A question of fuel

[Ward Barnes]

Howdy: 

I have the choice of fuels to use in my 2007 MS 390.  I can use either 87, 89, or 92 octane gas/oil with 10 percent ethanol or 87 octane real gas (no ethanol).  I have been using the 92 octane w/ethanol for several years on the advice of my dealer who said that there is a 30 degree drop in head temperature for each step up in octane rating.  The owners manual calls for 89 octane, but, does not mention the ethanol stuff.  I do not currently have a source for the higher octane non-ethanol gas.  Now I am wondering, which would be best 89 or 92 octane with ethanol or 87 octane without ethanol?

God Bless, Ward.

[albirk]

I run the 87 with fuel treatment saws,weedeat,leaf blower all take the same mix

[T Welsh]

Ward, all saw,s will run lower grade fuels with out issue,s. The problem with the ethanol added in is when you let the fuel in the tanks for an extended period of time,it will erode seals and rubber pretty fast. we never had a problem with fuel lines and impluse hoses in the last 30 years and in the last 5 to 8 years I have had to change out at  least 3 or 4 hoses because of degradation. Maybe dump the gas from the tank when done using saw for firewood season and run it till it dies and put it away dry.we run our saw,s everyday and have no issue,s with gas,we also go through 5 gallons of mix a week. I tell my brother to do this to his saw after using it,because he only uses it for about two weeks out of the year. Tim

[Al_Smith]

The rascals make us use ethanol blended gasoline under the guise of less polutants etc while all the while knowing it takes 40 percent more alcohol than gasoline to produce the same power .

Ethanol is the greastest hoax ever pulled on the American public since Billy SolEstes and the Hunt brothers .About 80 percent of all ethanol producing plants go bankrupt within two years of operation and are bought up by several big conglomerants for pennys on the dollar .

[Al_Smith]

Now that I've whined about high tech moonshine to the subject .

About the only option left for high octane non ethanol gasoline is aviation fuel .Not all airports will sell the stuff though ,depends .

Here of late the carb kits in addition to OEM Stihl crankshaft seals are made of a material which is more robust to degradation than the older Buna-n material which was used for decades before .

I might get a couple years between carb rebuilds but that's about it .On that though I've gotten real good at rebuilding carbs because I've done so many .

[drilldog]

Try checking with all of the gas stations in your area. Even ask if they know of any ethanol free gas available or if they ever intend on getting it. There is a station in my area (5 blocks from my house) that started carrying regular ethanol free gas and just recently started carrying premium ethanol free. Maybe you will get lucky and a station in your area will see that there is a market for it. The mentioned station is always busy with 4 wheelers, snowmobiles, lawn mowers, etc.

[Stihlnorm]

the higher the octane the better to a point. basically buys you more time in storage. you want to stay above 89(ron)

the main issues with ethanol are as follows...

Problem #1 Debris in fuel - Ethanol gums rapidly in the tank and fuel delivery system as the fuel sits. However, ethanol is also a powerful solvent that will strip away those deposits and introduce those particles back into the fuel stream. This leads to clogged filters, injectors and carbs.

 

Problem #2 Excessive water in fuel and phase separation – Ethanol attracts moisture from the atmosphere, forming an ethanol/water solution mixed in the gasoline. Ethanol fuels will naturally hold .5% water in suspension, but when water levels exceed this threshold, or when the fuel cools significantly, the ethanol/water drops out of suspension. This is phase separation. Ethanol provides a significant amount of the fuels octane, so when the ethanol/water solution drops to the bottom of the tank, the remaining fuel is left without enough octane to properly operate the engine. Additionally, the ethanol/water solution can be partially combustible, which also leads to engine damage.

 

Problem #3 Ethanol breaks down quickly – As ethanol evaporates the fuel loses octane and becomes stale quickly and because ethanol blended fuels rely so heavily on the ethanol to boost the octane rating of the fuel the results are numerous. This causes hard starting, pinging ( pre ignition ), engine knock ( detonation ), loss of power and engine damage.

 

Problem #4 Ethanol causes poor performance and decreased fuel economy – Ethanol does not produce as much energy as traditional fuel. This results in inefficient combustion, poor throttle response and poor fuel economy.

 

[John Mc]

Stihlnorm gies a good summary on ethanol's problems. To add to his points a bit:

the higher the octane the better to a point. basically buys you more time in storage. you want to stay above 89(ron)

Once you get above the octane rating required to avoid detonation (which varies with different engines and operating conditions), you don't gain anything by going higher.

The one exception to this is that since fuel will tend to lose octane rating over time as various components of the fuel evaporate off, starting with a higher octane than absolutely needed to run the engine safely gives you some extra margin or a bit of extra shelf life.

Ethanol provides a significant amount of the fuels octane, so when the ethanol/water solution drops to the bottom of the tank, the remaining fuel is left without enough octane to properly operate the engine.

Specifically, the ethanol an an E10 blend (10% ethanol) adds about 3 or 4 points of octane rating. So for example the "pure gas" gas blend stock used to make 91-93 octane E10 blend would have only about 89 octane before blending. (wouldn't it be great if they'd just sell you the blend stock?)

Additionally, the ethanol/water solution can be partially combustible, which also leads to engine damage.

That ethanol/water mix is also corrosive.

Problem #4 Ethanol causes poor performance and decreased fuel economy – Ethanol does not produce as much energy as traditional fuel. This results in inefficient combustion, poor throttle response and poor fuel economy.

I've checked our two family cars extensively (2002 and 2004 models - so they were made well after E10 gas became common). On one, I get about 10% worse gas mileage when running E10 gas. On the other, I get 12-13% worse mileage with E10.

In the summer, you can find premium ethanol-free gas here in VT, if you look around for it. Since that only costs about 7% more than the E10 regular gas, I'm ahead of the game buying the premium E0 gas.

Some of the biggest problems with ethanol tend to relate to how long it's been sitting. (It takes time for it to absorb enough moisture out of the air to cause phase separation. It also takes time for ethanol and other components to evaporate off, lowering the octane rating.) So guys who buy fresh fuel, and go through it quickly tend to have less problems with it than folks who may buy some, use a bit, and let the rest sit a bit. Weekend warriors (like me) need to be more careful about keeping an eye on what shape their fuel is in.

[Norm]

I've been running ethanol blended fuel for 20 years with no more problems than the unblended I bought before. Nice to see the fuel makers found a whipping boy for their crappy gas though.

[Bill Gaiche]

I run premium fuel in all my 2 cycle engines and can say that it has worked fine for me. bg

[mad murdock]

Norm, I don't doubt you have had good results with blended fuel. Ethanol blends by being mandated under the guise of "cleaner burning" is nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse to get more tax dollars without having to "pay " for it politically.  Physical properties of fuels show the difference in BTU's of given quantities of any fuel. You can't get more energy released from a fuel with less btu potential, in my opinion.  You are probably more diligent than the average bear in keeping up on your preventative maintenance to not have had the problems that ethanol blends can incur.

[John Mc]

The majority of ethanol-related problems can be solved by buying fresh fuel, and using it up quickly. Don't store it in a small engine's fuel tank and don't leave it in the carb for any length of time.

Yes, there are those engines that just plain don't like ethanol (my old garden tractor is one of them). There are those that need an older fuel line or diaphragm replaced with something ethanol resistant. But if you are someone who turns over your fuel regularly and quickly, you'll avoid a lot of the problems.

You will see a loss in gas mileage in vehicles burning E10 gas. Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of gas, so in theory, if E10 burns with the same efficiency that gas does, you should see about a 3.3% reduction in MPG (since only 10% of your fuel is "missing" 33% of the energy of gas). For some reason, I see a drop that ranges from 3 to 4 times that amount -- and this is on relatively modern cars (2002 and 2004 model years). I can only conclude that there is more going on here than just the straight energy content of the fuel.

Getting back to chainsaws: I have noticed a difference in tuning needed to run E10 blends, as compared to "straight gas". If I'm set for pure gas, when I put the E10 in, I'll be running a bit lean. In he summer, when both E0 and E10 are available around here, I'll sometimes tune for E10 when I think there's a chance I'll be switching back and forth -- that way, the worst case is I'm running a bit rich when I'm on E0. (The better way would be to stick with one type, or tune more frequently, but sometimes that just doesn't happen when I'm working with the land co-op and we're sharing fuel. Generally, I tend to burn only my own fuel, but you never know...)

The chainsaw shops with whom I've spoken have seen an increase in "toasted" cylinders as E10 has become more widespread. Some have also noticed more frequent corrosion. Hard to say how much of this is from the rash of new chainsaw owners who started burning more wood as oil and gas prices shot up, and how much of this is from gas. However, Just last week, I ran into two friends who've been woodburners for 25+ years who each just burnt up their chainsaws. (We did have one gas station that got a bad load of fuel, but that's a 40 minute drive from us, and neither of them bought fuel there. There have been no other reports of bad loads at stations closer by -- looks like that one was just a fluke.)

And I see that once again, I got off on a long rambling rant. I meant to just rite the first two paragraphs, but for some reason, the whole ethanol issue just punches my buttons...

John Mc

[Al_Smith]

The ethanol situation has caused problems not only on two cycle engines but just nearly every engine that uses it .

The auto manufacuers had to go to more robust materials for seals because of it .The diaphragm fuel pumps on lawn mower type engines only last about 5 years and all kinds of problems .

Now here you go about lawnmower engines .The "pulsa-jet" carbs which Briggs uses is just a float carb with a diaphragm pump . Many times the repair shops just stick a new carb on them to the tune of 150 bucks a pop when all it is is bad pump innards .The complete rebuild kit for those pumps is 8 bucks through Baileys .

Being a tight wad I just buy the diaphragms for under a buck a pop which is two dollars per carb .---Al the miser ---

[Gary_C]

I will echo what Norm has said. But neither of us has an agenda to blame ethanol for all the problems with running small engines. Could it be that chainsaw manufacturers are making saws that are less reliable and more prone to problems?

And I couldn't abuse my saw any more. Since I do essentially all my sawing with a harvester, my chainsaw lays in the back of the pickup just about all the time. I can and do go months without running it and when I need it, it has the last gas I put in it and yet it starts right off. I've never had it in the shop but once and that was to replace the rusted out muffler. So I don't have the time nor the desire to blame something for any problems with the saw.

Last winter I lived out in the woods in far below zero weather and relied on a new Honda generator for power. One morning it -30 or more and the generator was not running well. So I took it back to the place I bought it to see what was wrong. And the first thing the service man tried to do was blame it on ethanol in the gas. Told me I should get a can of Heat and put in the gas. And I said to him "so the problem is ethanol in the gas and the solution is to get a jug of alcohol and put in the tank?" He though a minute and said "you're right." So he brought it inside and let it thaw out. Turns out the problem there was frost forming on the throttle plate and the air inlet to the carb. So the solution was to stay home when it gets that cold. The generator is made to run on any amount of ethanol in the gas and it does just fine. I always buy regular gas with whatever ethanol it contains and still no problems.

[Paul_H]

What is this "agenda" BS thrown around here lately whenever it might be suggested that ethanol might be a factor in some issues with small engines? I don't agree that ethanol is evil but lets not pretend that it doesn't cause some problems that need to be discussed.
I know Stihlnorm personally and he knows what he is talking about.He wasn't railing against corn,just issues with ethanol in engines that should be kept in mind when using it or storing it.

[Gary_C]

Paul, since I was the one using the word "agenda" I will respond with this.

Ethanol is the greastest hoax ever pulled on the American public since Billy SolEstes and the Hunt brothers .About 80 percent of all ethanol producing plants go bankrupt within two years of operation and are bought up by several big conglomerants for pennys on the dollar .

I have never said that ethanol nor gasoline for that matter does not cause problems in small engines. What I have said is that blaming ethanol for all the problems in running small engines is not right. Here from Wiki is a good description of what the blend of organic compounds called gasoline contains.

The various refinery streams blended to make gasoline have different characteristics. Some important streams are:

straight-run gasoline is distilled directly from crude oil. Once the leading source of fuel, its low octane rating required lead additives. It is low in aromatics (depending on the grade of crude oil), containing some naphthenes (cycloalkanes) and no olefins. About 0-20% of gasoline is derived from this material, in part because the supply of this fraction is insufficient and its RON is too low.
reformate, produced in a catalytic reformer with a high octane rating and high aromatic content, and very low olefins (alkenes). Most of the benzene, toluene, and xylene (the so-called BTX) are more valuable as chemical feedstocks and are thus removed to some extent.
cat cracked gasoline or cat cracked naphtha, produced from a catalytic cracker, with a moderate octane rating, high olefins (alkene) content, and moderate aromatics level.
hydrocrackate (heavy, mid, and light) produced from a hydrocracker, with medium to low octane rating and moderate aromatic levels.
alkylate is produced in an alkylation unit, involving the addition of isobutane to alkenes giving branched chains but low aromatics.
isomerate is obtained by isomerizing low octane straight run gasoline to iso-parafins (like isooctane).
The terms above are the jargon used in the oil industry but terminology varies.

Overall, a typical gasoline is predominantly a mixture of paraffins (alkanes), naphthenes (cycloalkanes), and olefins (alkenes). The actual ratio depends on:

the oil refinery that makes the gasoline, as not all refineries have the same set of processing units;
crude oil feed used by the refinery;
the grade of gasoline, in particular, the octane rating.
Currently, many countries set limits on gasoline aromatics in general, benzene in particular, and olefin (alkene) content. Such regulations led to increasing preference for high octane pure paraffin (alkane) components, such as alkylate, and is forcing refineries to add processing units to reduce benzene content.

Gasoline can also contain other organic compounds, such as organic ethers (deliberately added), plus small levels of contaminants, in particular organosulfur compounds, but these are usually removed at the refinery.

So blaming ethanol for all the ills of running small engines is just not right. And that is what Norm said also.

Nice to see the fuel makers found a whipping boy for their crappy gas though.

[Paul_H]

Gary,
Al is a self professed bar room lawyer so most wouldn't take the post you quoted him too seriously but I doubt that he has any agenda other than letting off a bit of steam.
I like the ideas of alternate fuels and have plans and parts purchased to make ethanol one day soon.
Stihlnorm and other technicians like him don't look to politics but to solving problems related to fuels whatever they may be and to me it's worth listening to.

[Ward Barnes]

Howdy Folks:

A local marina is now selling 93 octane without Ethanol to any customer, not just the boaters.  The saw seems to like it and the price per gallon is just a few cents above what the 92 E10 is selling for.

During the boating season they just about don't shut their pumps off.  Outboards don't like E10.

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

[John Mc]

Hey, I'll admit, I do tend to go overboard. I don't have an "agenda" against ethanol. I have an agenda against things that don't work well, or don't make sense, particularly if they are also being heavily subsidized by tax dollars (and yes, I'm well aware of the fact that just about every form of energy used in the US is subsidized in some way - probably one of the reasons we're such energy hogs in the US as compared to many other countries.). I grew up on a farm in "corn country" (maybe not quite to the extent that Iowa is corn country, but it was - and still is - a major crop for the farmers in that area).

What really bugs me is that it receives a huge subsidy, supposedly to help foster our independence from imported oil. I don't see how an additive that causes a drop of anywhere from 9 to 13% in Fuel economy when blended at 10% with gas is accomplishing anything on that front. (Mileage as tracked in detail on four different vehicles that I've followed, including some "blind" tests.)

The ethanol mandate adopted by our friends in Washington does not actually specify a percent to blend (or even a percent of total fuel sales). It specifies a straight gallon amount to be sold each year (and increasing year-over-year). The original intent was that it would spur the market for E85 fuel. In that, it's failed miserably. In all of my travels, I've only seen one E85 pump in my life.

If E85 were widely available (and at a somewhat competitive price), my next vehicle would be one able to run it, and I'd buy that fuel willingly (at least for use in my cars). Widespread use of E85 would in fact reduce our dependence on foreign oil. E85 is in fact more stable than E10 blends, so shelf life would not be as much of an issue as it is now.

John Mc

[John Mc]

A local marina is now selling 93 octane without Ethanol to any customer, not just the boaters.  The saw seems to like it and the price per gallon is just a few cents above what the 92 E10 is selling for.

Nice that you can get it. It's only available in the summertime around here.

[Gary_C]

Yes Paul, I agree with much of what Stihlnorm said, except the following.

Problem #1 Debris in fuel - Ethanol gums rapidly in the tank and fuel delivery system as the fuel sits. However, ethanol is also a powerful solvent that will strip away those deposits and introduce those particles back into the fuel stream. This leads to clogged filters, injectors and carbs.

Ethanol cannot do both, create the deposits and then strip them away.

Yes gasoline, with or without ethanol is a volatile blend of compounds and has a short shelf life. You are going to have problems in running small engines and cars too. I have a lowboy trailer with a pony motor that is out of service unless that pony motor will start and run briefly. And I do have problems with that pony motor all the time. Nothing worse than sitting along a busy highway trying to unload something and that DanGed thing will not start. I've threatened to get one of those portable hydraulic power packs and throw that gas engine away but since I've put a new carb on that motor, it's starting good. But I don't just blame the ethanol in the gas I use for that B&S junk motor. Those motor manufacturers have known for a long time there is ethanol in the gas and still they send those motors out with the cheapest material in those fuel systems.

[beenthere]

We can get non-ethanol fuel and I use it. Get 10% better gas mileage in my 2009 SUV and it costs 8-10 cents a gallon more than the "up to 10% ethanol" fuel. That equates to just under 3% additional cost. I hear the E85 gets even poorer mileage that surely must eat up some of the price advantage.

My gas engines seem to like the non-ethanol fuel better, and for sure my Stihl saw runs better on it. It is apparently fact that the shelf life is shorter with the ethanol, and we can't know how much of that "life" has been used up before we get it from the pump. And if addatives extend that shelf life, why are they not "added" to the fuel at the refinery?

I'd like to see the Gov't get out of the business of pushing ethanol for fuel, and let it now fly on its own merits. If I were raising corn, I'd be all for it tho!! 

[Al_Smith]

  Did I ruffle some tail feathers again ??

Depends on how you look at things I guess .Supposedly the ethanol blended gas is less polluting in cold weather or at least they say it is .

I think it's pretty much a given fact it doesn't do as good regarding milage per gallon as unblended gasoline .Of course that data could be skewed to for all we know .

It's a known fact it causes deteriation of seals etc .That's not skewed .

Now maybe  if you had 3000 acres under cultivation in Iowa perhaps or 1500 in north west Ohio in corn you'd be all for it .Failing to realize that in spite of increased prices for corn you aren't able to realize much more profit if you figure in factors such as increased seed prices ,fertilizer or diesel fuel not to count equipment price increases .Geeze have you checked prices for farm land lately ?You'd about think it was all setting atop a gold mine .

Now Mr farmer just trot on down to the local supermarket and buy those 2 dollar a dozen eggs and 3.50 -4 buck a pound ground beef or 10 dollar a pound T-bones .All that animal feed stock is now going into high tech moon shine .

So just how well is this working ? ;)It's working pretty darn good for Monsanto ,Central Soya,Arthur Daniels Midland ,John-Deere or British petrolium though .

It seems like the rest of us are like that poor little runt piglet stuck at the end of the line on that proverbial hind teat .

[John Mc]

... And if addatives extend that shelf life, why are they not "added" to the fuel at the refinery?

The ethanol isn't added at the refinery either. It's blended at regional distribution centers, who receive it by truck or rail. Several reasons for this, among them are the short shelf life of the blended fuel, and the fact that the pipeline owners don't want the stuff flowing through their lines.

Did I ruffle some tail feathers again ??

You wouldn't be Al if you didn't do that from time-to-time. A little feather ruffling is not necessarily a bad thing... it can get some good discussion going. Fortunately, the Forestry Forum does not seem to be plagued with folks who take that ruffling too far (thanks to our fearless Admins)

[Al_Smith]

  Shall we just say the ruffling of the feathers does make for lively conversation at times .

Then  they got on this kick now the flavor of the month is natural gas that all the sudden appeared as magic out of the clear blue .It depends on which side of the fence you're on over that stuff too .

I mean you know if you have financial interests in ethanol of course you'll evangelise it .Natural gas too .What about the big ruckus in northern Ohio here of late though ? How about pollution from disposed of hydrofracking fluids they assured the general public could and would not happen .

They come back with the emotional issue that it makes us more independent of foreign  oil .Well okay use 10-15 percent less foreign oil ,use the same amount of fuel to get 10-15 percent less milage and pay the same ,actually more .

Figures don't lie but liars figure and most likely the same accountants that Ken Lay used on the Enron thing are involved in this business  too .We'll never know for sure though .They won't tell us the truth ,probabley never will .

[Ward Barnes]

  Humm .... A Chainsaw run on Natural Gas ...   

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

[Al_Smith]

  I suppose it's possible but I'm not exactly certain how so on a 2 cycle  .4 cycle you just screw on a little tank like a
BernzOmatic and have at it .

[westyswoods]

I lay no claim to being expert on this or any other subject for that matter. I do know that my fuel mixtures for any two cycles are a mid octane non ethanol fuel with a good oil mix. The other piece is I never mix more than can be used in a relative short period of time.

Ruined two saws many many many years ago before I learned the hard way.

Westy

[JohnG28]

Al, I hear you on this hydrofracking nonsense.  They're pushing this really hard in our area.  It seems like one of the worst ideas I've heard of in some time...push chemicals into the ground at pressures enough to crack bedrock.  Don't worry, it's not bad at all. It will help make us more energy independent.  Yep.  Can't wait until that is the new Love Canal in our back yard.

[Al_Smith]

Love canal was some time ago .If memory serves me correctly I believe Oxidental chemical was the liar in that case .

[JohnG28]

Quite some time ago, came out in the '70s or '80s I believe.  That was one big mess.  I don't know where this fracking will go, just hope it's not bad.  From what I understand, here in NY they can basically do this more or less unregulated. I don't know this for certain and don't need to get into politics here though. It does make me question how necessary this really is though.

[submarinesailor]

From what I understand, here in NY they can basically do this more or less unregulated.

John,

Currently in the state of NY I believe there is a complete and total ban on fracking.  Because of this almost no one is drill.  The ban was suppose to end last summer but the goveraor extended it.  More studies were needed.  I think they are currently waiting for the EPA to complete their study before NY moves forward.

Bruce

[LorenB]

Howdy Folks:

A local marina is now selling 93 octane without Ethanol to any customer, not just the boaters.  The saw seems to like it and the price per gallon is just a few cents above what the 92 E10 is selling for.

During the boating season they just about don't shut their pumps off.  Outboards don't like E10.

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

I’m glad to hear about the possibility of getting high octane, no-alcohol fuel at marinas.  That’s another source. 

I’ve been burning aviation gasoline (avgas) for years in all my off-road engines, including my chainsaws.  It was recommended to me by the guy who sold me the Husky. 

I have learned from knowledgeable pilots that avgas does not spoil the way automotive gasoline does.  This means that it will keep, both in a can and in the saw, much longer than automotive gas.  I don’t try to get it to last forever and if an engine won’t be run for a while I try to burn the fuel in the tank, or transfer the gas to a different engine. 

I tried to buy avgas at a major airport in the Cincinnati area, and they wouldn’t sell it to me unless I had an airplane for them to pump it into.  I have no idea what they thought I was going to do with it other than what I told them, but I left without the gas.  I have since found a small-town airport that doesn’t see much traffic where the management is happy to allow me to fill my fuel cans with the 100LL fuel.  That number indicates 100 octane, Low Lead.  I don’t know if it really is 100 octane, but it’s high enough.  I’m sure that “low lead” is a relative term, referring to the lead content of avgas from thirty years ago. 

If you can get it, I strongly recommend avgas.  You will avoid numerous problems.  In my area, the price is about 20% higher than automotive gas.  Don't burn it in your car; the lead will clog your catalytic converter. 

One last benefit: Avgas doesn’t stink the way automotive gas does.  It smells the way gasoline smelled fifty years ago. 

[John Mc]

I have learned from knowledgeable pilots that avgas does not spoil the way automotive gasoline does.  This means that it will keep, both in a can and in the saw, much longer than automotive gas.

It does have much longer shelf life. I've known pilots to burn fuel over a year old with no problem. I try to fly more often than that, but I've never had any problems attributable to old fuel, nor have  run into a pilot who experienced those problems - fuel contamination, yes, but "stale" fuel, no.

I have since found a small-town airport that doesn’t see much traffic where the management is happy to allow me to fill my fuel cans with the 100LL fuel.  That number indicates 100 octane, Low Lead.  I don’t know if it really is 100 octane, but it’s high enough.  I’m sure that “low lead” is a relative term, referring to the lead content of avgas from thirty years ago.

Yes, it's 100 octane. In fact, it's over 100 octane, if you measure it the same way auto fuel is measured. You are correct that the "low lead" in the name is relative. The original 100 octane avgas had much more lead. However, if I recall correctly, the spec for 100LL allows several times the amount of lead that the old leaded auto fuel did. (In more recent years, they've tended to do what they can to cut the lead to the bare minimum needed to meet the 100 octane requirement.

In my area, the price is about 20% higher than automotive gas.

You're doing a lot better than we are out here. When I last toped off a few days ago, the price of 100LL was $6 per gallon

[KB0NES]

I'm not sure if anyone else has seen (or posted) this handy reference.

http://pure-gas.org/

This site has a state by state breakdown of the stations that sell Ethanol-free gasoline. They list the available octane number also. They even provide Google Earth maps and have a new iPhone app too!

I have used both E10 and alcohol free fuel but I now use non-Ethanol only as then I don't worry about the shelf life as much.

Phil 

[arojay]

If one can get it, race fuel for snowmachines, bikes, etc. is unleaded and high octane.  It can be mixed with pump regular to get to the optimum RON for your application.

GARY C.  I had problems with my Honda 3500 watt generator when the weather got cold.  There is a small hose that, if I remember correctly, vents the crankcase fumes into the intake side of the carb.  Honda mechanic showed me to slit this hose, venting to the atmosphere.  End of problem.   

[Al_Smith]

  Let me stir the pot a little more here .

It's known fact that ethanol deteriates seals and components made of Buna-N .Fact just recently I ordered and recieved new componets to rebuild a couple of Briggs "pulsa jet " carbs because if this fact .It's a bit chilly to install them but if things hold true as they always have it will warm up one of those days .

On the brighter side of ethanol it was at one time  almost manditory to use some type of gasoline that either had deicer from the pump or to add deicer such as "ice guard " or "dry gas " .Since they made use go to blended fuels I've never had a fuel line freeze up on me .

Let me tell you  from experiance a frozen fuel line is a gigantic pain in the buttocks .I mean it isn't like you can thaw a gas line with a propane torch unless you have a death wish ya know .

[Hobnob2]

We've been running E10 93 octane for many years without any issues.  Consistently, we've left fuel in the tank for months, fuel in the carb for months, fuel in the can for months - we've been handling fuel completely wrong.  Of course, now I'll start having all sorts of fuel issues.  Knock on wood (he says, tapping on his cranium).

I'm prompted to post today because I just visited a highly respected dealer for the first time, who recommended using fuel within 2 weeks of purchase!!!  Before letting a saw sit for more than 2 weeks he also says to dump the tank, run the saw dry, even pull the choke at the last second before it dies to pull the last bit of fuel out of the carb.  He also says it's best to purchase mid-grade gas (E10 89 octane, around here) because the 93 octane gets purchased so seldom that it sits in the underground tanks at the gas station for too long.  89 is enough octane and is fresher, he says.  Makes sense to me.  I'm going to try his tips.

Safe work, all.

[rwthom279]

He also says it's best to purchase mid-grade gas (E10 89 octane, around here) because the 93 octane gets purchased so seldom that it sits in the underground tanks at the gas station for too long.

Same problem here, but our local station is small, and routine filter maintenance is not the best. Bought 5 gal of 93 and got 1½ qts of water...what a fun afternoon that was 

I know that in my Ol' Iron toys, it ALL hates e10 fuels.  But most of it was built when lead was safe to eat too    Have worked on several carbs where the E10 has festered in them to long, and the corrosive effects are horrendous.  Sometimes to a point of replacement.  Accelerator pump bores seem to suffer the worst.

I have heard good "news" about the marine grade of Sta-Bil, and am using that personally.  But I would have to say the best defense is proper storage and usage.  As with most things in life I reckon

Al_Smith put it best I believe when he referred to us little guys as the folks stuck with the "hind teat" in this fuel issue.  I won't dreadge up the politics as they have already been discussed, but I believe its all a scam too, as all my vehicles suffer from poorer fuel mileage and pith poor performance.  Heaven forbid if its got points and a carb...there is no "tune-up" that can bring 'em to their former glory when E10 is in the tank      

[petefrombearswamp]

I have repeated here many times , my Homelite Super XL12, 1973 vintage which I leave at my camp in the Adirondacks and I have left e10 fuel in it since it was the only gas available here in NYS  quite a few years ago, and the thing starts on the third or fourth pull every time.
I am heading there tomorrow afternoon for a weekend of fun, fishing  and chicken BBQ  and will try it then.
If it doesn't start as above I will post here again and eat crow.
I don't see all the fuss about ethanol.
(can I be a closet DEMOCRAT?) nope I am a registered independent.
As an aside, I took it to the local Homelite dealer in Cortland NY about 25 years ago and he looked in the cylinder which was scored and told me to run it till it dies. It still runs but not on a regular basis.

[snowstorm]

for those that like e10 try useing it in a boat with the tank vent 2' above the water line.

[petefrombearswamp]

as promised an update.
got the saw out last Friday, my son pulling the starter cord.
After 5 pulls he asked which position should the switch be in duh!! up I said.
It started the next pull and we used that weekend for some trail clearing.
What a saw!!
Snowstorm what problems do you encounter?
water absorption?

[snowstorm]

e10 dosent work to well in outboards or any boat. my boat had a 110 gal fuel tank it always had a little water in it. so i bought a $100 racor filter setup it helped. finally fixed the problem....sold the boat and bought one with a diesel motor. was talking to a lobster fisherman he had a gas motor in his 31ft boat. says it worked fine until the new gas. it ruined 2 carbs. the last one filled the bilge with gas. after that he put a diesel in the boat