White Oak vs Burr Oak

[Chuck White]

Is the White Oak the same as Burr Oak?

Had friends here yesterday and the discussion came up and I was told that the Burr Oak is the same as White Oak, just a different name for the same thing.

I said that I believe the Burr Oak is a subspecies of the White Oak if anything!

What's the general consensous (sp) of the topic?

[Jeff]

A Bur Oak is a white oak, but a white oak is not a Bur Oak, unless it's a Bur Oak.

A Bur Oak is a sub-species of the Larger white oak group.

Some examples from the White Oaks would be bur oak, post oak, chinkapin oak and the swamp white oak.

Some Examples of the Red Oak group might be Northern Red Oak, Black oak, Pin oak.

[Chuck White]

That verifies exactly what I said yesterday.

Thanks for the quick response Jeff.

[John Mc]

I believe there is also a White Oak (Quercus alba) that is a sub-species of the larger White Oak group.

[Magicman]

Chuck, I included a leaf in the box of acorns that I sent you which identifies it as a White Oak.  Quercus alba L.  That is our true White Oak.

Swamp Chestnut Oak, Swamp White Oak,and Overcup Oak all have similar scaly bark and non pointy leaves.  They also all have large acorns.

[doctorb]

Check out the online pics of the white oak and the burr oak acorns.  No doubt that these are different subspecies of oak.

[ely]

most bur oak that gets quarter sawn also gets sold on the market as q-sawn white oak. several times i have read that it takes a very keen understanding of the lumber to tell the diff.

[Phorester]

They are two different species, but in the same genus, or family.  White oak family.

Bur oak;  Quercus macrocarpa
White oak; Quercus alba.

We have lots of white oak in my locality.  An extremely small amount of bur oak, found only along stream bottoms.

[SwampDonkey]

Let us not forget the western white oak we call Garry oak or Oregon oak.

Q. garryana   

The lumber in the white oak group can't be separated with certainty I don't think. In the wood ID books they don't separate them.

[Dodgy Loner]

I agree with SwampDonkey - the white oaks cannot be reliably separated by wood alone.

And not to get too technical (I am, of course, about to get too technical ), but white oak (Quercus alba) and bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa) are, in fact, distinct species, and not subspecies. What we call the "white oak group" is a section of a subgenus.

All oaks fall into the genus "Quercus" which is further divided into two subgenera "Quercus" and "Cyclobalanopsis". All North American oaks belong to the Quercus subgenus (Cyclobalanopsis comprises solely Asian species). The subgenus Quercus is further divided into five sections: Quercus, Mesobalanus, Cerris, Protobalanus, and Lobatae.

Of importance to us are primarily the sections Quercus and Lobatae, as these are respectively the two groups which we commonly refer to as the "white oaks" and the "red oaks". Also familiar, but less important, to North American foresters are the sections Protobalanus, which contains the live oaks, and Cerris, which contains the familiar Asian species, sawtooth oak (Quercus acutissima)

So, in summary, the scientific nonclementure for white oak and bur oak are:

White Oak                           Bur Oak
Genus: Quercus                   Genus: Quercus
Subgenus: Quercus              Subgenus: Quercus
Section: Quercus                  Section: Quercus
Species: alba                        Species: macrocarpus

[Kansas]

I am not a forester, but I do know some differences concerning the commercial aspects of different white oaks. Right in my area, for commercial purposes, we have bur oak mainly, and some chickapin oak.

Had a customer who used to bring in both to be cut and kiln dried. He insisted we keep them seperate. Said there were slight differences in grain and color. I couldn't tell the difference when we cut it, but then he was the one making cabinets out of it.

When it comes to veneer, a smooth barked chickapin will bring quite a bit more than a rough barked bur of equal quality. Even a smoother barked bur will bring more money than a rough barked one. Loggers who get into true white oak that is to the east of me tell me that veneer brings the most money.

When it comes to barrel staves, they demand mostly true white oak. Bur oak can be used for the top of the barrels. This is what I was told by a guy that had a stave mill in this area years ago. True or not, I don't know.

[SwampDonkey]

Kansas there are other qualities that experience can make the difference.

For instance the birches are in the same boat concerning what a board looks like. But bring me a white birch sample and a yellow birch. I can tell by weight and hardness which is the yellow. But when you consider all the birches, which one is black birch, which on is yellow, which is gray, which is white?

What if I brought you an English white oak or a garry oak, along with a white and a bur? See what I mean? If you have a choice between two species and you know your area, chances are you may separate them. The rough bark on the bur probably means some defect the buyer has experience with.

Some people are on this Baltic birch plywood kick, doesn't look any better or different than good old white or yellow birch plywood.

[Al_Smith]

It's pretty easy to tell from the bark ,acorn and leaf .
 A white oak will have a somewhat smoother bark than a burr .The burr will have a rough textured bark much like a red oak while the white oaks will be a somewhat lighter colored  bark not dark like a burr or red .

The acorns of a burr are huge and have a hairy cap .Growing in the woods tight they head for the sky just like any other oak .They can get rather large .

These were the trees they left in the middle of cleared fields a hundred years ago as shade to rest the horses . They get a big old canopy  in that case .In these parts they dot the country side still standing in the middle of an 80 acre field .Of course the horses are all gone but the nice shade on a hot summers day still remains .

[SwampDonkey]

We're talking lumber Al. 

[WDH]

There might be local differences in the white oak group as to color and grain.  However, these do not hold up over the broad range of these species.  There is no structural difference in the make-up of the wood.  That is what is meant by not being able to distinguish the species from the wood structure.  It has to do with the type and the arrangement of the various wood cells in the wood, not color or other external characteristics.

[Al_Smith]

We're talking lumber Al. 

Well lah de dah !Seems to me you'd have to have the tree first before you get the lumber and I doubt seriously  you could cut oak boards out of your precious sugar maple you like to rave about .

Then again it's unlikely oak sap would make good syrup either .

[Kansas]

We run into some things that I don't understand. For instance, cottonwood. Most of the trees are white in color, and tend to be very fuzzy when we cut them for lumber. It can be a real pain to cut, and we run heavy set, up to 30 thousands per side. Yet every once in awhile, we run into something different. The logger who started a new patch of cottonwood the other day came in and said "I hit a patch of yellow cottonwood." I knew exactly what he was talking about. Its got a slight yellow tint to the wood, the bark sometimes looks a little different. There is no fuzz. Its a great cutting log. Planes and sands well too. But there is no such thing as a yellow cottonwood in real terms, at least far as I know of.

Swampdonkey, I know what you mean about different areas. I have had loggers try to pass off and mix in black oak with northern red oak. They claim its the same tree. Its not to us. Black here is slightly darker, and you hit knots a lot faster. But one time, I had some black come in from Nebraska. Guy swore I would like it. I had dealt with him before, and he was always truthful. The bark said it was black; it cut as good and looked the same inside as a red. Different soil maybe, I don't know. Maybe being another 80 miles north made a difference too.

[ely]

good one AL

[Al_Smith]

  Well you have to be stubborn as a mule to deal with a donkey ya know . I think I fit the bill .

[SwampDonkey]

Seems to me you'd have to have the tree first before you get the lumber

Yeah, but what if I'm the sawyer and I have a pile of yellow birch lumber, but the customer says I want some black birch. Yup, got all kinds of it right over there.   

It's easy when your in the know. Like knowing you can't tell the difference.

[Magicman]

We're talking lumber Al.   

Actually the OP questioned the species/subspecies.   

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, and then we got into separating lumber. The thread took on a meandering I guess. 

[ely]

then i immediately thought of pancakes when they mentioned syrup...

[SwampDonkey]

That would be fine to.

[Al_Smith]

Well now syrup is maple .I don't think burr oak, pussywillow or pizz elm would make good syrup .

Besides that how did birch get in the mix ? Well then probabley about like maple I presume .

On the birch though and quite frankly I would have no idea as we are birchless in this area .You might see a white paper birch planted in somebodies uppity up front yard is about all .Along with a redbud or a thousand others not found outside of a nursery for a kings ransome amount of money .

Then of course come the blue spruce too which would make lousey syrup unless you like the flavor of turintine which I'd assume it would resemble .Yuck !

[SwampDonkey]

Don't cornfuse sap with resin.   In the spring, peel a strip of fir bark and lick it on the inside. Sweet as any sugary sap.

[beenthere]

Sd
Looks like you caught Al out on a limb. 

[Al_Smith]

Don't cornfuse sap with resin.   In the spring, peel a strip of fir bark and lick it on the inside. Sweet as any sugary sap.

Now let me get this straight now .Are you saying through your own admission that you are in fact a sap sucker or am I reading too much into it ?

Never fear many have tried but few succeed in putting old Al out on the proverbial limb .

[SwampDonkey]

No Al, sap licker.  I seem to recall a forum member that licks wood, avatar picture to demonstrate.

[Al_Smith]

Sounds like a splintery situation to me .

[Magicman]

Don K licks wood, but he is no Sap Licker.   

[ely]

  with cracks like magicmans yall gonna get us sent to the woodshed

[WDH]

Did I actually post in this thread? .

[SwampDonkey]

Ah, you fit right in fine.

[WDH]

Reminds me a story about an Uncle of mine.  My aunt was having a baby, and they did not make it to the hospital in time.  The baby was delivered in the back of the car.  At the Hospital, the doctor wanted to keep the mother and baby overnight for observation.  My Uncle was a real spendthrift and miser, and he asked "What for?".  The doctor said that he wanted to be sure that the baby did not have brain damage since the delivery was in the backseat of the car.  My Uncle said, "Well, that is not a problem.  He will fit right in with the rest of em."  My Uncle and Aunt had 15 children  .

Not that I am saying that anyone on this thread has brain damage.  At least not obvious brain damage  .

[SwampDonkey]

Nothing that fresh air won't cure. I mean if someone has been working too much with turpentine and BLO or something.

[WDH]

Lacquer thinner  .