be most useful for me while I'm clearing the land.  In my specific situation, I think I could benefit a lot from having a rear grapple.  I know it sounds 'lazy' but I like the idea of backing up to the log/tree, grabbing a hold of it, and driving away. 

I'll post some pics of the trees I will be clearing in case it helps. 

I'm also leaning towards a grapple because of the price, although some of the ones I posted are just as much as a new winch, there are others that are much cheaper. 

[Piston]

Here are some pictures. 
All the small stuff will be mulched and the smaller trees will be piled for burning/firewood with the FEL grapple.  The larger trees (and obviously that is a relative term , there aren't many 'large' trees whatsoever) will be skidded full length to where I will be piling them for either firewood or milling. 

 

 
 


  



  



  



  



  



  



 

 

 

[Piston]

Where in NH is your property? I am located just north of Plymouth.

Alton Bay

Also, I do use a log arch as well, which works excellent for the larger logs that I want to keep off the ground.  I built mine and documented it here:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45388.0/all.html

[Piston]

Your are right they are fast. For small land clearing and short skids they are faster then any 3pt. winch. If you want to come down and see mine operate let me know.

Bill, I'd like to take you up on that offer.  I'll be busy with work and vacation over the next month or so but maybe sometime in March I'll send you a message and see if the offer is still on the table    I'd love to see that setup anyways!

[g_man]

Your site looks fairly flat and open which is good for the grapple but personally I would be more comfortable having a winch. Cutting that many trees you certainly  will get some hung up or fall the wrong way. The winch will allow you to deal with these easier and much safer. It will also allow you to pull some leaners the way you want. It won't be long before you get alot of junk laying on the ground that you might get tired of driving over or moving with the grapple rig.

[Stephen Alford]

   Hey Piston, will you be working for yourself or for someone else ?  If it is on your property you will have a chance to take your time and develope the techniques that best suits your situation.  Decisions as to what to do;when,where and how are yours to make on the spot .  If there is an employer as such their priorities, cash flow and a host of other variables will make things more difficult.  Spending some time with Bill would be a tremendous opportunity for sure.
    I have had the grapple and tractor in the pics in my gallery for some 20 years. It was built to carry 8' wood from thinnings.  The wood was hand cut and trail piled.  Couple of surprises were how well it handled the slash to place on skid trails and backing up slopes to remove wood. It was about 3000 to build. The nice thing about anything that fits on a 3pt hitch it does not lose its value over time if it is kept in good repair.

 
     As a side note did, did a job last summer with a buddy who had one of these small backhoes.  Needed a live thumb but one of those and that tractor of yours would be a sweet combination for urban work.   

 

[Piston]

Your site looks fairly flat and open which is good for the grapple but personally I would be more comfortable having a winch. Cutting that many trees you certainly  will get some hung up or fall the wrong way. The winch will allow you to deal with these easier and much safer. It will also allow you to pull some leaners the way you want. It won't be long before you get alot of junk laying on the ground that you might get tired of driving over or moving with the grapple rig.

You state some good points in favor of a winch, and honestly if money were no object that is probably what I would buy.  I'm not worried about getting the trees hung up though, with the backhoe pushing and the size of those trees, it won't be a problem.  I am aware of the extra safety precautions when doing this. 

The slash on the ground could become a problem.  I haven't decided yet the best way to handle that, maybe you guys can help? 
My initial plan is to knock down the tree, skid the entire tree to one central location where the brush will go, stop, get off the tractor, limb it, cut the stump off, cut the top off, get back on the tractor, and skid the remaining log over to the log pile to be loaded on the trailer, or cut up into firewood down the road.  Then go back and get another one.  This would minimize the 'mess' on the forest floor. 
The other option, is to limb them where they fall, and have a mulcher mulch up all the slash when he comes.  Not sure which would be better?  I don't like messes! 


Stephen,
That is a nice setup you have in that pic.  How big is that tractor?  I wouldn't be comfortable loading up my top link like that on my little Bota.  Yours is obviously much more stout than mine!  I like it!  (as a side note, I'm already wishing I went up another frame size with the tractor )
I will be working for myself, for my future house.  This is my property and I do have the time to create a good plan.  I like your outlook and advice to do what suits me best 

I do really like Bills setup, although, I think his is getting old from too much use, so he should probably sell it and buy a new one.  I could help him out by buying it from him   

I do have a lot to learn, that is for sure!  Keep the suggestions coming.   

[Piston]

I was able to get some prices.  Here is what I was quoted or found advertised online:

Wallenstein LX5100 - $2,400

Wallenstein LX 480 - $1,900 on sale as discontinued model, but it's pick up only and its in Kentucky, too far for me

Valby SGR 48 $1,400 - Most appealing price, but I just don't like the design.  I like the hinge near the tractor, but other than that, it doesn't seem like I'm getting a good 'value' with this grapple.  It doesn't look as rugged as the others, and I really don't like the rigid design of the grapple, also, can't detach the grapple and use with the backhoe if I wanted to in the future. 

Iron and Oak - $3,600 according to their website - Too expensive for me, but I really like the design.  It seems simple, rugged, easy to fix or modify, easy to mount my winch on, good weight, and I like the grapple.  So far this is my new favorite.  I would love to come across a used one of these!
Although the price is a lot of money for me, I do think this is a better "value" than some of the others.
Iron & Oak Commercial Log Splitters - PRODUCTS

Addington ?
This is one heavy duty grapple!  I spoke with the company for a quote, and actually I couldn't get a price out of him.  The reason is that the ones on the website (which he told me was outdated) are built for commercial use, and are way more than I would need.  He said those ones are close to $8,000, but that he was working on a smaller, lighter model for tractors my size, even though he advertises one for my size on the site.  I was actually confused after talking with him about the price, seems like the one he is working on that would be good for me, would be around $4,000-$4,500.  I'd LOVE to come across a used one of these for a good price, seems like you couldn't kill the thing if you tried.  However, its more than I need, and way more than I'm willing to spend.  This thing seems like you could sharpen the grapple edges and use it as a tree shear!


I have found that some of these grapples (Addington in particular) are obviously MORE expensive than a skidding winch.  I won't spend that kind of money on one. 
I'm now considering buying a grapple, as in the grapple head only, and building my own.  Not so much for cost savings (well that too) but also because I can't seem to settle on one, I don't "love" any.  I'm thinking if I take each attribute that I like from each model, and put them all together, I could come up with my own ideal grapple for my uses.  I also enjoy building things like this, but I'm not sure I have the time....or skill! Anyways, I'm considering it. :laughing:


Winches: I was quoted $5,000 for the Farmi 501, which is what I would get if I were to get one. 

I also looked into the Wallenstein FX90, $3,900.  Much better price point and I would probably buy this over the Iron and Oak skidder for $3,600.  Only problem is, I really can't spend that much money to begin with.  I do think the FX90 seems like a good value though.  I will also keep my eyes open for one of these winches, on the used market.

[Jim_Rogers]

The slash on the ground could become a problem.  I haven't decided yet the best way to handle that, maybe you guys can help? 
My initial plan is to knock down the tree, skid the entire tree to one central location where the brush will go, stop, get off the tractor, limb it, cut the stump off, cut the top off, get back on the tractor, and skid the remaining log over to the log pile to be loaded on the trailer, or cut up into firewood down the road.  Then go back and get another one.  This would minimize the 'mess' on the forest floor. 
The other option, is to limb them where they fall, and have a mulcher mulch up all the slash when he comes.  Not sure which would be better?  I don't like messes! 

Saying that you'll drag a tree whole through the woods to a spot is one thing. Actually doing it is another.
 
You'll soon learn exactly how hard it is to do that.

When you drop a large tree the crown is wide, and dragging a tree with the crown attached is not easy. All the limbs will rub against other trees along the trail and damage them.

You intend to mill these logs? Dragging them in the dirt will be the worst thing you can do.

You need to carry them and keep the clean. You'll spend so much time changing dull blades from sawing through dirt on your logs. And/or so much time cleaning your logs that you'll soon learn to keep them clean in the first place.

Cut the limbs off where they lay, stack by hand if you need to. To get them out of your way.
Plan your harvest so that you don't have to, of course unless you're clearing your lot for building.
Cut your logs to length were they land and pick them up and carry them out to a sled and drag the sled to the landing, not the logs.

You'll save so much money and time. Make is easy for yourself.
You can burn brush in NH if the day is right, unless you need the chips.

When we harvested logs for sale or for my loggers house, we started in the back of the lot and laid the trees down toward the back of the lot. Butts toward the trail. Work your way out so that you're not going to run over brush or need to move it while you're harvesting your logs. Brush can sit and you can get back to it later, when you have time.

I can't tell you how much money I spend repairing my tractor from running over brush thinking that it was "OK" to do that. Branches will curve up and get into all parts of your machine. You should not drive over brush or stumps. You're just asking for trouble.

Keep reading and keep asking questions.

Jim Rogers

[beenthere]

One trick to drag a tree out and not have the limbs reaching out to brush hard against other trees along the skid trail is to partially cut through those limbs along the main trunk (stem) with the chainsaw.
 About an 80% cut will let the limb fold back and follow as long as the remaining wood holds for the drag.

Works good too when winching out logs and tops to save hooking up to each and every piece of limbwood.

[thecfarm]

I just cut the brush up into short pieces when they are still on the trees. I cut most of any branches I leave in the woods 2-3 feet long. The shorter the better. Makes for a nice clean looking job too.Most crotched limbs be it 2,3,4 ways,gets cut too. Yes,this does take alot of time,but I don't have branches sticking up in the air.I take my branches down to about 1-2 inches.Than I haul them out of the woods. But sometimes I saw the limbs off and go back in with a trailer to get the limb wood. That is really the best way I found out as far as digging the ground up and barking trees up. But it's a REAL slow way to get wood.Hauling out limbs and all with any size to the trees will really dig the ground up. When I do haul limbs and all sometimes I have to stop and rehook because one limb is acting like a plow.