Author Topic: Frustrated with my mill today and my lack of knowledge.( Solved hopefully) (Read 2014 times)

Don K · « **on:** January 02, 2012, 12:36:44 pm »

Well I went to saw some pine for a fella this morning and was setting up. Dropped the front outriggers, fired up the engine, hit the up switch and nada, nothing, still as a stump. I know I recently cleaned and greased the drum switch contacts but I checked again anyway. Everything else worked on the mill. Got the meter out and the wiring diagram and power is making it to most contacts and to the simpleset. WM is closed today and after piddling with it for a couple of hours, I got really frustrated, buttoned it up and pulled it home. I am sure it is something simple and when I can get some tech help get it resolved. Patience is not my best trait and I'm really frustrated at my inability to troubleshoot the problem. When my plans get altered it really throws me out off kilter.

Don

Chuck White · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2012, 01:05:14 pm »

I had a problem with the up/down function on my mill and just couldn't figure it out.

So I made a post which I can't seem to find.

As a suggestion, disconnect both wires from the up/down motor and test with a test light or meter.

When you move the drum switch lever up, you should have power on one of the wires and when you move the drum switch lever down, you should have power on the other wire.

That will tell you if your trouble is with the drum switch itself or the motor.

If the trouble is with the motor, it could be the brushes aren't making good contact with the armeture. That could be caused by a buildup of dust or tension lost in the spring.

Hope this helps you!

cypresskayaksllc · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2012, 01:15:13 pm »

I had the same sort of problem a little while ago. It turned out to be a loose plug where the wires come from the remote and plug into the sawhead.

Magicman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2012, 03:01:46 pm »

Don, always go back to the last thing that you did. I overgreased my up/down drum switch once and had a problem. Check to be sure that you have plenty of "over travel" in the contacts so that the wiping action will clear the grease and make electrical contact.

The voltage on the motor should simply reverse polarity when going up or down.

learydeere · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2012, 08:15:52 pm »

I had a issue with mine after i moved it once. The clip on the bottom of the lift chain had broke while moving it and it wouldnt move. Probably not youre issue but maybe worth checking. Good luck

MartyParsons · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2012, 08:17:50 pm »

Hello,
How can I help? Not sure if you have a Super or Standard hyd mill. Accuset 2 on the Super and Simple Set works or Accuset 2 on the standard hydraulic?
We can start with the up / down curcit breaker. Is there any messages on the screen? There are also green and red lights on the H bridge that tell you diagnostic information. Lights change when the up down drums switch is moved. Accuset 2 also has a diagnostic screen that shows you voltage at the battery and the bridge, should not be much difference in voltage.
Just a few things to check.
Hope this helps a little until tomorrow.

Marty

Magicman · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2012, 08:35:05 pm »

Marty, it should be an LT40 (not SH) with Simple Set.

kderby · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2012, 08:50:32 pm »

If it is any consolation Don, this is a good mystery for us to ponder.

Thanks for writing it up.

I have a similar mill. I am going to bet the drum switch is still the culprit. I often learn things from experiences like yours. Some of the solutions I learn on this Forum are the best kind...simple but effective! I am looking forward to your progress!

Happy New Year!

kderby

paul case · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2012, 09:42:18 pm »

It can be aggravating. Kinda expands your vocabulary don't it?
I hope you didn't rename anyones kids on the way home. I know I have had days like that when I can't seem to get anything to work right and it stresses my ''Auditory Comprehension''.

Don't let it get you down. It happens to the best of us.
If it is any consolation the head don't want to move on my mill sometimes either. Since it is all manual, the problem is usually me. PC

isawlogs · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2012, 09:56:03 pm »

First thing I would be checking like Tim said, power to the up down motor, then if there is, check the brushes in the motor, they could just be dirty but I would guess at replacing them.

Magicman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2012, 10:00:15 pm »

Quote from: paul case on January 02, 2012, 09:42:18 pm

Since it is all manual, the problem is usually me. PC

That is caused by a lack of "Ballast Compensation''.

paul case · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:00:18 am »

Quote from: Magicman on January 02, 2012, 10:00:15 pm

Quote from: paul case on January 02, 2012, 09:42:18 pm
Since it is all manual, the problem is usually me. PC

That is caused by a lack of "Ballast Compensation''.

Solved by getting the lead out?

PC

Magicman · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:12:19 am »

Na, we just moved you to the front seat.

Quote from: paul case on January 03, 2012, 09:00:18 am

Solved by getting the lead out? PC

Nope, I saw you putting the lead in.

And then, shall we say, making "adjustments".

Old pictures never lie, and they never fade away.

terrifictimbersllc · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:22:20 am »

And some are worried about excessive government surveillance!

LeeB · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:38:38 am »

Now if that ain't redneck, I don't know what is.

plowboyswr · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2012, 10:29:55 am »

Jethrow Bodine would be proud!

Don K · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2012, 02:18:24 pm »

I have not checked voltage at the motor yet. A bit tough to get at the wires and I didn't want to tackle it in my state of mind yesterday. I have just come back from cutting a load of firewood and I'm pretty calm at the moment. I will go check a few more things and then phone WM if I don't have any luck. I am leaning towards the drum switch. It does not have excessive grease buildup and contacts look clean enough. I was not getting voltage on a contact when the switch was activated in the up position. It has been in the transport position for a couple of months since my last saw job. No issues in movement last time she was motivating up and down.

Don

LeeB · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2012, 04:38:11 pm »

I suspect the brushes are stuck.

bugdust · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2012, 07:44:06 pm »

I have the same problem most every time I start up after being down for a day or two. I usually rock the switch back and forth a couple times and the head raises. I've cleaned and re-greased the drums but nothing seems to help.

Don K · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2012, 02:40:48 pm »

Fellas, I have been to the top of the mountain and have now fallen back into the valley. Frustration runs amok again.

Yesterday afternoon I called WM and got a nice gentleman on the phone named Mike. He helped me along and we determined the issue was with the 1/2 hp motor. Tried the hammer tap with switch activated. Nothing. Mike had done all he could do so after giving me the price on a new motor and some things I could try to resurrect this one he departed. No warrantry and this motor has only 131 hrs on it.

My dad came over and we tackled getting it off the mill and then started tearing it down. Pulled the 2 bolts that holds it together and there was corrosion that was hard little white specks. Pulled the armature out of the housing and there was some surface rust. Brushes looked good and no undue buildup on that end. Removed two tiny screws on the end and pulled it off the bearing. Can you say chinese puzzle? 2 little clips hold the end on the bearing. How in the %$@# was I going to get it back on. The 4 little brushes are pushed in by springs that look like George Washingtons wig. You taking about a pain to put back in. You need 8 hands and 3 helpers.

After some cogitating on how to hold the brushes back and get the clips back in, I came up with the idea to use cotton string tied to the copper wires on the brushes and wrapped around the wire connections on the back of the endplate. Finally got that end back together and reassembled the motor. Hooked some jumper cables to it from my truck battery and with some spinning of the shaft finally the motor run.

Put it back on the mill and tried it before putting the pulley back on. Worked fine. I was so happy I wouldn't have to plunk down major cash for a new motor while this one still shined like new money. Got every thing back together and run head up and down. Perfect.

Head out this morning back to the saw job and get setup and square up a cant and start to saw down through the cant. Get to the end and hit the up button to climb over the cant and nothing, zilch. I about blow a safety valve off my pressure pot. Since I am now a expert at pulling this motor I yank it off. Remove the housing and lightly sand the armature. Blow it off and wipe down the magnets in the housing. Button it up and reinstall on the mill bracket, try the switch, ah motion is beautiful, run it forward and backwards one time and bam, stops running. Has not budged since.

Have you ever cranked a head up high enough to clear the loading arms in the transport position by hand spinning the up/down pulley.

$:-\$

Needless to say a mod is in my future that will allow me to run the hydraulics from the tail of the mill. I would have given most anything for that ability this morning.

So as you can see I am deep in a gully spirit wise and guess I will call WM and see about a new motor. I am sure it is just my rotten luck as usual to get a motor that won't run 1000's of hrs. Maybe better luck with the next one. I know that that is all in running anything mechanical and stuff breaks but I wasn't ready just yet.

Don

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:26:28 pm »

Quote from: Don K on January 03, 2012, 02:18:24 pm

It has been in the transport position for a couple of months since my last saw job. No issues in movement last time she was motivating up and down.

Don

If I had to guess I would guess that the couple of months has something to do with it, Looks like your a ways from the coast, I got a good idea that all that electric stuff would cause a lot of *&^%$ over hear in the land of rusty cars and green wires, It's real fun some times on my electric / hydro snow plow, man I wish I could get one of those old belt drive plows to fit on the plow truck.

Hope you get it sorted out soon.

boman1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2012, 04:04:16 pm »

Look at having the motor rebuilt...most alternator shops can do it....I have about 3000 hrs on my mill and have rebuilt the drive motor and the up/down motor once at 90.00 a piece.Good luck.

terrifictimbersllc · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2012, 04:55:17 pm »

Wondering if you should take that motor inside your warm shop with a 12v battery and meter and do some good testing on it to make sure it is the motor. Even so then what is going on? Don't know a whole lot about motors but I would have the meter leads on the connections to the brushes and make sure there is 12V there when the motor fails to run. Then its something in the motor windings. Otherwise there could be a simpler problem.

Magicman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:00:08 pm »

I am puzzled, and am not completely satisfied with your situation. I really do not have any answers or suggestions, but something just is not adding up. No matter how long the mill has been idle, that motor should not be giving trouble, and should not have to be replaced.

I know that you probably will replace it, and then you probably will be OK, but I do not like things to happen that I do not understand. $:-\$

ladylake · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:33:02 pm »

Make sure the check the crimps on the wire end terminals, if a bit loose you moved them around which might make them work for a while. Steve

nomad · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:15:05 pm »

I agree with MagicMan and LadyLake on this one. Something just doesn't sound right. I think you're missing a minor problem that's causing a major malfunction. I'm not familiar with your system, but I'd be looking for a bad connection, broken wire, bad ground, etc. before anything else. "Ghost" problems are usually the hardest to find, but the easiest to fix.

dgdrls · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:08:20 pm »

Don,

suggestion, trace the circuit from the switch to the motor and ID the wires. Power up the system and check for 12v with a test lamp at the motor while operating the switch. Move the wire harness around while checking, this should help uncover a chaffed wire if there is one, it will also test the switch and the circuit to the motor.
Also, check for power from the source to the switch. I would not buy a motor until I was certain the circuit was fault free.

Pull off clean and re-install all grounds and get some brush style motor cleaner from an RC/Hobby store for the drive motor.

You'll find it and once you do you'll know your mill that much better!.
DGDrls

Chuck White · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:15:13 pm »

Don; Before you buy a new motor, check and see if WM has one in stock that has been refurbished!

Could save you lots of $$$.$$!

boman1 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:50:54 pm »

Easy to test the motor.... disconnect both wires from it. Now take a 12volt battery and a set of jumper cables... connect the cables to the battery....now connect one cable to one of the motor terminals and the other cable end to the other one.If motor runs.....reverse cables at battery ...it should run the other direction. You can place a volt meter on the wires that go to the motor while disconnected and work the drum switch....the polarity should switch and show + or - 12volts .If both of these test show good and it still doesnt work under a load check for a voltage drop. Good luck.

Don K · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:16:33 pm »

Typed a long post about my current test today and lost it. Ain't gonna retype it. Basically cleaned armature that brushes run on until shiny, good contact, no wires touching case. Run on direct hookup to truck battery, wouldn't run on the mill. Tap case and the heifer run, reverse polarity and no run, tap, run. Good voltage to leads. Get running and starts shuddering in my hand and dies. Talk bad and remove from mill. I am pretty sure it is not in the circuit, checks good at all points, but nagging fear in back of mind. Will be next week before I get paid and can order another motor. Hope I ain't wasting my money.

Don

Magicman · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:31:52 pm »

Just thinking. Is the up/down motor the same as the power feed motor? Maybe you could jumper the up/down leads to the power feed motor. Then when you pushed up, it would go forward or back. Push down, and it should move the carriage the opposite direction.

I would think that you could then do the same things with the power feed leads to the up/down motor.

I just hate to see you throw money at a part until you know for positive that it is defective.

r.man · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:32:28 pm »

Don another thought to try to save money is to ask at a local automotive electric shop about servicing your motor. They may or may not do that type but it can't hurt to ask. Hope your luck improves. If you are up to trying something else yourself you might check that the brush slides are clean and allowing the brushes to move freely. Could be gunked up and sticking the brushes.

Don K · « **Reply #32 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:37:09 pm »

Lynn that thought had crossed my mind. Motor looks the same and I am peeping at it out of the corner of my eye in case it wants to act up too. May try that tomorrow and rman the brushes slide freely and make good contact.

Don

Magicman · « **Reply #33 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:44:06 pm »

We gotta fix this thing.

ladylake · « **Reply #34 on:** January 05, 2012, 06:18:33 am »

For sure check that the brushes slide free, I've had to sand the sides of them a few times on DC motors. Steve

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 05, 2012, 07:47:04 am »

Prehaps theirs an open in the armature windings,wont start when it hits the dead winding.When it quits can you turn the motor slightly and try it again. Frank C.

slider · « **Reply #36 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:04:19 am »

Don i had a similar problem with a power feed motor .Pulled it apart and everything looked fine .The brushes looked almost new.The culprit turned out to be a weak brush spring.Ordered a brush kit from woodmizer and solved the problem.Hope this helps. al

Magicman · « **Reply #37 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:09:29 am »

Don, if you jumper the wires from the power feed to the up/down, be sure to crank the potentiometer all of the way around. These last few post offer some solid suggestions. We will have it fixed for you in no time.

customsawyer · « **Reply #38 on:** January 05, 2012, 09:25:26 am »

I am with Slider on this one. Had the same intermittent problem on power feed and fixed it with a new brush kit.

pineywoods · « **Reply #39 on:** January 05, 2012, 09:53:11 am »

Don, in my case, I found a corroded butt splice in the wire between the control box and the motor, it was inside the braided loom...If the problem is in fact in the motor, any good electric motor shop should be able to fix you up..

Don K · « **Reply #40 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:25:38 am »

Thanks guys for the input. Gives me some new ideas to try. Will do some more testing today. Right now going to secure a W.O. tree killed by lighting on the hunting club. Gotta cut down and skid out before the tree planters come later this month. Check back in later with more test data.

Don

Don K · « **Reply #41 on:** January 05, 2012, 06:16:36 pm »

I think I might have solved the mystery and got the motor to work. I made me 2 good leads with alligator clips on them and hooked it up direct to a battery again. As soon as I touched the post it run. It scared me a little when the post sparked and I broke the connection. Touched again and nothing. Checked the leads with the meter and showed 12.6 volts. Hooked it back up and tapped the case, nothing. I read across the wiring posts on the motor to check resistance. It read open. Muttering ensued. Took the motor back apart to check brushes again since it it showed lost contact somewhere. Brushes looked good. Springs ok. Dagnabit this thing should run.

Decided to test conductivity between brushes and armature. Guess what? All the brushes showed good contact. Scratched my head a little bit and started Einstiening in my head. Read across post, showed open. A $300 inspirational light bulb went off in my head. Remember a few posts back I mentioned some rust and corrosion in small spots when I initially tore the motor down? I removed a wiring post from the endplate that makes contact with the leads on the brushes. Basically a short carriage bolt. Saw only a small bright spot that would make contact. Took a flat file and dressed up the parts that touch the contact strip and sanded the strip too. Did the other for good measure, it was bright and shiny to start with but I did it anyway. Put them back in and wah la reading a closed circuit across the posts. I am positive this mama will run now. Hook it up to the battery and she runs like a top. Put it back on the mill and she hasn't missed a lick.

Now the mill is parked under the sawshed and the head is raised about halfway up where I usually leave it when idle. I guess being in the transport position for 2 months a few inches above a bed of sawdust did it in. Hopefully my troubles are over.

Thanks for all the suggestions, it made me think, even in my sleep. I am also glad I didn't have the money at the time the other day or I would have bought a motor for nothing. Being short on cash at times makes a man turn into a McGiver sometimes.

So next time a motor acts up remember to check the contact between the brass strips and the bolt head inside the endplate. A few seconds of sanding is worth big bucks.

Don