A question of fuel

[Gary_C]

Yes Paul, I agree with much of what Stihlnorm said, except the following.

Problem #1 Debris in fuel - Ethanol gums rapidly in the tank and fuel delivery system as the fuel sits. However, ethanol is also a powerful solvent that will strip away those deposits and introduce those particles back into the fuel stream. This leads to clogged filters, injectors and carbs.

Ethanol cannot do both, create the deposits and then strip them away.

Yes gasoline, with or without ethanol is a volatile blend of compounds and has a short shelf life. You are going to have problems in running small engines and cars too. I have a lowboy trailer with a pony motor that is out of service unless that pony motor will start and run briefly. And I do have problems with that pony motor all the time. Nothing worse than sitting along a busy highway trying to unload something and that DanGed thing will not start. I've threatened to get one of those portable hydraulic power packs and throw that gas engine away but since I've put a new carb on that motor, it's starting good. But I don't just blame the ethanol in the gas I use for that B&S junk motor. Those motor manufacturers have known for a long time there is ethanol in the gas and still they send those motors out with the cheapest material in those fuel systems.

[beenthere]

We can get non-ethanol fuel and I use it. Get 10% better gas mileage in my 2009 SUV and it costs 8-10 cents a gallon more than the "up to 10% ethanol" fuel. That equates to just under 3% additional cost. I hear the E85 gets even poorer mileage that surely must eat up some of the price advantage.

My gas engines seem to like the non-ethanol fuel better, and for sure my Stihl saw runs better on it. It is apparently fact that the shelf life is shorter with the ethanol, and we can't know how much of that "life" has been used up before we get it from the pump. And if addatives extend that shelf life, why are they not "added" to the fuel at the refinery?

I'd like to see the Gov't get out of the business of pushing ethanol for fuel, and let it now fly on its own merits. If I were raising corn, I'd be all for it tho!! 

[Al_Smith]

  Did I ruffle some tail feathers again ??

Depends on how you look at things I guess .Supposedly the ethanol blended gas is less polluting in cold weather or at least they say it is .

I think it's pretty much a given fact it doesn't do as good regarding milage per gallon as unblended gasoline .Of course that data could be skewed to for all we know .

It's a known fact it causes deteriation of seals etc .That's not skewed .

Now maybe  if you had 3000 acres under cultivation in Iowa perhaps or 1500 in north west Ohio in corn you'd be all for it .Failing to realize that in spite of increased prices for corn you aren't able to realize much more profit if you figure in factors such as increased seed prices ,fertilizer or diesel fuel not to count equipment price increases .Geeze have you checked prices for farm land lately ?You'd about think it was all setting atop a gold mine .

Now Mr farmer just trot on down to the local supermarket and buy those 2 dollar a dozen eggs and 3.50 -4 buck a pound ground beef or 10 dollar a pound T-bones .All that animal feed stock is now going into high tech moon shine .

So just how well is this working ? ;)It's working pretty darn good for Monsanto ,Central Soya,Arthur Daniels Midland ,John-Deere or British petrolium though .

It seems like the rest of us are like that poor little runt piglet stuck at the end of the line on that proverbial hind teat .

[John Mc]

... And if addatives extend that shelf life, why are they not "added" to the fuel at the refinery?

The ethanol isn't added at the refinery either. It's blended at regional distribution centers, who receive it by truck or rail. Several reasons for this, among them are the short shelf life of the blended fuel, and the fact that the pipeline owners don't want the stuff flowing through their lines.

Did I ruffle some tail feathers again ??

You wouldn't be Al if you didn't do that from time-to-time. A little feather ruffling is not necessarily a bad thing... it can get some good discussion going. Fortunately, the Forestry Forum does not seem to be plagued with folks who take that ruffling too far (thanks to our fearless Admins)

[Al_Smith]

  Shall we just say the ruffling of the feathers does make for lively conversation at times .

Then  they got on this kick now the flavor of the month is natural gas that all the sudden appeared as magic out of the clear blue .It depends on which side of the fence you're on over that stuff too .

I mean you know if you have financial interests in ethanol of course you'll evangelise it .Natural gas too .What about the big ruckus in northern Ohio here of late though ? How about pollution from disposed of hydrofracking fluids they assured the general public could and would not happen .

They come back with the emotional issue that it makes us more independent of foreign  oil .Well okay use 10-15 percent less foreign oil ,use the same amount of fuel to get 10-15 percent less milage and pay the same ,actually more .

Figures don't lie but liars figure and most likely the same accountants that Ken Lay used on the Enron thing are involved in this business  too .We'll never know for sure though .They won't tell us the truth ,probabley never will .

[Ward Barnes]

  Humm .... A Chainsaw run on Natural Gas ...   

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

[Al_Smith]

  I suppose it's possible but I'm not exactly certain how so on a 2 cycle  .4 cycle you just screw on a little tank like a
BernzOmatic and have at it .

[westyswoods]

I lay no claim to being expert on this or any other subject for that matter. I do know that my fuel mixtures for any two cycles are a mid octane non ethanol fuel with a good oil mix. The other piece is I never mix more than can be used in a relative short period of time.

Ruined two saws many many many years ago before I learned the hard way.

Westy

[JohnG28]

Al, I hear you on this hydrofracking nonsense.  They're pushing this really hard in our area.  It seems like one of the worst ideas I've heard of in some time...push chemicals into the ground at pressures enough to crack bedrock.  Don't worry, it's not bad at all. It will help make us more energy independent.  Yep.  Can't wait until that is the new Love Canal in our back yard.

[Al_Smith]

Love canal was some time ago .If memory serves me correctly I believe Oxidental chemical was the liar in that case .

[JohnG28]

Quite some time ago, came out in the '70s or '80s I believe.  That was one big mess.  I don't know where this fracking will go, just hope it's not bad.  From what I understand, here in NY they can basically do this more or less unregulated. I don't know this for certain and don't need to get into politics here though. It does make me question how necessary this really is though.

[submarinesailor]

From what I understand, here in NY they can basically do this more or less unregulated.

John,

Currently in the state of NY I believe there is a complete and total ban on fracking.  Because of this almost no one is drill.  The ban was suppose to end last summer but the goveraor extended it.  More studies were needed.  I think they are currently waiting for the EPA to complete their study before NY moves forward.

Bruce

[LorenB]

Howdy Folks:

A local marina is now selling 93 octane without Ethanol to any customer, not just the boaters.  The saw seems to like it and the price per gallon is just a few cents above what the 92 E10 is selling for.

During the boating season they just about don't shut their pumps off.  Outboards don't like E10.

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

I’m glad to hear about the possibility of getting high octane, no-alcohol fuel at marinas.  That’s another source. 

I’ve been burning aviation gasoline (avgas) for years in all my off-road engines, including my chainsaws.  It was recommended to me by the guy who sold me the Husky. 

I have learned from knowledgeable pilots that avgas does not spoil the way automotive gasoline does.  This means that it will keep, both in a can and in the saw, much longer than automotive gas.  I don’t try to get it to last forever and if an engine won’t be run for a while I try to burn the fuel in the tank, or transfer the gas to a different engine. 

I tried to buy avgas at a major airport in the Cincinnati area, and they wouldn’t sell it to me unless I had an airplane for them to pump it into.  I have no idea what they thought I was going to do with it other than what I told them, but I left without the gas.  I have since found a small-town airport that doesn’t see much traffic where the management is happy to allow me to fill my fuel cans with the 100LL fuel.  That number indicates 100 octane, Low Lead.  I don’t know if it really is 100 octane, but it’s high enough.  I’m sure that “low lead” is a relative term, referring to the lead content of avgas from thirty years ago. 

If you can get it, I strongly recommend avgas.  You will avoid numerous problems.  In my area, the price is about 20% higher than automotive gas.  Don't burn it in your car; the lead will clog your catalytic converter. 

One last benefit: Avgas doesn’t stink the way automotive gas does.  It smells the way gasoline smelled fifty years ago. 

[John Mc]

I have learned from knowledgeable pilots that avgas does not spoil the way automotive gasoline does.  This means that it will keep, both in a can and in the saw, much longer than automotive gas.

It does have much longer shelf life. I've known pilots to burn fuel over a year old with no problem. I try to fly more often than that, but I've never had any problems attributable to old fuel, nor have  run into a pilot who experienced those problems - fuel contamination, yes, but "stale" fuel, no.

I have since found a small-town airport that doesn’t see much traffic where the management is happy to allow me to fill my fuel cans with the 100LL fuel.  That number indicates 100 octane, Low Lead.  I don’t know if it really is 100 octane, but it’s high enough.  I’m sure that “low lead” is a relative term, referring to the lead content of avgas from thirty years ago.

Yes, it's 100 octane. In fact, it's over 100 octane, if you measure it the same way auto fuel is measured. You are correct that the "low lead" in the name is relative. The original 100 octane avgas had much more lead. However, if I recall correctly, the spec for 100LL allows several times the amount of lead that the old leaded auto fuel did. (In more recent years, they've tended to do what they can to cut the lead to the bare minimum needed to meet the 100 octane requirement.

In my area, the price is about 20% higher than automotive gas.

You're doing a lot better than we are out here. When I last toped off a few days ago, the price of 100LL was $6 per gallon

[KB0NES]

I'm not sure if anyone else has seen (or posted) this handy reference.

http://pure-gas.org/

This site has a state by state breakdown of the stations that sell Ethanol-free gasoline. They list the available octane number also. They even provide Google Earth maps and have a new iPhone app too!

I have used both E10 and alcohol free fuel but I now use non-Ethanol only as then I don't worry about the shelf life as much.

Phil 

[arojay]

If one can get it, race fuel for snowmachines, bikes, etc. is unleaded and high octane.  It can be mixed with pump regular to get to the optimum RON for your application.

GARY C.  I had problems with my Honda 3500 watt generator when the weather got cold.  There is a small hose that, if I remember correctly, vents the crankcase fumes into the intake side of the carb.  Honda mechanic showed me to slit this hose, venting to the atmosphere.  End of problem.   

[Al_Smith]

  Let me stir the pot a little more here .

It's known fact that ethanol deteriates seals and components made of Buna-N .Fact just recently I ordered and recieved new componets to rebuild a couple of Briggs "pulsa jet " carbs because if this fact .It's a bit chilly to install them but if things hold true as they always have it will warm up one of those days .

On the brighter side of ethanol it was at one time  almost manditory to use some type of gasoline that either had deicer from the pump or to add deicer such as "ice guard " or "dry gas " .Since they made use go to blended fuels I've never had a fuel line freeze up on me .

Let me tell you  from experiance a frozen fuel line is a gigantic pain in the buttocks .I mean it isn't like you can thaw a gas line with a propane torch unless you have a death wish ya know .

[Hobnob2]

We've been running E10 93 octane for many years without any issues.  Consistently, we've left fuel in the tank for months, fuel in the carb for months, fuel in the can for months - we've been handling fuel completely wrong.  Of course, now I'll start having all sorts of fuel issues.  Knock on wood (he says, tapping on his cranium).

I'm prompted to post today because I just visited a highly respected dealer for the first time, who recommended using fuel within 2 weeks of purchase!!!  Before letting a saw sit for more than 2 weeks he also says to dump the tank, run the saw dry, even pull the choke at the last second before it dies to pull the last bit of fuel out of the carb.  He also says it's best to purchase mid-grade gas (E10 89 octane, around here) because the 93 octane gets purchased so seldom that it sits in the underground tanks at the gas station for too long.  89 is enough octane and is fresher, he says.  Makes sense to me.  I'm going to try his tips.

Safe work, all.

[rwthom279]

He also says it's best to purchase mid-grade gas (E10 89 octane, around here) because the 93 octane gets purchased so seldom that it sits in the underground tanks at the gas station for too long.

Same problem here, but our local station is small, and routine filter maintenance is not the best. Bought 5 gal of 93 and got 1½ qts of water...what a fun afternoon that was 

I know that in my Ol' Iron toys, it ALL hates e10 fuels.  But most of it was built when lead was safe to eat too    Have worked on several carbs where the E10 has festered in them to long, and the corrosive effects are horrendous.  Sometimes to a point of replacement.  Accelerator pump bores seem to suffer the worst.

I have heard good "news" about the marine grade of Sta-Bil, and am using that personally.  But I would have to say the best defense is proper storage and usage.  As with most things in life I reckon

Al_Smith put it best I believe when he referred to us little guys as the folks stuck with the "hind teat" in this fuel issue.  I won't dreadge up the politics as they have already been discussed, but I believe its all a scam too, as all my vehicles suffer from poorer fuel mileage and pith poor performance.  Heaven forbid if its got points and a carb...there is no "tune-up" that can bring 'em to their former glory when E10 is in the tank      

[petefrombearswamp]

I have repeated here many times , my Homelite Super XL12, 1973 vintage which I leave at my camp in the Adirondacks and I have left e10 fuel in it since it was the only gas available here in NYS  quite a few years ago, and the thing starts on the third or fourth pull every time.
I am heading there tomorrow afternoon for a weekend of fun, fishing  and chicken BBQ  and will try it then.
If it doesn't start as above I will post here again and eat crow.
I don't see all the fuss about ethanol.
(can I be a closet DEMOCRAT?) nope I am a registered independent.
As an aside, I took it to the local Homelite dealer in Cortland NY about 25 years ago and he looked in the cylinder which was scored and told me to run it till it dies. It still runs but not on a regular basis.