Author Topic: Any Norther California Loggers On Here? (Read 832 times)

islandlogger · « **on:** December 05, 2011, 12:10:19 am »

In this business we all try to keep a step ahead, if it's thinking about work for tomorrow, next week, or security down the line a few years away. These long winter eve's are great for that, and once my little girl is put in bed and my wife gets deep into whatever book she is reading that leaves me to let my mind wander back into the woods where I guess it belongs...
At any rate, I've been looking at and contemplating the investment in one or more large plots of forested land to harvest out of. I've found several in WA that perk my interest but can tell they have been heavily gone thru already. In expanding the search I found several Tree Farm type properties in Northern Cally with astounding potential! Literally millions of board feet mature and ready for immediate harvest and literally get me to drooling and twitching and oooh and ahhhh till my wife gives me the "look"
What I'd like to know from any California loggers, espec loggers from the Humboldt county area is what is the logging scene like down there? How do restrictions and regs compare to WA State and OR State? Is it possible for a Washington resident to obtain a Timber Licence and be able to operate in and out of state?? Log Price (Siearra Pacific Mill being target) range?
Any input or info is as always appreciated...
I just got another look from my better half, I think she knows I'm scheming again

islandlogger

BaldBob · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2011, 12:48:15 am »

Although I have no direct experience with logging in Nor. Cal, my old college roommate, who I still maintain contact with has worked there for about 50 years (the last 40 or so as a forest consultant out of Eureka), and one of the foresters that worked for me was a licensed forester in Cal who had worked in Humboldt county. From the horror tales that they told about what it took to get a harvest plan approved in CA ($20K minimum just to get a plan prepared - with only about a 50/50 chance of ever getting approval of a plan that would allow you to make any money), I would steer clear of any investment in forest land there that required timber harvest in order to justify owning it.

islandlogger · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2011, 12:52:34 am »

BaldBob
Wow, is that right?? Indeed the investment would be strait up paid by immediate harvest and there fore getting permits would be first and for most.....but that doesn't sound encouraging. I had to wonder when I saw such fine timber and land in such quantity being sold off with so much merchantable timber on it...
THanks for the input, duly noted!!

islandlogger

WhiteLightning · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2011, 06:08:35 pm »

I cruised timber out there for SPI this past summer, and personally it amazes me that they can stay in business. Coming from West Virginia, where it takes about a 2 page notification form to harvest timber, to seeing what California landowners have to go through really blew my mind. A THP takes months if not years to fill out and get approved by CALFIRE. The THP's I saw while working with the foresters were seriously about 3 inches thick! I am sure Humboldt County has an even more negative view on the loggers than the areas I worked in norcal. Arcata is so liberal it makes San Fran look like a bunch of right wingers. Humboldt sure does grow some sticks, but I wouldn't expect a return on that investment for quite a while. If I were you I would be patient and keep looking in Washington and Oregon.

Clark · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2011, 06:37:23 pm »

When I was living on the west coast I heard a forester say that logging in Oregon was good. Washington was good but required a little bit more paperwork and at all costs, avoid California. The more I hear, the more it amazes me anyone can cut wood there.

Clark

islandlogger · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2011, 07:35:49 pm »

Well....this is a perfect example of why it is so great to seek input on this here forum!!

Disappointing to hear but good to know!! Thank you for the guidance, much appreciated!!

I new there was a "negative" look on loggers in Humboldt by the "locals" but, well that just goes with the territory, every body is entitled to their opinion just so long as they don't spike my d#%n trees!!
However, I would have thought that being such a timber productive/growing area that the forestry net work (Cal Fire in this case I guess) would make it a little bit easier to harvest the States natural resources. Every one has their own set of rules and regs...fair enough....but by the sounds of what it takes to just obtain a harvest permit, gimme a break....The last set of permits I got here cost a whopping south of a hundred bucks, good for two years! DNR came out, looked around for all of a half hour and checked it off on the spot and told me I could "go to work when I pleased and would I please observe the Wet Land Flagging and have a great day sir and good luck with your harvest" thank you very much, that's how I prefer it. All in all INCLUDING getting the properties management plan written and approved, permits etc took bout 3 months...
I think I'll take the advice and leave Cally for some other's. It's really to bad, that was some BEUTIFUL property I was taking a gander at 13,000 + plus acres of some NICE sticks of wood, mills near by, road net work already punched in etc....

Thanks folks!! I'll keep looking closer to home...

islandlogger

snowstorm · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2011, 08:07:49 pm »

3 months? a $100? here its the price of a stamp and fill out the form as soon as the land owner signs it your good to go

islandlogger · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2011, 08:31:23 pm »

Snowstorm
So where is "here"?
Most of that 3 months was getting the management plan written up, it's not required for harvests (unless the land is in DFL) BUT most of the land owners I cut for prefer to have one to "follow". Most properties here that I cut on are already in DFL and so have a established Management plan, for most of those I can put in for a permit, pay up to a $100 bucks and then it's just waiting for the DNR to check it off, that could take a week or a month or or or....depends on time of year, location etc....each county seems to have it's different little things, but for the most part it's all roughly the same...
I concider a $100 bucks cheap...but I like the sounds of the cost of a postage stamp and a signature better

islandlogger

Ken · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2011, 08:41:27 pm »

It sounds a lot more complicated elsewhere. On private land here it is only a matter of getting a landowner to give you the nod and you're 'good to go" as long as you follow the clean water act and environmental regulations. More often than not when the opportunity arises you get on the property as quick as possible before any minds are changed. Kind of like an old dog that will pith on a corner to mark his territory. Get in there and get a start asap!

It appears that big brother has far too much control over landowners in some areas.

Ken

terry f · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2011, 09:23:32 pm »

I grew up in Mount Shasta. I can't speak to the cost or process, but just from visiting the area I can tell you there is alot of logging going on, so it is possible.

RobbyRob · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2011, 09:24:07 pm »

In NY the commonwealth of the countryside, loggers are allowed to log state land.
That's where most of my wood comes from.

I like to buy a tri-axle load every year but this year I'm stocking up with two plus trees that fell this summer adding up to two full cords. I am set on wood and it feels amazing, NY get get a blackout in middle of winter and instead I could be warm and cooking. I feel proud, every time I look at my stacks I see energy, I feel secure. I feel I provided for the family.

BTW huge respect to guys who fell trees. They put their lives on the line every time.

snowstorm · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2011, 05:51:06 am »

Quote from: islandlogger on December 05, 2011, 08:31:23 pm

Snowstorm
So where is "here"?
Most of that 3 months was getting the management plan written up, it's not required for harvests (unless the land is in DFL) BUT most of the land owners I cut for prefer to have one to "follow". Most properties here that I cut on are already in DFL and so have a established Management plan, for most of those I can put in for a permit, pay up to a $100 bucks and then it's just waiting for the DNR to check it off, that could take a week or a month or or or....depends on time of year, location etc....each county seems to have it's different little things, but for the most part it's all roughly the same...
I concider a $100 bucks cheap...but I like the sounds of the cost of a postage stamp and a signature better

islandlogger

maine

clearcut · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:36:55 pm »

To harvest timber in California you need a Non Industrial Timber Management Plan (NTMP), Timber Harvest Plan (THP), a Modified THP, or one of several exemptions from the THP process. A Registered Professional Forester (RPF) is required to draft these. The California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection reviews these plans along with other agencies. The public is allowed to comment on these plans.

The NTMP plan is approved once. If you own less than 2,500 acres, and agree to uneven-aged management, you just need to file a Notice of Intent (NOI) to harvest timber following approval of the initial plan. This is the most expensive and time consuming plan to develop, though it lasts for the life of the ownership and can follow the property through a sale. Cost about $8,000 to over $40,000 to develop.

The THP is the most common. Consider this an Environmental Impact Report. It can take several months to over a year to be approved. Cost is in the $3,000 to $25,000 range to develop. Endangered or threatened species (T&E), steep slopes, perennial streams, and significant archeological or historical issues can dramatically raise the cost.

Exemptions are the least costly, $500 to $6,000 or so but are very limited in scope for example fire clearance around a permitted structure, or the harvest of dead and dying trees.

Operations are conducted by a Licensed Timber Operator (LTO). That license requires experience, a mandatory class, and an exam.

The details of all of this are many, confusing, and simply cannot be covered in a forum posting.

As to Humboldt county, slopes tend to be steep and unstable. Roads are challenging to build and maintain. There is a lot of precipitation. Most of the perennial streams have salmon (T&E). THPs here are expensive.

Regarding prices, the State Board of Equalization (BoE), (taxes), publishes Harvest Value Schedules every 6 months that can give you and very rough idea of stumpage prices.

If anyone wishes to buy timberland in California they should hire the best local RPF they can find to assess the property, the current prices and marketing opportunities, and the existing regulatory conditions.

jueston · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:15:59 pm »

That was an incredibly educational response, and I’m sure everyone here thanks you, but when I reached the part about the State Board of Equalization I had to stop and double check that…. California calls its tax department the State Board of Equalization? Its about time California just admits they are a socialist state and stops the facade….

islandlogger · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2011, 09:00:02 pm »

Clearcut

That was a fantastic and very informative post, thank you for putting the time and effort into it, that and other posts regarding this have givin me exactly the info and input I need. Sounds to me like Cally is a high risk, time consuming, expensive route to go play with timber.....hopefully the State will "relax" a bit and get a bit more "realistic" and work with us poor ol Timber Cutters in a manner we can face up to. I'm all for rules and regs and permit this and permit that but only TO A POINT and....well Cally for sure passed that point several times over!
My hat is off to you forestry folks who are in Cally and having to put up with this day in and day out, you got sum gumpchin thar fellas!!

Thanks again

islandlogger

JD350Cmark · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2011, 08:52:00 pm »

Quote from: clearcut on December 06, 2011, 04:36:55 pm

To harvest timber in California you need a Non Industrial Timber Management Plan (NTMP), Timber Harvest Plan (THP), a Modified THP, or one of several exemptions from the THP process. A Registered Professional Forester (RPF) is required to draft these. The California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection reviews these plans along with other agencies. The public is allowed to comment on these plans.

The NTMP plan is approved once. If you own less than 2,500 acres, and agree to uneven-aged management, you just need to file a Notice of Intent (NOI) to harvest timber following approval of the initial plan. This is the most expensive and time consuming plan to develop, though it lasts for the life of the ownership and can follow the property through a sale. Cost about $8,000 to over $40,000 to develop.

The THP is the most common. Consider this an Environmental Impact Report. It can take several months to over a year to be approved. Cost is in the $3,000 to $25,000 range to develop. Endangered or threatened species (T&E), steep slopes, perennial streams, and significant archeological or historical issues can dramatically raise the cost.

Exemptions are the least costly, $500 to $6,000 or so but are very limited in scope for example fire clearance around a permitted structure, or the harvest of dead and dying trees.

Operations are conducted by a Licensed Timber Operator (LTO). That license requires experience, a mandatory class, and an exam.

The details of all of this are many, confusing, and simply cannot be covered in a forum posting.

As to Humboldt county, slopes tend to be steep and unstable. Roads are challenging to build and maintain. There is a lot of precipitation. Most of the perennial streams have salmon (T&E). THPs here are expensive.

Regarding prices, the State Board of Equalization (BoE), (taxes), publishes Harvest Value Schedules every 6 months that can give you and very rough idea of stumpage prices.

If anyone wishes to buy timberland in California they should hire the best local RPF they can find to assess the property, the current prices and marketing opportunities, and the existing regulatory conditions.

Lonnie,

I've dealt with this from all sides wearing different hats. I'd take the above info to heart and save your money.

islandlogger · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2011, 09:16:54 pm »

Oh yeah, that was all very good info and sound advise and I for sure took note and am glad I inquired, not a nest I want to tangle with!! As for saving money? Heck, it ain't my money to start with, tis Ye Olde Banks and Investors money I be goin to "play" with

but I'm back to looking local, some nice looking tracts in Chelan County and Lewis County that I'm keeping my eye on. Still in the VERY early stages of planning this out and aproaching with caution to make sure all my stumps come out in a row and make profit as well as the loan payments etc....
I had nearly forgot your from down in that neck of the woods!!

RPF2509 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2011, 02:37:51 pm »

Clearcut hit the nail on the head. I'm a Register Professional Forester in N California and yes the process is complicated and costly. In humbolt expect to have to deal with lots of agencies as welll as the local environmental groups. If a Timberharvest plan or Non industrial Timber management plan is all ready approved for the property - that is worth a lot. If not plan on two years or more to get an approved plan. Still the big wood can pay but you need the local expertise

beenthere · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2011, 12:39:14 am »

Here is a vid of falling an old growth redwood, says in Humbolt Cty, CA

mad murdock · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2011, 12:58:22 am »

Humbolt Co. Area timber ground is producing good $$ from all the illegal canibis grows. No permit required for that activity

we do the aerial surveys in that area by helo, take pics and turn in evidence for further prosecution. It is amazing to see what people do and none of it is on land they own!

islandlogger · « **Reply #20 on:** December 15, 2011, 03:34:18 pm »

BeenThere: great vid, sure looks like good fun eh?

madmurdock: that's not the first time I was warned about illegal canibis grow ops on timber land by gorilla growers, a few folks told me if I ever looked at land down there make sure I walk it all out n look for the patches and to hire a guy to live on site in a trailer with a shot gun or two...at this point I am sixty thousand % sure I'm going to stay away from investing in any Cally land....

News:

Author Topic: Any Norther California Loggers On Here? (Read 832 times)