How do you charge for small scale logging/forest maintenence

[Spalted Dog]

I have started a small scale logging business and am interested in how you charge for your services.  I do only very small pieces of land and am maily cutting walnut.  I also cut roads, food plots, TSI, firewood.  I am working with a small tractor w/winch and grapple, arch, and am currently building a forwarding trailer.  The last couple of jobs I have done I feel that things are coming up a bit short in the end.   What is your typical production with your smaller equipment?  It is very possible that  I am just plain slow.
Thanks 

[thecfarm]

I have seen fast messy jobs, and slow neat jobs. If not getting wood out,I would change by the hour. If getting wood out half and half would seem about right.

[madmari]

For TSI, roads, trails, cleanup, etc- by the hour. With a tractor/winch, should be ok at about $65-75/hr. Don't sell yourself short. You'll starve and get frustrated under-charging. It's hard starting out because you need the work and references, but believe me, nobody remembers the charity work!
  For timber, I pay a percentage for stumpage based on timber quality, skid distance, terrain, landing availability. If it's typical softwood logs, I pay 40% and $2/ton for the pulp. Really top quality hardwood, you might pay more to the landowner.
 

[CuddleBugFirewood]

right or wrong I started charging .20 per board foot.  I also try to maintain the margin if I bid on any tracts.  My ideal tract would be 10 to 20 acres and about 20,000 to 50,000 board feet, as I do this part time and don't have the time necessary for much more than that.

I directional fell, use a 548g skidder equipped with a winch and a grapple to extract logs and pulpwood, and a skid steer to maintain and organize the landing.  Trucking is usually included in the mill quote for all the grade logs, but the tie logs/pallet logs I end up taking care of the trucking.  I generally don't pay on the pulpwood as it is done as more of a service to get the hardwood tops on the ground and reduce the appearance of the ground being logged.  I think I probably losing money trying to recover some of the pulpwood  I also smooth out and clear off the permanet trails (atvs and horses), close the secondary skid trails, and put water bars on the slopes with the skid steer or skidder. 

This has figured out about 40% me 60% landowner on a average/good quality timber, and more like 60 to 70% me on a poor quality timber site.  I explain to the landowner the charges as we are looking at his timber so he knows what to expect.  I found this works out better than trying to keep track of percentages.  Each mill slip gets copied and submitted to the landowner with a check for his portion. 

Depending on the TSI work to be done, it goes anywhere from 100 an acre to 500 an acre depending on the level of work and chemical required.  I will be starting to do some of that this year.  My dad has been doing all his own on the farm, and has done over 80 acres the past two years. 

I am interested to see what other people charge. 

[g_man]

madmari, if spruce/fir is going for $300 mbf at the mill, for example, are you saying that you are typically paying $120 for stumpage (40%)? Or are you selling at the landing and paying 40% of that, and what would that amount typically be ? Just curious and trying to learn - Seems like if a mbf is 4 or 5 tons paying $120 for $300 worth of logs and $10 for $200 worth of pulp( if pulp is $40 a ton) is a big difference. What am I not seeing? Thanks

[FFLM]

What I do when working on a % job is trucking comes off the top and then split what is left with the land owner.  So when I get mill check I take the trucking out and then do the %age with the land owner.  Most jobs around here the mill dose not pay trucking.  My wood gose to a concentration yard and he will pay trucking on veneer.  I do small scale work like you, only in winter and sometimes I feel like I am working for peanuts!  Good luck, no one dose this stuff cause they think they will make a million, but just love puttin the wood out 

[Spalted Dog]

I am going to try  % next for walnut anyway.  Around here larger logging companies charge 35-40% for walnut, otherwise they get 125-150 per thousand I think.  I definitely do not expect to get rich, but we need to put food on the table.   I have a cabinet shop that is VERY slow right now.  I feel there is an opportunity with this and it is something that I love to do.  The forester that I am working with is setting up the jobs and has a few coming.  I am hoping to come out better than I did on the last job.

What kind of production are you able to get.  I know this depends on a lot of things.  I do not set the world on fire, bigger equip would definitely help.

Do any of you cut firewood for folks?  I told a couple of people around here what I charge per hour and I thought they were going to have a heart attack.  +/-50 per hour.  I don't think that they realize how much the insurance, tractor all attatchments, saws, etc,etc cost. 

[madmari]

Here we are getting $275 fir/spruce deliver to the mill and $350 for #1 white pine. Ship about 10mbf WP#1's a week- pulp is additional.

Gross- $3500
Trucking-$700- ($70/mbf)

 Now from the remaining $2800, we pay 35% stumpage to the landowner, or $980, leaving us  $1820.

 From that, deduct fuel, insurance, saw chain, oil, parts, maintenance supplies, tax, etc. Salaries come last.

 We're probably slower than most and concentrate on small lots where you HAVE to do good work. Two of us work 8 hrs a day and run a small skidder.

  Really good lots will produce faster with big logs adding up fast. My advice is to get a job through a respected forester, do good work and get repeat business.

  Hardwood pulp is paying good right now and sometimes we get jobs "for the wood". Likin' that.

  Despite the breakdowns, weather and unexpected expenses, it's hard to get this out of your blood.

[Rick Alger]

I do something similar to you. I use horses to skid, and I manage the yard with a farm tractor. I generally work alone. Typical production in spruce/fir is a tri-axle load a week. I aim to pay around $100/mbf for logs and as close as I can get to nothing per ton for pulp.

I have done on-site firewood harvesting and forest grooming. I charge  $600 to $750 a week depending on variables.

The biggest factors for a small scale operator's production are size of the wood and length/difficulty of skid. With 18 inch White Pine and a short skid, I can double or triple my production. With 6 inch hardwoods in rocky going I'm lucky to get a cord a day.

My rates are ridiculously low, reflecting the fact that my area has mostly huge tracts of woodland  primarily managed for fiber.  Not much tree hugging around here.

If you possibly can, get away from the production model. Sell yourself as a silvicultural service. Any wood sold comes off your bill.

Good luck.

[Spalted Dog]

Good point

[Spalted Dog]

I should say that I am a bit scared to buy timber yet, I am only doing the labor.  I work with a forester that coordinates the deal.  I am real new to the business end of logging and do not know enough to take the chance yet.

Sounds like production is similar.  There are good days and bad.

I agree with getting away from the production model.  I am trying to work on a way to sell it.

Thanks for all the input.

[thecfarm]

Most people I find out want the money fast. they don't want to stretch the job out 3 months when a big guy can come in and do it in 3 weeks.They could care less about the land, But when they see a mess,they are the first to cry about it. Most jump at the first logger instead of checking past jobs and than complain about it. Most landowners can not understand why it takes one man and one tractor that long to cut a piece of land when 2 guys with a forwarder and a harvester can do it quicker. or one guy with a skidder.

[madmari]

I used to worry about production AND doing a good, clean job. Once the money is gone, the worry of a messy job will last forever.
  I don't try to compare production with anyone else. It is what it is.

[shortlogger]

Evert job is differnt depending on the distance to mill quality of timber and the terrain the best thing to do is to talk to some local loggers . I usually on the ton give about 2 to 4 dollars less than the tree lenght guys . if its close to the mill and good ground I may give the same . But it may be differnt where you live than it is here .

[Spalted Dog]

I think I am having  hard time when I hear how much some of the local crews can do in a day or week.  I really need to just do a good job.  I have always said in my cabinet business "I would rather be known as slow and good than fast and crappy".  That seems like the way to go in this direction as well.

[madmari]

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. You'll get more on the log pile at the end of the week by taking your time and doing things right. Make the best use of every move.
  Anytime I ever got into the "death spiral" ( hang up a hitch on a stump, hit unmarked trees, break saws, etc) it seemed to only get worse until I stopped... slow down....think.... and get back on track. The "death spiral" rears it's ugly carcass when you don't take time to think things through, usually to meet production goals you dreamed up yourself that are probably unrealistic.  At the end of the day I guarantee you will have more timber on the landing than bulling and jamming. And you won't have to spend the last hour of the day cleaning up your own mess back in the woods.

Don't mean to preach...but I've made the mistakes and hope to help others from doing the same.   

[John Mc]

...I really need to just do a good job.  I have always said in my cabinet business "I would rather be known as slow and good than fast and crappy".  That seems like the way to go in this direction as well.

I think that is the way to go, especially if you are dealing with small lots. Remember, you probably dealing with what amounts to your customer's back yard, not some large, remote timber holding.

The big boys don't typically want to mess with these small jobs (unless tings are really slow for them). There is just too much involved in getting their equipment to the site and getting set up to justify taking on a small job. If you are cutting on percentages, I'd go for a higher percentage than a large outfit would. Your customers may not have any options. I'd rather be known as the guy who "costs a bit more, but is worth it", than be the guy people come to when they are looking for a quick cheap job. You may lose some potential customers, but my bet is that the ones you do get will be better to work with, and more suited to your style. If you're intent on doing a good job, you want customers who appreciate that.

[thecfarm]

madmari,how right you are and how true it is. But there is always someone that says,claims,they can do it better,neater,faster, and make more money than you. I know of a few like that. I just about tell them not on my land you will do it. They are also the same ones that can build or fix something better than me too. 
All that matters to me is that I did not get hurt or break anything and that I'm happy with what I got done that day.

[Spalted Dog]

I think you are right.  Keep the quality high, and get paid for it.  I do not want to overcharge, but I need to make profit.  The smaller equipment takes more time, but I don't mind.  I think it is a pretty good nitche and I don't think there is anyone else in the area doing it.  I will keep work ing on it. 

Thank you all!

[shortlogger]

Most of the people I run into are not as worried about the land as they are the cash. So I look for that nich like the small tracts or that lot that is about to be pushed over and  burned for development sometimes those are freebies the big boys need volume to operate , I also look for pond sites and bug kills working that nich is the secret for me .

[Ohio_Bill]

The last job I did for Timber Improvement  I did for a hourly rate ,  myself and the customer were happy . I opened several roads , drug in about  7000 bf of firewood for the customer and a little over 3000 bf of grade logs that sold for $1800.00 .  I  work by myself  and I charged  70 per hr . I am old and slow and so is my equipment .I hauled the logs for the customer and charged  75 per 1000 for hauling . I worked 2 days   and all went well .

 

 

 

[Okrafarmer]

I'm looking into starting small lots too. Since the bossman owns a tree care company, and we are always paid by people to take down trees in their yard, etc., we are also getting requests to clear land. We've done about three of these so far. In every case it was less than an acre to clear. We have charged hourly on one (and kept all proceeds from logs) and a set rate for the job on two others. we always keep the proceeds from all logs. Trouble is, the buyers around here are paying junk money for wood these days. Pine saw logs, I can't get more than $170 / k  around here, and oak is bringing $300 /k. Hardwood pulp is around $21 / ton and softwood around $17 / ton. Rough times. However, now that we know a little more what we're doing, we may start doing some of the small sites either for free or else give the customer like, 10% on the bigger tracts. Possibly more for prime hardwoods. We're looking to buy a grapple truck soon, and that will make loading and hauling much more efficient than our current means. Equipment is dirt cheap right now, and so we're snapping it up here and there. I'd like to do some 2-5 acre lots and see how it goes. I for sure don't want to get in any trouble with the environmental police, so I need to learn more about legalities of site treatment.

[Okrafarmer]

We have an arborist business, as I may have mentioned before. There is another arborist in town who sold me some walnut logs, and I told him we will pick up his logs of any species, if convenient for us, and take them for free. He has provided us with some nice oak, sweetgum, and tulip logs recently. Today, while I was looking at some oak logs he was cutting, he asked me if I could log off the back of a house lot he was doing basically as a favor to someone in need. Could I do it for the wood? I said, probably not, but I would look at it. I said if he logged it off, I would haul the wood off for free.

So I went to look at it. About a quarter acre of nasty pulpwood behind someone's house, basically. A few marginally useful trees, including a few decent size ERC I would mill up myself, along with a few mediocre sized cherries. The rest was pine that was too small and junk sweetgum, mainly pulp size. I told the arborist, normally I would charge around $1,000 to log that off, and leave the brush and tops where they fall. I was sorry, but I couldn't make any money off it. Hey, with hardwood pulp at $21 a ton, what else am I supposed to do?

[SwampDonkey]

I see what your saying and believe me it's a tough business, I understand that. But it just seems like after awhile you get a reputation of high grading for logs and leaving junk behind, even if it's all on the ground. It reminds me a little bit about guys around here that promise to demolish a barn and all they are after is the steal roofing. They soon got a reputation that put an end to their enterprise.

[BernieBraun]

Doing TSI there are some government programs such as EQUIP & WHIP that cost share landowner costs.  I generally charge by the acre.  $140/acre.  Here in NY we also have the NYC Watershed funding forestry work and The Common Waters Fund.  Funding is for management plans which then request funding for practices such as TSI, fixing eroded logging roads etc...  Foresters are usually good at tracking down this work for their clients.  In some areas the consultants have so much work they hire loggers to do all their TSI. 

[Okrafarmer]

I see what your saying and believe me it's a tough business, I understand that. But it just seems like after awhile you get a reputation of high grading for logs and leaving junk behind, even if it's all on the ground. It reminds me a little bit about guys around here that promise to demolish a barn and all they are after is the steal roofing. They soon got a reputation that put an end to their enterprise.

You are right, SD. But to log it and clean up, I would have charged $3,000. 

[Okrafarmer]

Oh, just to clarify. SD, I wouldn't have high-graded the lot, I would have cleared it, as they were asking. This was not a forestry management situation, but a lot-clearing. I told the man, if he cuts all the trees down and limbs them, I'll haul them off for free. The problem is, around here taking a load of pulpwood to the logyard barely pays for the expenses of getting it there, especially for our little single-axle trucks. He was doing the job for free as a favor to someone he knew, because they needed it done and couldn't pay for it. Supposedly.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah I didn't mean a woodlot "select cut" type thing. I meant taking all the desirable logs and leaving a mess of other wood that could also be marketed on a clearing job, but lesser value. Junk of course is junk, no changing that fact.

[Okrafarmer]

I talked to him again today. As I had thought, the people need to have the trees cut down because they're being sued about the liability of the trees possibly falling onto an adjoining property. They really don't care much about what it looks like, they just don't want to be sued. That's why the arborist is trying to find someone to do it for free. It's quite inaccessible, and either the current owner or somebody else has used that back lot as a private dump for all kinds of trash and junk. It would probably be a favor to them to leave all the limbs on the ground to cover it all up. At least it would be natural cover instead of red-neck ground cover. It's a scruffy poverty-stricken neighborhood. There is a lot of that kind of stuff going on down here, SD, it's a different world than where you're at, I reckon. We would have to charge money to take the trees down and haul them off an awkward spot like that, and even more to clean it up. There just would be no profitable way to do it for free, and they don't have any money.

[SwampDonkey]

Well, you know best how to approach it I suspect. Everything costs these days even if the the trees are free. I wouldn't work for free neither. I'm just saying I wouldn't let wood lay that I could sell or burn for heat.

[Okrafarmer]

I wouldn't either, and I don't. If it isn't profitable, I just walk away. Most of the brush would be pine, not much good for firewood, and the firewood supply to demand ratio around here is formidable. We use our pulp down to the last 3 inches or less, but they don't want anything less than 8' long at one place and 14' long the other place. When people are paying us to clean up, or it's part of the deal, we do. Stuff rots fast down here, brush will all be gone but a few sticks in 3 years. Can barely sell firewood, although we do. I can't burn firewood at my house yet, maybe one day, but the boss heats exclusively with wood. Any time they let us, we leave firewood on site for owner to dispose of. That's all settled before we begin, and included in the price. Same with the brush. In the expensive subdivisions, and nicer areas, they usually want us to clean everything up, and we do. Their price reflects that. We do it however they want, whoever the customer is. We turn away a lot of work that isn't profitable. Like a contact today that wants us to clear a different quarter acre parcel. My boss said they would have to give us $1,000 and that did not include cleaning it up. There was no valuable timber there, we would just haul off all the logs and pulp. They told him, their budget was only $400, and he said that was not enough because it was a long way from the pulp yard and it would cost us more to get each load there than we would receive for it. So he turned that job down, too. He is doing another job somewhere else though, where it is taking down a number of scruffy trees and hauling them off. He is about half done with that one (I haven't been on that job) and they are paying him and the guys to haul the pulpwood off and chip the brush, which they are doing. I don't know how much they are making off this job, but it is one of the ones that he felt was worth it. I'm sure they are paying at least $1500. He hauled off a single-axle truck load of pulp today and one big white pine saw log which I will mill up.