Author Topic: The Death of a Southern Yellow Pine (Read 1849 times)

WDH · « **on:** January 25, 2012, 09:01:02 pm »

Loblolly to be exact. The last two years have had two terrible spring/summer droughts. It really took a toll this year as the stress from last year carried over into this year. By the end of this summer, the accumulated stress so weakened many trees that they did not make it. I had at least 50 trees that died, mostly Southern Red oaks. In the case of Loblolly pine, the stress made the old mature trees weak and susceptible to pine beetles. Here is a 60 year old Loblolly that was attacked by black turpentine beetles, and it did not make it. Even without the drought, Loblolly has a lifespan, and it is shorter than many would think. A 80 to 100 year old Loblolly is very old for the species. Longleaf pine is more long lived than Loblolly. Here are the pitch tubes from the beetle attack on one of the trees. The tree tries to thwart the attack by pumping resin at the site of the attack. These globs of hardened resin are the tell-tale sign of a pine beetle attack.

This was an exceptional forest grown Loblolly, about 22" in diameter and 100 feet tall. It only had a small crown because of the surrounding hardwood, and that probably contributed to its demise.

Here is another shot where you can see three pines that did not make it, and get an idea of their height.

Here is another one that did not make it.

When I felled the first one, I was sure that the tractor was far enough away as it was well over 100 feet away.

Well it was, sort of

. That dent in the fender was from another "incident" not relating to these Loblollys $:-\$ .

All in all, I found five of them, all about the same size and age. Guess what I will be sawing

.

chain · « **Reply #1 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:48:57 pm »

We are having plenty of pre-mature deaths of our short-leafed pine and oak also. Some blame the relatively new exotics, diseases and cycles of insects. Also some suspicion and question the management of a possible limited site, and thickness of the stand as contributing to diseases.

I had commented last year of SL pine mortality in a wild 50 something yr. stand of pole sized trees begining to die off. Other older SL pine up around 80-90 seemingly still growing well in a thinned mixed oak & pine upland stand, but growing on a excellent SL pine site.

But to my dismay, here and there a large pine will die nearly every year now, why?

I've found you have to be on your toes to salvage those pines, Mother Nature does not cut much slack with dead pines as say, with WO and RO mortality. In the great blow-down near here three years past, downed oak still being salvaged this winter.

My own conclusion is that I have not thinned regularly enough nor heavily enough.

pineywoods · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:19:36 pm »

I'm seeing the same thing with loblolly here in north La. Usually they are in clumps of 4 or 5 trees and yes the beetles are there, but not that heavily infested. Mostly mature trees, but some small ones. They do make fine lumber, usually nearly dry when cut.

fishpharmer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:25:17 pm »

WDH, great pics. You calculated distance from the felled tree top to the tractor down to the inch.

Chain, noticed some dead oaks around here, not too many loblolly pines. Don't really have any shortleaf pine.

WDH · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:32:04 pm »

Chain,

They die, because, like us, they get old and become less able to handle the stresses of the environment. The Southern Yellow Pines are "short lived" compared to many of the hardwoods. However, a conifer, the bristlecone pine out West, is supposedly the oldest living thing at over 4000 years old. Life span depends on the species.

In many Southern Yellow Pine stands, when they reach the age of about 45 or so, the mortality is about the same as the growth, so the stand is no longer increasing in volume or value. That is the time to harvest and start the cycle over from a Forest Management standpoint, if that is your objective.

In the big scheme of things in nature, the dead pines have great value because of all the bugs and critters that benefit from the decomposing wood. It is all in how you look at it and in what you value.

James,

You are right. I calculated that right to the inch. It pays to be precise.

Wayne,

There will be some very fine lumber from those trees. The two best ones yielded 64 feet to a 10" top. It will be a whack of board feet. I need to alert the LT15 to the impending demand so that it can get ready

.

Mooseherder · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2012, 11:23:32 pm »

Looks like you'll have enough wood for a very large project.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2012, 11:28:07 pm »

It's a lot like our balsam fir. 80-100 years is pretty much end of their life. They actually live longer and grow larger up my way than in southern NB. In the south 50-60 years is about it. But they tend to be even aged stands and once you see the signs, the whole stand of fir usually dies pretty much together. Up here the insect cycle is mainly spruce budworm. But if the budworm are not in their cycle of devastation the buts of those dying fir will be full of carpenter ants and then the pileated wood pecker makes his square holes to get at the ants. The neighbors lot had a 10 acre stand of mature fir that went down hill fast after it reached it potential. Lots of 18-20" fir all gone to the bugs and wood peckers. Fir only grows to 65-70 feet max up here. Spruce grows a lot taller.

customsawyer · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:27:47 am »

Looks like you got your work cut out for you. I think that it will cut some good lumber.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:38:42 am »

I see a bigger lumber drying shed in my crystal ball.

Norm · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2012, 07:07:40 am »

Sweet! Wish we had a decent dimensional lumber tree in our area. Too far north for those kind and too far south for the regular pines.

Any plans for the lumber?

WDH · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2012, 07:44:36 am »

Norm, a nephew is building a house. I need twenty four 1x8x10's and six 2x8x10's to wrap his columns on his front porch. There is a lot more volume of wood in those trees than that, so there will be a lot more. I always need racks for air dried lumber, so some of it will go into lumber racks to hold lumber. Kind of a circular thing, I guess

.

SD, you are right. Why did I have this "little" shed built

.

thecfarm · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2012, 08:30:50 am »

Sorry to hear about the trees,but looked like it happened just in time. I suppose you are using the tractor to get the logs out?

OneWithWood · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:01:12 pm »

We are seeing similar efffects of the drought here in the tulip poplar and big tooth aspen. I am currently finishing a whack of big tooth into 2x matrial and 1x6 t&g for my basement ceiling and a closet. The tulip is next up for 1x6 t&g to be used as wall panelling.

WDH · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2012, 09:53:49 pm »

Ray, I am skidding them out with the tractor in 21 foot lengths. Punctured a hole in one front tire today on a dead hard-as-nails pine limb about 1 1/2 " in diameter. The woods are hard on a tractor (at least they are on mine)

. Those front 4-wheel drive tractor tires are heavy when you are working alone. Very heavy $:-\$ .

Robert, the Southern Red Oak and the pines are what took it hard here. The tulip poplar are hanging on so far. No aspen this far south. Even so, we are much better off than in East Texas where it is a real mess with a huge amount of drought induced mortality. You cannot fool Mother Nature.

Woodwalker · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:22:20 pm »

Quote from: WDH on January 26, 2012, 09:53:49 pm

Even so, we are much better off than in East Texas where it is a real mess with a huge amount of drought induced mortality.

It's depressing around here, what the drought hasn't killed the bugs will finish killing off.

WDH · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:34:45 pm »

It is a shame, too, because there is some fine pine timber in East Texas.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #16 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:39:17 pm »

And we have had unusually wet growing seasons up here for a few years. Never seen it rain so much as it has the the last 6 or 7 years. Like 10-20 inches above the norm of around 40 inches annually. Now that norm is only based on 80 years of data. But I can remember going for two-three weeks with no rain, but we get 3 or 4 days a week of rain or showers now in the summer. Last summer was so wet that potato production was down 30 %. The river was mud red all summer. I do hate hot dry summers though, that'll take the ambition out of the most ambitious among us.

woodtroll · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2012, 12:37:50 am »

WDH
It did not look like any blue stain in the pine you cut, Do the beetles not vector it there?

WDH · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:28:21 am »

Jeremy,

There is some blue stain, but not a whole lot yet. These trees just recently died (last 4 - 6 weeks), and with the cooler temps, the blue stain has not got too far. However, as you know, the beetles brought the spores in with them on their bodies, so it is there. If I can saw them quick and get them drying, the blue stain might be minimal except in the upper logs where it is already showing.

I believe that these black turpentine beetles are overwintering in these trees. I have had trees hit late in the year by black turpentine beetles that did not die and began growing the next spring. In fact, they are still doing fine. In the case of these trees, however, given their age and the accumulated stress, these beetles put them over the edge.

pineywoods · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:10:03 am »

sawing that stuff can be a real challenge. Sawed this one yesterday, 28 inches dia. The white area is mold that had already started under the bark, which slipped off easily. This is the second cut, under every one of them bumps is a 6 inch or larger knot, hard as concrete and full of reisin. Went through 5 gallons of soapy water and 2 freshly sharpened 10 deg 30 thou set blades. Dead SYP can sometimes be hard as hickory. Got a big pile of 1X16 boards to be used as board and batten siding.

WDH · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:04:51 pm »

I go some knotty tops to saw beams out of to make stacking racks for air drying the lumber, so I will likely have the same trouble

.

Jeff · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:48:35 pm »

Its sad to see those die. I'm in the same boat on my property. My biggest trees died this year too, due to the same sort of conditions. Weakened by drought, attacked by eastern larch beetles. In my case, I'm not sure I can even get mine out of the woods without doing to much damage to the cedar that they stand amongst. I hate to leave them as they are tremendous trees for that area.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:17:56 pm »

I'm just hoping the budworm and the sawflies stay away from the fir on my place. The sawfly menace has already begun in southern New Brunswick as they began a spray program down there last year. I may do fine, because I have a good mix, but the fir is much more advanced in a large part of the area. I don't remember the budworm being too bad for at least 35 years in this area. Because we cut some big fir soon after the last wave that everyone used as a "bargaining" tool to begin clearcutting woodlots. Fir is tricky stuff, you have to cut it at the right time or it's all shot to snot inside. Thinning is key to healthy fir in my opinion. Most of those old stands where never thinned out and fir grows darn thick otherwise.

Tree Feller · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:29:35 pm »

I can attest to the damage the drought did here in East Texas. The Oaks were particularly hard hit.

I had four ~24" dbh Loblolly Pines on my place die late this past summer/fall. I cut one of them down and had it milled and intend to get the other three. Other than a chicken coop, I don't yet have plans for the lumber but it will eventually be put to good use. My neighbor also has three or four dead Pines and I may harvest them, also.

MHineman · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:53:37 pm »

>>bumps is a 6 inch or larger knot, hard as concrete and full of reisin. Went >>through 5 gallons of soapy water

Call Wood-Mizer and ask for the best "lube" mix for your logs. I think some Pine-Sol might be good to cut the resin and keep the blade cleaner.

We don't have many Pine or Fir in central Indiana big enough to make into lumber. I did cut a few a while back and your are right about the difference between the knots and the rest of the wood. Shagbark Hickory is the same way except the wood is hard and the knots VERY HARD.

Something about it dulls the blade very fast and you have to have a sharp blade to keep it cutting even thickness, so very short life on the blade.

WDH · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2012, 07:28:31 am »

Jeff,

I thought about your larch salvage when I came up on these trees. You certainly had a lot more loss than I did. It is the way of the forest, and has been for millenia, but it is still hard to accept.

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2012, 07:57:47 am »

Gday

I know how you feel Danny I just hate seeing good timber go to waste and I dare say there will be alot left standing dead and left to go back to the earth where they came from

I take it no big companies have plans of going in and pulling out the drought affected trees ? I watched dad and my uncles for years do pine removals in state parks and the water commission where they had planted pine it was just an ongoing thinning operation the lill timberjack was good at that dad would just work his way through the block dropping and limbing the ones that were gone or on heir way out and one bloke mainly the truck driver did alill skidding and loaded his own logs and they got good production as they where working on the Big stuff mainly 2'+ dbh 2 to 6 good size trees here and there it dont take long to get 2 or 3 semi loads together a day and they where doing 13 to 15000 a day sawn and two blokes working like that could keep ahead off the mill

Texas whats the game plan over your way for for both the fire damaged and drought affected timber in the south east Mate ??

Regards Chris

DouginUtah · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2012, 11:32:44 am »

Quote

...left to go back to the earth where they came from.

If a tree weighs 6000 pounds where did that weight come from?

Gary_C · « **Reply #28 on:** January 28, 2012, 12:05:38 pm »

From the drought in the south, the disease's and bugs in the west, and the storms in the north, those softwoods are taking a beating. Here is a couple of pictures of my next job.

I've got about 2250 cords of mostly red pine to clean up on this job. Going to be moving into the job this coming week.

woodtroll · « **Reply #29 on:** January 28, 2012, 12:22:29 pm »

It stinks to let the trees rot. But for our situation you just can not utilize all the wood. The time spent getting 3-4 good logs is needed to treat more trees. With the drought stressed trees and the bugs hitting them can you get in front of the bugs and kill (reduce) them. Instead of salvaging the trees they helped kill?

WDH · « **Reply #30 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:13:43 pm »

These were natural pine growing in a hardwood stand. There was a cluster of them of maybe 12 trees. No way to effectively predict which trees will get attacked, if any. Black turpentine beetles are pretty random, unlike the Southern Pine Beetles which kill in an advancing front.

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #31 on:** January 28, 2012, 09:30:15 pm »

Gday

Gary thats going to be an interesting block to work I have only done one blow down block and its a pita doing it motor manual up n down and crawling through rubbish to get to where you needed to cut but the fella in the next block was doing pretty well with a harvester he said just start at the top n keep pulling it out

Regards Chris

WDH · « **Reply #32 on:** January 28, 2012, 09:32:50 pm »

Gary,

That is an awesome mess. Fooling with that would tear up everything that I have, including me, but at least you have the equipment to do the job.

Magicman · « **Reply #33 on:** January 28, 2012, 10:26:23 pm »

Beetle and stress related killed SYP contributes greatly to the success of my sawing business. Farmers and landowners are trying to salvage some of the value of the trees. Many times they have no idea what the lumber will be use for. They just hate to see the trees go to waste.

This week I was given 3 trees which bucked into 10 logs. I never refuse free trees and they will not go to waste.

Gary_C · « **Reply #34 on:** January 28, 2012, 10:35:16 pm »

Yes, it's relatively easy with a harvester when you can work from behind the direction of the wind. But it takes a lot of sharp chains every day. Plus it's good sized diameters so it adds up fast.

According to the estimates, it's 1/3 tipped, 1/3 bent, and 1/3 snapped. The snapped trees are difficult as the part still on the stump will not make a 100 inch stick.

Plus I get to work around that state forest road, a parking lot for the boat ramp on the lake, and numerous snowmobile and 4 wheel trails. There' going to be some conflicts for sure. Plus part of the sale is across a county blacktop that I am not supposed to forward across.

It's going to be fun.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #35 on:** January 29, 2012, 04:17:34 am »

Around here on crown lands and freehold lands the trucks and equipment have right of way. If you play by that rule you'll continue to stay alive.

I can tell ya for certain, that if a truck is coming down the forest road, he ain't stopping. So best be off to the side or someplace else.

caveman · « **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2012, 08:33:48 am »

Beetles of the SYP. I saw a very large loblolly pine (about 36" dbh) that had about two dozen black turpentine pitch tubes on the lower 4' of the trunk. I was walking along the trail with a forester and several students. I assumed that would be a lethal infestation but the forester told me that if the number of pitch tubes is less than the diameter of the tree, then the tree would likely survive. I will not see the tree again until July, but it will be intersting to see if it is still alive.
With Ips and SPB's I have not noticed individual trees surviving attacks.
Caveman

pineywoods · « **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2012, 05:01:57 pm »

Quote from: Magicman on January 28, 2012, 10:26:23 pm

Beetle and stress related killed SYP contributes greatly to the success of my sawing business. Farmers and landowners are trying to salvage some of the value of the trees. Many times they have no idea what the lumber will be use for. They just hate to see the trees go to waste.

This week I was given 3 trees which bucked into 10 logs. I never refuse free trees and they will not go to waste.

Always good for "grumpy old men" projects eh Lynn...

WDH · « **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2012, 09:04:04 pm »

The Southern Pine Beetle is the most deadly one, for sure.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #39 on:** January 31, 2012, 06:09:17 pm »

Perhaps soon to be eclipsed by the Enerald Ash Beetle

Woodwalker · « **Reply #40 on:** January 31, 2012, 07:49:29 pm »

It don't matter too much around here which one, Southern Pine Beetle, Enerald Ash Beetle, IPS Beetle, Black turpentine beetles, drought, the result is the same; A lot of dead timber.

WDH · « **Reply #41 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:34:33 pm »

I guess that the title of this thread really applies to East Texas.

Sixacresand · « **Reply #42 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:51:45 pm »

I just cut three dead pines, which died, I'm guessing, in 2011. It still had brown pine needles on it, however some bark had dried and fell off. It basically took a whole day to drag the logs out to a clearing and load onto a trailer. Got some real nice boards out of it, so it was well worth the time and effort.

WDH · « **Reply #43 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:11:24 pm »

I cut these two beams for benches from two of these trees. They are 4" thick, 19" wide, and 10' long.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #44 on:** January 31, 2012, 11:19:24 pm »

Those will make sturdy benches alright.

Nice looking planks. What about pitch near the bark. Hate to gum up them Carharts.

Now that I mention the Carharts. I had a good laugh when a fellow bush whacker bought a new pair of Carhart jeans for working in the bush with his brush saw. He was showing his new duds off one morning. He had them ripped out on the cuffs by the end of the day.

Me, I just wear a $24 dollar pair of Dickies and they last 3 years. Usually, the raspberry bushes wear the knees out. That's like walking in living sand paper.

rwthom279 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 01, 2012, 12:01:33 am »

I know its not SYP related, but saw others expressing concerns for their regions.

Here, we are losing our Elm and Locust - Black is all but gone, honey locust is right on its heels. You can spot a locust a mile away....only "brown" top in all the green. Starting to see some issues in the oaks too. Seemingly random deaths in what appears a quite healthy tree. The wild vines are getting out of control to the point of killing the host tree. Its quite depressing.

But as said before, been going on for many moons.

WDH · « **Reply #46 on:** February 01, 2012, 07:11:39 am »

SD,

So what is a little pitch on the carharts? Makes you look like that you have been working

.

rwthom,

There are many enemies of trees, both bacteria, fungal, invasive insects, etc. There is a war always going on. Humans are probably the worst

.

WDH · « **Reply #47 on:** February 17, 2012, 09:01:14 pm »

Well, these five trees sawed out to 2500 BF., mostly 4/4 at 1 1/16" thick. Maybe someone needs a fence or some horse stalls

. Some of it will be used to finish the columns on the front porch of my nephew's new house.

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #48 on:** February 17, 2012, 09:07:00 pm »

Looking great there Danny

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #49 on:** February 17, 2012, 09:43:22 pm »

Nice!! The sticker stacker did a mighty fine job of it to.

WDH · « **Reply #50 on:** February 17, 2012, 09:59:11 pm »

My sticker-stacker has a lot of experience stacking stickers

.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #51 on:** February 17, 2012, 10:14:26 pm »

We need to come up with a tung twister here, like the wood chuck diddy.

WDH · « **Reply #52 on:** February 17, 2012, 10:18:57 pm »

By the way, SD, one with 2 1/2 months of winter left, the daffodils were specially for you

.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #53 on:** February 17, 2012, 10:45:02 pm »

Had to go take a second glance.

Now one thing I did notice was the grass will soon need mowing.

WDH · « **Reply #54 on:** February 17, 2012, 10:51:48 pm »

That's a fact. I have not had any snow load issues with the new shed so far

. Forum member Red will be pleased to hear that

.

fat olde elf · « **Reply #55 on:** February 22, 2012, 01:37:23 am »

Nice touch with the daffodills WDH. You ae only about a week ahead of us here in NC. All of your posts take on epic status. Good Job...........

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Author Topic: The Death of a Southern Yellow Pine (Read 1849 times)