Best Chain for large bucking?

[Richard Karwowski]

My first post.
I volunteered to help out a local camp cut up some fallen trees after last winter's heavy snowfall. Took my trusty 025 Stihl and upon seeing some 60" fallen black oaks decided I needed a bigger saw. Now have a Stihl 660. Have cut for hours with it and am using the chain it came with, sharpened over and over...
   The question I have is what would be the fastest cutting chain? Don't care about the smoothness of the cut, just want to make max use of my time in cutting. It's all split for firewood...

[Clam77]

Maybe .404 half-skip...

The pros would be better able to answer..

[T Welsh]

Richard Karwowski, Welcome to the forum! as for your 660. Stihl  33 RSC or RSK full comp chisel chain or Oregon 72LGX is what we run on our bars over 36". but keep the chain off the ground and out of the dirt,chisel chain will dull fast when hit with a rock or dirt and take about a half hour to sharpen a 36" or longer bar. Tim

[Al_Smith]

It's all a preference and often debated .Myself I prefer 3/8" chisel for saws under 100 cc and .404 chisel  for saws over 100 cc .

One might also take note that it's a lot easier to maintain a sharp chain by filing before it gets dull as opposed to spending a half an hour reworking one that got dull .

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum Richard Karwowski.  Your saw probably came with a "green link" anti-kickback chain.  The guys on here suggested that I use a "yellow link" chain, and I have been very pleased with the way it cuts.

[thecfarm]

MM,Would it come with a chain like that on a saw that size? I have never seen a chain like that. I saw a picture of one on here,but never at a dealer. I don't look at the small saws anyways,but thought a 660 was good size saw.
Richard welcome to the forum.

[Magicman]

I was thinking smaller saw, but he was not pleased with the cutting speed of the original chain.  A quick look should tell.

[Al_Smith]

If that thing came with semi chisel anti kick back chain ,just use it up until it's all gone then replace it .The stuff  cuts okay it's just not as fast as chisel .

On the other hand you could hang to old loop on a nail to use as a "stumper " to save the better cutting chain should the occasion arrive to cut a stump .

[Al_Smith]

Often in conversation about 36" loops the comparisson of skip,semi skp or full comp comes up .

From my perspective which is strictly northern hardwoods I've found very little difference .Now maybe on the left coast in the pine,spruce and fir trees there is .

I kinda figure they all cost about the same as far as price per driver so you'd just as well get all the cutters to begin with .

Now if you're trying to run a long bar on a smaller saw there might be a difference  but unless that 066 is a wimp it will pull it no matter what it is .

[Richard Karwowski]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses!
Think I'll just try different chains as suggested. When cutting pine seems I can do a whole tree w/o stopping to sharpen but find the black oak dulls the chain fairly quickly. Still developing a feel for when to stop and sharpen.
Thanks everyone!

[beenthere]

I sharpen at minimum every tank of fuel. Usually just needs a touchup. More often if the tip ever hits into the dirt. You will notice an immediate change in the cutting then.
If the chain doesn't drop through the log without any force, then it needs sharpening.
Over time, you will become very familiar with that change from cutting good to mediocre. But it all has to start with a sharp chain, cause there isn't much change in performance from a dull chain to a more-dull chain.

[chevytaHOE5674]

If the wood is nice and clean you can use square filed chain (Oregon CL series and I forget what Stihls square is). I have a few loops that I use on clean wood and boy does it cut, but takes some experience and a flat file to get it sharpened correctly (grinder is best). But if the wood is dirty or ever close to the ground I use round filed full or semi chisel chain.

[shelbycharger400]

i sharpen all my chisel chain with a round stone.  it dosnt cut as fast as square ground.  I cut A LOT of dirty wood, in flood plains and such.  I bring atleast 2 saws with, nothing worse than cutting then cant finish the truckload cause a dull chain.  i use a dremel, its not perfect, but i test cut before i leave the house then touch up and go.

[DebarKing]

What size bar did you buy your 660 with? i got my 362 with the 25" bar and both the bar and chain were "yellow". Im sure that also has to do with your dealer's inventory as well. The 33 RSC seems to work pretty good in any clean wood, until you saw through that one random shotgun slug

[shelbycharger400]

full chisel runs awsome until you run into a hollow log filled with dirt..

[lumberjack48]

Welcome to the Forum Richard    What I'm not understanding is not being able to tell when the chain starts getting dual. You should be able to feel emediately  when you lose the edge on the chain.
  Over 30 yrs of hand filing I've tried about every way to get the best performance out of a chain in hard wood and soft wood. How much angle, pitch, a cutter should have and how low the rakers should be. Over all these yrs i never had a chain on a grinder. When i put a new chain on it didn't come off the saw on till it had to be shortened or threw away. I've cut wood so dirtying on the landing i used a chain every day.
  When cutting hardwood you want to keep the chain speed at peak rpm, you want that 66 throwing chips 20', working the throttle just like the Monster trucks do.
  Use a Full Chisel chain, filed at 40 degree angle, 10 degree pitch, with a 5/32 file, rakers 35 Thou, 30 degree slope on rakers. When this is all done right it will cut that Oak like hot butter.
I get excited thinking about it, i wish i was there to give you a hand.

Back when i bought a new saw, the Dealer couldn't put a Chisel chain on it because of liability. He'd hand me the chisel chain and I'd have to change it.

[Al_Smith]

 FWIW those Dremels are okay if you rock a chain but IMO it's far better to just use a file unless the chain has been damaged .

For less than ten bucks you can buy an Oregon file guide which comes with a file or two plus the instructions and if you follow them you can't miss .

If you're not up to speed on filing that will get you the basics and be just as sharp as a grinder too boot .If you want to get fancy and free hand file you can catch that train after you ride this one a while .

[islandlogger]

I'd follow lumberjack48's advice...he's been there and done that and knows his stuff. I wish I could get him together with a old logger I learnt off of, they talk the same lingo and bet they would swap lies and half truths till the crack of dawn and hit it off real well...
Yeah, chain off the shelf will cut, but chain off the shelf with a bit of modification will REALLY cut!!

islandlogger

[Al_Smith]

That cut really good thing  is something you only learn after you've "been around the horn " so to speak .

[Richard Karwowski]

I want to thank everyone for their input based on experiance. Obviously I have much to learn! I use a 36" bar on the 660. The last time I was cutting there I pretty much had the bar totally buried all day in the oak. I wrote Stihl about it and they sent me a hat! Need to read up on some of the terminology to fully understand everything thats been said here!
   The wood has a sweet gum smell when cut. One log had a black ooze flowing out after I cut near the base. It was tens of thousands of black ants! Now I know where they go when it snows!
   I'll try to post a couple of pictures if I can figure it out.
   Once again thanks everyone for this novice!

[Al_Smith]

Well  a 660 really is not a tool for a novice now .Be carefull with that thing because that's a whole lot of power there .

[NCFarmboy]

Welcome to the Forum Richard    What I'm not understanding is not being able to tell when the chain starts getting dual. You should be able to feel emediately  when you lose the edge on the chain.
  Over 30 yrs of hand filing I've tried about every way to get the best performance out of a chain in hard wood and soft wood. How much angle, pitch, a cutter should have and how low the rakers should be. Over all these yrs i never had a chain on a grinder. When i put a new chain on it didn't come off the saw on till it had to be shortened or threw away. I've cut wood so dirtying on the landing i used a chain every day.
  When cutting hardwood you want to keep the chain speed at peak rpm, you want that 66 throwing chips 20', working the throttle just like the Monster trucks do.
  Use a Full Chisel chain, filed at 40 degree angle, 10 degree pitch, with a 5/32 file, rakers 35 Thou, 30 degree slope on rakers. When this is all done right it will cut that Oak like hot butter.
I get excited thinking about it, i wish i was there to give you a hand.

Back when i bought a new saw, the Dealer couldn't put a Chisel chain on it because of liability. He'd hand me the chisel chain and I'd have to change it.

Was reading this post and saw 5/32" file on I assume 3/8" chain.  Never thought about using a much smaller file.  What about the gullet?
Shep

[Al_Smith]

Some people drop down a file size when the tooth becomes about half used up .It's just a preference .

I personally take the gullet clear down to the tie strap but don't change the top angle keeping it 30 or 35 which ever the chain came with .Again preference .

It's only going to cut as deep as the raker is set it's just that a full gullet will roll a bigger chip  before it rocks up out of the cut .

[Richard Karwowski]

Agree the 660 is not the best choice for a novice. Sort of like going from a moped to a Harley. I take my time, wear 9 ply chaps, protective boots, etc. I'm not young (57) so have been around long enough to know how quickly you can get hurt.
   Have taken down some fairly large dead pines (30"+ in diameter) and I have to admit it makes me a little nervous when they start to fall. So far they have all gone over where I wanted them to but I always park my truck well out of harm's way...

[Al_Smith]

Agh 57 I remember it well .

[lumberjack48]

I use a 5/32 file on a 3/8 chisel chain right out of the box.

Take a good look at a new chisel cutter before you file it, it looks like its been filed with a smaller file then a 5/32 file.

On a new 3/8 chisel chain, when you put it on the saw, grab a 5/32 file and you'll see and feel the file fits right in the factory grind.

The only part of a chisel chain that does the cutting is the tip and top edge of the cutter.
If you file to deep you get to much hook, it will jerk and grab the wood, stop the chain, this is hard on everything and dangerous. You want to make sure theres a little bit of the file showing above the cutter when filing.
If you file to high on the cutter you get what is called a dray runner, no matter how times you sharpen, it cuts like its dull.

Once you get started right its so easy to keep sharp, a guy has to take his time to learn what to look for and get the feel of the file, then it starts to be fun.
When you look at the top edge of a cutter and you see a shinny edge, your chain is dull. You have to file until the shinny edge is gone, every stroke of the file you can watch it disappear.
One of the main things when filing by hand is don't rock the file, long slow straight strokes with the file [ don't pull the file back against the cutter]

[chevytaHOE5674]

On my 3/8 chain I use either 7/32 or 13/64 files as that is what is recommended by the manufacture and they are the right size for the chain. They don't get into the tie straps and don't take too much off the top plate.

Only way to get good at hand filing is to do it over and over. Which means that you need to cut a lot of wood  .

[Al_Smith]

Like I said it's just a preference .

[lumberjack48]

I'm sorry Al, its not a preference for me, its the one that does a better job. I used a 7/32 for 25 yrs, I'd bought my son a little John, Jonsered, it called for 5/32 file. All my files were shot, so i grabbed the 5/32 file to finish the day.

I filed with it the rest of the day, i couldn't believe the difference, my saw cut smoother and faster and i could throw an edge on in half the time. I never went back to a 7/32 file.

Chevy, step out of the box, try a 5/32 file, the thing is you have to know how to file to use one, so you shouldn't have a problem. Theres no reason to be filing all that chain when theres no need to. The 5/32 break easy so don't push to hard, and turn the file counter clockwise when your filing.

I don't think you have any idea how much wood this Ole lumberjack has cut by hand. If i need a reference i can give you many, many ph #'s to call.

[Al_Smith]

Well with due respect sir I don't question your methods I just make reference that there is more than one way to skin a cat .

Preference meaning in any case the method a certain person prefers to use .Mine doesn't happen to be a 5/32" file or a 40 degree top plate angle . Although I might add I do use a 5/32 on a certain portion of a race chain which is not  the topic so I won't go there .

[lumberjack48]

What i go by is how fast it cuts, the faster i can get it to cut the more i like it.

If you told me to use a 1/2" file, and it cut like a razor blade i would use it, what ever my preference was.

[Al_Smith]

Well yeah I can toss a race chain on and it does cut like a razor  but it just doesn't last long .

So then you have a choice 5 minutes with a 7/32 file on a 20 " loop of round chisel or an hour with three different files on a 3/8" square cut race chain .

It's a choice .I was born in '48 too by the way and have ran these noisey things since I was a teen ager .I'll just stick to my 7/32 file on a work chain I think .

Just to clarify though we have no soft woods in this area save an occasional linden or cotton wood .Any deviation from the standard factory sharpening methods really doesn't gain much in terms of speed in the oaks and hickorys ,sugar maple and dead ash trees .A 40 degree angle might cut faster but only for a short period of time .On a dead ash you wouldn't make it a tank full .

[chevytaHOE5674]

I've tried all different sized files and always come back to the 7/32 or 13/64 as they do a good job for me, and I too cut a lot of wood.

If you prefer the 5/32 then have at it.