Author Topic: I'm still around... (pictures added) (Read 1322 times)

FarmallTom · « **on:** November 29, 2011, 01:40:08 pm »

I haven't really posted for many months but I lurk here every so often.
Today, however, I decided to speak up again with a bit of an update and also a question or 2.

Last Winter, I was in the process of upgrading my saw lineup and asked all of you for your input with that. What I got was a great deal of insight and good guidance.

I think I mentioned back then that I had purchased a nice 460 Mag to go along with my 200T and 450 Huskie. (although at the time I mistakenly called it a 445, which is what my father has)
I LOVE that 460 and use it all the time with both 20 and 25 inch bars. That old girl will eat up the Red Elm and Oak like none other.

Now then...
I recently decided to upgrade the 450. I like the size of the 450 fine but, to me, it doesn't seem very torque-y. By way of a replacement, I have purchased an MS260 which, by my calculations, should be about the same weight as Dad's 445 with the same relative bhp as the 450. I'm willing to bet, however, that the Stihl's torque will surpass that of the Huskie.
What I am wondering is this....
Although I don't yet have the 260 in my posession, what upgrades might make this good saw even better? Are there mod'ed muflers out there for the 260? How much will that help it? If I were to go for a muffler mod, would a retuning be required?
I'm not a small engine guy so I have to ask all these dumb questions...

-FT

Cut4fun · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2011, 01:51:55 pm »

No need to pay the stupid internet prices for a modded muffler you can do yourself with drill, dreme,l file, etc. Just open up holes or remove your inner cage if your saw has one. Open up exhaust outlet on cover 026260 has 3 different covers and back halves I think.
Yes re-tune carb a must. MM makes a big difference on the 026

Al_Smith · « **Reply #2 on:** November 29, 2011, 02:01:54 pm »

Oh man I don't know about that .Gee wizz the way some of them talk a reworked muffler takes the understanding of a rocket scientist and the skills of a heart surgeon to master .

Evidently the fairy godmother of chainsaws has looked favorabley on me all these years because as stupid as I am I some how with blind luck get them all to work .

Cut4fun · « **Reply #3 on:** November 29, 2011, 02:38:03 pm »

Quote from: Al_Smith on November 29, 2011, 02:01:54 pm

Oh man I don't know about that .Gee wizz the way some of them talk a reworked muffler takes the understanding of a rocket scientist and the skills of a heart surgeon to master .

No words are needed to what I was thinking there Al. Bawhahahaha

Bandmill Bandit · « **Reply #4 on:** November 29, 2011, 02:51:16 pm »

2 cycle engines are pretty simple. The breath of life is AIR and the ability of the little PUMP to move AIR efficiently. It can be fairly complex when you are working to extract "another" 2 or 3% out of an already very well tuned PUMP. For most purposes just cleaning up the Exhaust FIRST and then INTAKE flow ports, tubes, and other after thought paraphernalia attached to silence, eliminate sparks, etc. they will run pretty good.

The only thing to be really concerned about is maintaining proper back pressure from the exhaust system to ensure maximum fuel mixture flow to the combustion chamber there by maximizing combustion.

All motors are Air pumps! the better they can breath the better they preform. Intake is secondary to exhaust. No pump will take in any more than it can get rid of. This is the simple part and does wonders to help productive performance.

Once you start messing with back pressure, tune pipes/expansion chambers, port timing, schnurrle porting modifications, crank case stuffing, crankshaft vanes and balancing et ell, piston weight and piston head shape, cylinder head shape, compression ratios etc etc, you can spend a lot of money and chances are you will blow the little sucker to 7734 upside down in about 2 tanks of gas.

Its fun to do and if its a checkered flag you are looking for, worth it to your sponsor. This level of mods is complex and the only thing you gain when you venture to this level is and empty bank account and competitive performance (which can reload the bank with a good sponsorship deal). And the personal satisfaction of a very well done job when you hear it run and watch it smoke every body else competing against it.

A competition engine only needs to last to the end of the competition. Dont know of too many competitions that last much more than a week end and any serious competitor will have a few built pumps sitting in the trailer for instant replacement WHEN the one he is using blows up.

Every motor I ever raced was out of the sled and on the bench for a thorough tear down inspection and TOTAL rebuild on Monday morning to make sure it was ready for the next weekend. Lots a fun and I got paid to do it for 3 winters.

About 30% of them blew up to the point of the scrap bin deposits.

Cut4fun · « **Reply #5 on:** November 29, 2011, 03:05:48 pm »

Lost me at the right turn Clyde.

FarmallTom · « **Reply #6 on:** November 29, 2011, 04:52:47 pm »

OK - I see that maybe I need to clarify just what I am asking.
First, I have no desire to make a hotrod race saw out of it. I didn't think I said anything to imply that but... $:-\$
What I was/am really asking is if a Mod'ed exhaust will help the 260 enough to be worth the trouble and expense.
I know something about engines and the whole "airpump" analogy... However, the ones I am familiar with have 4 to 6 cylinders, run on diesel, and have an IH on the front of them.
I know, from reading, enough about some of these saw mods to know that the fuel settings and back pressures can be an issue. Also, since I have never even looked at a mod'ed exhaust for a saw like this, let alone MADE one, I prefer to leave such work to someone who knows what they are doing. I don't really want to score the piston (or the like) in my "new" saw...
I wouldn't completely rule out doing the muffler work if/when I can find someone that would be willing to tell/show me in detail just how to do so.

I realize that to most of you guys such work is old hat and you think nothing of it but not everyone has done it a hundred times, ya' know?
It'd be like me expecting you all to know what the static pump timing should be on 560 Diesel... Or what the valve clearance should be on a 450...
Some of you might know or be able to look it up but it probably isn't what you are familiar with...

I know enough to know when I don't know...!

-FT

Al_Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** November 29, 2011, 05:08:50 pm »

All you're doing with a reworked exhaust sytem is lowering the resistance on the exhaust side of the port loop cycle .On a two cycle you have to work backwards .If the exhaust can't get out the transfer of fuels can't get in .The whole system works on the differentials of pressure .It starts at atmosphere and ends in atmosphere

The only way to make power is to burn fuel .If you alter the exhaust side of the engine it does become less efficient in it's use of fuel which I suppose some might find detrimental .Think about though ,it's a puny little saw engine like maybe at best is 7.5 cubic inchs .It's not like supercharged Rolls Royce Merlin in a p-51 Mustang or something that can burn more fuel in one take off than likely a chainsaw will use in it's usefull life time .

FarmallTom · « **Reply #8 on:** November 29, 2011, 05:19:46 pm »

Thanks, Al.
I understand what you are saying and I understand WHY the exhaust mod works. I just don't know HOW it should be changed because I have never done one nor seen one done.
I also don't know squat about (correctly) setting the mixture to correctly compensate for said mod(s).
In addition, I have no way of knowing how I am affecting the aforementioned back pressures.

I think the bottom line is... I want it done right the first time.

One other concern is that although we have few saw shops within an hour or so of me, I don't know if there is any of them that I would feel confident with to tune an "altered" saw.
Most of them are shops that sell saws and do a bit of light service.

Example:

The closest Stihl dealers to me...
One is a True Value and the other one is a CaseIH dealership.
The third closest is an equipment rental place... $:-\$
None are mainline saw shops.
There is one place that MIGHT be OK... It's an actual saw shop but it's and Echo dealership...

-FT

man of stihl · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2011, 05:41:31 pm »

When you get the saw. Take a pic of the muffler and we will guide you through the process. If the 260 is like the 026, there are 2 or 3 different muffler designs. But it will be the same modification, drilling holes behind the deflector.

Cut4fun · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2011, 05:54:13 pm »

Somewhere in this thread there is a 026 muffler I did. If the pics are embedded let me know. Because if your not a member you can only see the hosted pics and not embedded ones. http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/stihl/stihl-026-pro-16/

FarmallTom · « **Reply #11 on:** November 29, 2011, 08:04:26 pm »

Quote from: man of stihl on November 29, 2011, 05:41:31 pm

When you get the saw. Take a pic of the muffler and we will guide you through the process. If the 260 is like the 026, there are 2 or 3 different muffler designs. But it will be the same modification, drilling holes behind the deflector.

Thank you, MOS.
I'll have it in a few days, hopefully. When I do, I will see about some pics and perhaps you can then give me the rundown on what we are looking at...

Quote from: Cut4fun on November 29, 2011, 05:54:13 pm

Somewhere in this thread there is a 026 muffler I did. If the pics are embedded let me know. Because if your not a member you can only see the hosted pics and not embedded ones. http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/stihl/stihl-026-pro-16/

Cut4fun,
I am not a member so I'm afraid I am out o luck there...
I may join but... I think it takes a while to get verified anyway. $:-\$

Thanks guys.

-FT

Cut4fun · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2011, 08:29:29 pm »

Your verified just sign in.

FarmallTom · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:55:15 am »

Hrm..
I did log in and took a look...
Are the 2 small pics of an open muffler the ones you were referring to?
They are a bit small for me to see much but... perhaps they will mean more when I am looking at my own as well..?

-FT

Al_Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2011, 12:43:21 pm »

On sites with "thumb nail " pics just mouse click on the picture to enlarge it .BTW many use that type of format .

Cut4fun · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2011, 01:37:47 pm »

Like Al said, click on the THUMBNAIL size pic to enlarge pic to regular size. That just shows 1 of 3 type of covers. My back half didnt have a cage to drill out or remove. There is 3 different back halves too.

w8ye · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2011, 03:26:17 pm »

The muffler mod just involves enlarging the outlet hole in the cover which amounts to removing the entire outlet recess in the muffler cover from the inside. On the 026, the outside of the cover prevents using a rattail file so it is necessary to use a burr in a grinder.

The job is not complete until you go on the outside of the cover and lift the outside shroud a little with a scrench, screwdriver, alignment bar, or something? If you are careful, this can be done to appear like it was done at the factory.

Al_Smith · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2011, 04:12:52 pm »

So it's a sealed muffler I take it ? If that's the case you can take them apart which I've done and pinch them back together . Kind of a pain in the behind to do though .

w8ye · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2011, 04:38:38 pm »

The few 026 mufflers I've seen have the typical Stihl removable cover but on the cover, the outlet has a hood that blows the exhaust towards the bar and then there is a ribbed and vented heat shield over the front cover.

There are some different designs on 026 muffler's though. There is one with the hooded outlet in the side of the muffler main body and another with slits in the side of the cover. These others generally have no screen accommodation.

Cut4fun · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2011, 05:02:32 pm »

Simple 2 piece stihl design like you are used to Al.

Al_Smith · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2011, 05:07:31 pm »

Oh well shucks that's childs play then .No need to consulate an expert on that one. Just cut everything loose inside of it and hog out the hole .Get some good ear plugs else you get the ringa ding in the earball like a majority of us have .

w8ye · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2011, 05:40:42 pm »

FarmallTom · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:10:31 pm »

Quote from: Al_Smith on November 30, 2011, 12:43:21 pm

On sites with "thumb nail " pics just mouse click on the picture to enlarge it .BTW many use that type of format .

Yeah, I am familiar with clickable thumbnails. It's just that, when clicked, these enlarge such a miniscule amount that it makes very little difference in size.
Must have been tiny pics to begin with..?

I'll have pics to try and get posted soon, I hope. I'm counting the hours...!

-FT

Cut4fun · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:26:21 pm »

It's so simple. Just pull your muffler and get fixing.

Jim H · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:14:11 pm »

When I did the muffler on my 026 I just pulled the screen and drilled holes by putting the bit through the holes in the sheild and drilling behind all the holes that the screen would cover. I put the screen back and it looks like it came that way. It's not as open as some mufflers but I didn't want excessive noise. As far as tuning, make sure your carb has a high speed adjustment. My 026 did not so I got an adjustable carb off ebay (like $50 new). Probably the safest way to set the rpm is with a tach, it takes some experience to do it by ear.

FarmallTom · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2011, 11:01:59 pm »

OK. I finally got around to snapping a few pics today.
Here is my "new" lineup...
The 200T, the MS260, and the 460 MAG...

Now then -
What about muffler mods on either the 260 or 460..? Or both??

TIA

-FT

FarmallTom · « **Reply #26 on:** December 08, 2011, 08:48:07 am »

Anyone..? $:-\$

Al_Smith · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2011, 12:16:48 pm »

You can drill them out like they look like a piece of Swiss cheese if you prefer .My method is to gut the insides ,baffles ,deflecters gone .Just leave the can and cut in a second port with a shroud .

Some hang little pipes out of them like a porcupine or put little megaphones like a minature bugle .They all work it's just a matter of personal preference I suppose .

Ed · « **Reply #28 on:** December 08, 2011, 12:55:15 pm »

On the 460 you can get a dual port front cover from a dealer, then open up the primary port to about 2x its current size. Be sure to re-adjust the carb when you are done.
This is the rear port on a factory dual port muffler, gives you an idea of how big they USED to be.

Ed

Clam77 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 08, 2011, 04:52:31 pm »

Here's a question for the guys that have done a few muffler mods, since we're on the subject...

In quite a few other threads I've seen on here, people talk of having to watch the back-pressure when they do a mod. As with any other motor, if you take the exhaust restriction away, you gain a fair amount of power - why bother with KEEPING some restriction on a saw? Or does it really even matter??

I'm assuming it has something to do with keeping the CFM rate down on the carb so it can keep up with fuel demand...??

Al_Smith · « **Reply #30 on:** December 08, 2011, 05:12:23 pm »

About 80 percent of the area of the exhaust port is pretty much the standard everybody goes by .While larger than that might very slightly improve performance as a rule it's not enough to warrent the extra amount of fuel it would be expelling because it really wouldn't be using it for power .Plus they don't idle real well with too large of a muffler exit hole (s).

Rarely and only in the case the saw is using using a carb which is right on the verge of being too small will you over run the carb .Then usually unless some internal port alteration is done rarely will that happen .

Fact being so far I've only had that happen once and I'm not so sure it's just a faulty carb rather than too small .

man of stihl · « **Reply #31 on:** December 09, 2011, 05:47:32 pm »

Quote from: FarmallTom on December 06, 2011, 11:01:59 pm

OK. I finally got around to snapping a few pics today.
Here is my "new" lineup...
The 200T, the MS260, and the 460 MAG...

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Now then -
What about muffler mods on either the 260 or 460..? Or both??

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

TIA

-FT

Take the front of your muffler off of the 260 and take a pic of the inside of that.

I'll take a pic of a muff mod that you can do for your 460.

man of stihl · « **Reply #32 on:** December 09, 2011, 06:31:46 pm »

I cant post pics!

beenthere · « **Reply #33 on:** December 09, 2011, 06:51:02 pm »

Have you read the help line?

Where is the hangup?

Al_Smith · « **Reply #34 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:04:34 pm »

Quote from: man of stihl on December 09, 2011, 06:31:46 pm

I cant post pics!

Don't feel like the lone ranger now neither can I .

man of stihl · « **Reply #35 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:15:20 pm »

It wont embed from photo bucket and the attachments dont work. I tried the insert image option also. No go.

beenthere · « **Reply #36 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:40:05 pm »

I'll let Jeff lead you to where you can find out how.

man of stihl · « **Reply #37 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:48:47 pm »

Quote from: beenthere on December 09, 2011, 07:40:05 pm

I'll let Jeff lead you to where you can find out how.

K. Thanks

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Author Topic: I'm still around... (pictures added) (Read 1322 times)