Hand cutting vs harvesters

[LoggerBlack79]

I understand that harvesters are a convenient and productive way to produce timber. But in my experience with trying to sell timber, it has been the operations that utilize processors that put us little guys out of business. They say that harvesters can do a nicer job but I learned, while producing for a sawmill in Wolverine, MI, that an experienced hand cutter can do just as nice of a job keeping his brush down as a harvester. I'm just curious as to other loggers opinions on this matter. Gimme some input fellas.

[beenthere]

LoggerBlack79

Welcome to the forum.

[Bobus2003]

Harvesters make the job much safer than a man and his saw. Yes a Man and his saw can do just as nice of a job, but a Harvester can make high production and do a nice job.. Or can do just the opposite and Be high production but make a huge mess

[Gary_C]

They say that harvesters can do a nicer job but I learned, while producing for a sawmill in Wolverine, MI, that an experienced hand cutter can do just as nice of a job keeping his brush down as a harvester.

If that was the only objective in cutting timber as you say, then you're right. But looking from the buyers (the mills) viewpoint, they cannot rely on small operators to keep a steady supply of wood coming into their woodyards. And so they do favor the large producers that can guarantee them a steady supply of wood to keep their large operations running.

And in these parts, it's not harvesters that are used by the largest producers. Most are running large feller bunchers, large grapple skidders and some type of slasher/chipper at the landing to produce many thousands of cords per week per crew while a good harvester operation in a easy cutting stand will work his tail off to produce hundreds of cords per week.

So it's really not the harvesters or their operators that are "putting us out of business." It's your choice to not produce at high enough volumes to meet the demands of the buyers.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Hand cutting produces nice sawlogs, but is very expensive to produce pulp. And with every timber harvest there is pulp to deal with.

A harvester or buncher and slasher can produce equally as nice of logs if the operator knows what he is doing and can produce the pulp much more efficiently.

[snowstorm]

my first question is...how old are you? when you get as old as some of us you will be very happy to have a harvester with heat ac no dragging a chainsaw and a winch cable through the brush. one should be willing to invest at least as much money in your equipment as the new pickup would cost to get to the woods

[SwampDonkey]

In order to drive the purchase price of wood down, the industry pushed mechanization. Pushing wood prices down forces the manual guy into some hard decisions. Sure, they said safety was a concern, and it was. But, mainly because of the liabilities. But, truth of the matter was there were more men working in the woods, at least here in New Brunswick. The main reason many mills closed was they themselves were dinosaurs and inefficient. They could get all the wood they needed and there were folks that couldn't even sell wood. The heart of the matter is that the government and industry wanted as few people to deal with as possible. There is a whole lot less friction if the cog in the wheel has a lot less contacts. If industry could use crown (public) wood exclusively they would be all that much happier. The government here has closed ranger offices every few years over the last 3 decades along with all the little roadside picnic sites. So now industry with certification has become pretty much self regulated. A private woodlot owner cannot afford that expensive equipment to harvest small volumes every so often from his 100 acre woodlot. But with 40,000 woodlot owners together, they can cut some volume to supplement crown (public land) harvests. You can blame the small producer as an individual for sure, put look at his acreage? So, what if he cuts his 100 acres with processors in a week. What about next week's supply or 10 years from now? He's either done or has to sell himself to his fellow woodlot owners for more volumes to cut. That's why it has to be the sum of all parts. It's a heck of a lot easier to cut public land when it's already decided when, where, and how much for 25 years out. You just pull into the next new road and keep cut'n. Maybe I don't want to liquidate my woods and maybe I only want to cut 100 cords. I should not be steam rolled by industry, and operate on their whims. They are just like any other processor in the country, they can have all the excuses why they can't take your product right now and stick you for it for weeks or months sitting on the yard and then whine like a baby when deliveries are down or the wood is old and dried out once it gets delivered. Having worked around forest products marketing boards, that are woodlot owners dealing with industry, I know all the angles. 

Now there is talk of having a Chief Forester again for the province, that in itself is not a new concept. My grandmother's cousin George Miller, who was from 4 miles down the road here, was chief forester for NB after WWII. Now we can lay off a few more rangers and close some more doors.

[islandlogger]

I remember being extremely offended and disgusted when I lost my first job do a cutter buncher that simply "replaced" me....swore at the time I would never work with/on and/or around one flat out.
Welllll over the years I have seen how they certainly have their applications and as cutter bunchers and processors etc evolved it put a whole new spin on the timber industry. But plain and simple a hand cutter can never be completely replaced. Steep ground and tree diameter are big factors for mechanized loggin, they just can't work very steep ground and they just can't handle some of the lovely big wood we have here in the PNW. AND as some one here mentioned, when you get older and have done your years of luggin a saw thru the slash and briers...sittin in a machine gets attractive. Now for me I'm still young and foolish enough to prefer luggin my saw around and trippin up in them thar briars but I know the day will come when my body is simply goin to tell me enough is enough and I guarantee I wont quit the woods cause I love it to much....but I will indeed be looking for a empty operators seat on whatever machine is available at the time....
Indeed hand cutting opportunities are limited, you gotta no some one who knows sombody that has a daughter with a boyfriend that heard of a guy that talked with some dude who works on some crew....that needs a cutter, or go into business for your self!
luck
islandlogger

[Ron Scott]

Hopefully there will continue to be a place for both.

[rick f]

I think here in Eastern Maine some of the guys are getting away from mechnical operations and going back to cable skidders. There just tired of working for the Banks. They have to cut hundredes of cords a week just to pay the payments and still take little home to the wife.Cable skidder prices here are going up all the time. Small lots you can get to cut fairly easy with a cable machine,land owners don't want there ground tornup. Around here landowners seam to want the land taken care of so the next crop of wood has a chance to grow, IMHO.

[SwampDonkey]

Lots of woodlot owners around here forbid large processors and forwarders on the land if they want anything left of value. Otherwise, the woodlot owner wants to liquidate with that big equipment. Lots of skidders and small forwarders with manual felling on private land around here. I thin with brush saw on one land owner and he owns hundreds of acres that he only allows skidders on. I find you get better regen with ground skidder in our forests along as you don't tramp all over, but stick to trails. And the slash left where the tree falls takes care of itself. When I thin those sites there isn't a limb left and no dead zones along the road.

[thecfarm]

LoggerBlack79,welcome to the forum.Depends on the operator in all cases. I had a guy hand cut my lot,my trees were too big for his harvester. Did a real nice job with his forwarder and grapple skidder. No great big mess or a war zone on Gordon Hill. I've seen lots that he cut with his harvester and forwarder. A real pretty job too. But I've seen some other loggers cut that I would not even let them walk on my land.  The move to harvesters were hyped up as a safer way and of course a faster way to cut wood. We have no time in our society to enjoy anything unless it is done fast. The harvester can lay down a tree and buck it to length in really any place within reach of the machine. I understand directional falling and practice it too,but sometimes it's hard not to cause some damage no matter what to a tree that you really wanted to leave. I was a little leary of the forwarder on my land,even though I've seen him use it on other jobs. I have a very steep hill to come out of my lot,really the only way to come out. No big scar mark coming down the hill,because everything was carried down the hill. When I was cutting my land for logs I would cut all my limbs into 2,3,4 feet lengths to get the brush on the ground to rot. I only have a tractor,so it's hard on equipment to run over the slash to break it down. It is too bad to see the guy with a chainsaw and one skidder get replaced with a million dollars worth of equipment. The paper companies had alot to do with all this. They kinda pushed the little guy out because the paper companies wanted volume, or in my area it seemed this way to me. And I also blame it on the land owner too, they want thier money fast,in a few weeks instead of a few months.
Swamp Donkey,I can show you a few jobs that will change your mind real quick about large processors and forwarders. Or I should say a couple loggers that use a harvester and forwarder and skidder too.I have no idea what you are calling a "large processor" The guys that I have seen cut do not tramp all over the place. In fact the guy that cut my lot,used my trails to bring the wood out.

[Ken]

I think there will always be a place for smaller operations with cable skidders or hand falling for forwarders however our wood supply basket is not always ideal for that type of harvest.  More often than not the properties we get to work on have been haggled through over the years and the best of the material has already been taken.  Therefore we have to be able to produce higher volumes of lower valued wood. 

We do still have 2 old timberjacks that we use to cut oversize and we have also used them to pull full tree from a stand if we are only harvesting a portion of it.  We then process at roadside or a landing in the bush.   We have done this on a couple of jobs now and the results are quite impressive.  It is possible to do a good job with larger machinery it just requires a little care and attention and thinking.

On properties that have not been highgraded a skidder crew can be very productive and profitable.   However those chances are few and far between in this neck of the woods.  We have run skidder crews for many years but with the downturn in the industry and the lack of good quality lots to work on we have had to invest in some more productive equipment just to stay in the game.  For me the reason to stay in the game is that I believe the industry will rebound and when it does there will be far fewer people chasing trees in the forest thus allowing those that "stuck it out" to prosper.   In addition, after dragging cable and wading snow, swatting flies and punishing my bodyfor 20+ years it was time for a break from that type of labor. 

We had 6" of wet packy snow the other day and were still able to produce a couple of trailerloads of material and went home dry.  Other years that would have probably been a missed day due to weather. 

Cheers
Ken

[SwampDonkey]

Cfarm, large processors take the tree off the stump and either bunch it like a buncher or buck and limb in the woods. Usually there is the trail for the machine, then a wide swath left on either size of wood and tops piled parallel to the trail for a grapple skidder.  This creates a dead zone up to 50 feet wide. If it has to be delimbed roadside then there is acres of dead zone 100 feet deep for raspberry, elder and pin cherry bushes to take over. A forwarder is a little better because the logs can be turned 90 degrees and make neat piles and run over the limbs with the processor and forwarder. The trail is still a dead zone, where as a skidder trail grows back quick, but not as thick as to the sides. I've thinned on hundreds of acres on crown land and those processor trails have nothing but junk shrubs in them growing. Crown is the only place I've seen pin cherry, willow and gray birch considered a crop tree. That's what your trails come back to.

[thecfarm]

I don't want to argue about what will come back in a processor trail but I do know what will come back in a forwarder trail on my land, white pine 2-3 feet tall will and have come back in my forwarder trails. Two differant ways to get the wood out. Not many operations down this way as you are talking about. Most of them are more up by your way in Maine.

[Corley5]

Were you producing for Jaroche's LoggerBlack79    Or the now defunct Goddard mill 

[SwampDonkey]

cfarm, manual felling and bucking then forwarding is different yes. Your slash is more dispersed.

[Gary_C]

Cfarm, large processors take the tree off the stump and either bunch it like a buncher or buck and limb in the woods. Usually there is the trail for the machine, then a wide swath left on either size of wood and tops piled parallel to the trail for a grapple skidder.  This creates a dead zone up to 50 feet wide. If it has to be delimbed roadside then there is acres of dead zone 100 feet deep for raspberry, elder and pin cherry bushes to take over. A forwarder is a little better because the logs can be turned 90 degrees and make neat piles and run over the limbs with the processor and forwarder. The trail is still a dead zone, where as a skidder trail grows back quick, but not as thick as to the sides.

There is nowhere around here that type of cutting is allowed. All thinnings require "processing at the stump, no whole tree skidding." In some rare cases on a thinning job, the forester will allow some whole tree skidding if the operator delimbs and tops at the stump, never along the trails and roads.

So harvesters and forwarders are the prefered method of harvesting around here. I've never heard of any landowner banning them from their woods. Except the ones that get sold the notion that horse logging is the only way. And even then the horse loggers have gone to skidding carts to avoid dragging the trees down the trails.

And the big grapple skidders are pretty much limited to the clear cuts.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't get me wrong, the regen off the trails on crown lands is protected, it's just the trails and roadside that get over taken by the weeds. Clearcutting is mostly what is done. When you have stands of hardwood that are mostly pulpwood, there isn't much for sawlog management. You find a few protected stands with potential, but far between. Dad always managed the hardwood here for the sawlog potential. And always cut the junk for firewood. Then before retirement he cashed in and replanted.

[Side loader]

Down here in the deep south hand cutting is still going on but for the most part mechanization is the name of the game. Production loggers moving 15 to 20 loads of tree length (24-30 tons) per day using Big equipment ( knuckle boom, grapple skidders and cutters).  The small loggers with 1 bob truck and a "Big Stick" loader are fast becoming a thing of the past.  Mechanization is way safer no doubt, but bigger is not always better.  I believe there will always be a nich for the small guy moving 2 to 4 loads a day at least in my market.  The reason being is urban sprawl and fragmentation of timberland which in turn leads to many smaller parcels. very few production loggers will move a 1/2 million $ worth of equipment for 15 or 20 loads.  Problem is that it can be a challenge to stay small. It's even hard to find a small grapple skidder (3 or 4 cylinder) around here manufactures like Cat and Deere don't even make a 20k # or less skidder to my knowledge. And you can stay small and make $. Low impact on the land too.

[snowstorm]

lets say you have 4 cable skidders and you need 4 men to run them cut there own hitichs. could you hire 4 guys within a weeks time? around here not likely 25 yrs ago yes

[SwampDonkey]

Around here you would have a hard time finding an operator for those heavy machines if your working on crown. They have to take a training course to run them or they would not be allowed on crown land cutting. They would also be required to have first aid and WHIMIS. You couldn't just go pick up Joe Blow's son down the road. Skidder guys, I can find a few of them around. Some of them might want to be just the skidder driver, but I can find them. None of them would live in my community though. It was that way 25 years ago to. I know most everyone here and none of them have cut much wood other than split firewood for the stove. It would not be hard to find someone that had first aid, but it likely would not be up to date recently.

[mahonda]

The lack of experienced or even willing workers has been a huge cause for the mechanization from my experiences logging here. Its hard to find anyone willing to show up and work hard all day, especially when we have to sneak up on those trees before light. I think the small guys can compete in their niche markets just due to low over head and mobilization costs.

[LoggerBlack79]

Y

Were you producing for Jaroche's LoggerBlack79    Or the now defunct Goddard mill 

I actually worked for a guy who produced for The Jaroches. A guy by the name of Herb Helsel. Good man. I would have to say, Working on Jaroche jobs was a great learning experience for me. The job always looked really nice when we were done. Are you from the wolverine area?

[LoggerBlack79]

The lack of experienced or even willing workers has been a huge cause for the mechanization from my experiences logging here. Its hard to find anyone willing to show up and work hard all day, especially when we have to sneak up on those trees before light. I think the small guys can compete in their niche markets just due to low over head and mobilization costs.

This has been a problem on almost every logging job I've been on. There aren't enough guys willing to actually work for a living. I think the the work ethic of today's generation has taken a serious dive. It's too bad, they don't know what they're missing. I have to say, almost nothing beats the rush I get when those veneer maples crash on the ground!!!

[Corley5]

Are you from the wolverine area?

Yup 

[smwwoody]

Work ethic...  What is that?  20 years ago when I was cutting by hand I han no trouble keeping 2 cable skidders busy.  Now that my 20 year old son is cutting he can't keep me busy with one cable skidder I had to hire him a helper. Now when the Fat Old Man gets off the skidder and cuts the kid can't keep up running skidder. Don't get me wrong he is a good worker but it surer isn't like it was. And in all fairness we don't have the timber like we Did then.

Woody 

[SwampDonkey]

That's the thing woody, the piece size has dropped a lot in 30 years. That is one of the number one things when your cutting by hand. A lot of the big mills these days won't take big wood even if you had it. Even aspen pulp, we had some mills here that couldn't take 26 inch aspen and one mill you needed a special over size ticket, to control the volume of the big stuff coming in. I've seen a lot of aspen almost as big as white pine come off the Tobique valley. In fact in some of the stands from fire origin, all that stood was pine and aspen, the fir all died and fell down from old age. And the white birch was dying because the death of the fir opened up the woods too much. Much safer in a machine in that mess. There had been a restart on the fir, but it was suppressed for too long and most of the advanced fir was junk with rot. I saw some of it being thinned, PCT with brush saw, after the remaining residual overstory was cut and it should have been burnt. Junk today will be junk tomorrow.

[Knute]

I would think soil compaction could be a factor to consider with the heavy machines unless used on frozen ground.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I would think soil compaction could be a factor to consider with the heavy machines unless used on frozen ground.

Except that most of the larger equipment is either tracked or 3 and 4 axle rubber tired with large float tires and even tracks over the tires. This allows the large machines to be light on their feet in the woods. I've seen fully loaded double bunk forwarders with tracks front and rear drive on top of snow that a skidder would be plowing through. 

[SwampDonkey]

I see lots of machine ruts from those machines, but on wetter ground. The forest companies seem to be getting away with cutting wetter and wetter ground on crown lands. Then they want that wet stuff thinned after. Ruts and mud sespools to sink to your knees in. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Well on wet soils just about any machine will have rutting. Got to save the wet jobs for winter work when there is good snow cover and frozen ground.

[SwampDonkey]

My ground was skidder harvested and it's not rutted. It's flat land to, mostly winter cut. But then there are lots cut during the wet weather and it will be rutted for sure. When you have a forwarder with several tons of wood on it, it leaves it's mark. On good hardwood ground a skidder won't rut, not a bit. If you run a machine up a wet gully or seepage area, yeah it will rut.

[logloper]

Whats the difference in a harvester and a feller buncher with a processor head?

[amberwood]

FB with a processor head is a harvester. Normally the feller boom set is a different configuration with a shorter reach and higher lift, verses a long reach on a dedicated harvester. Harvester head is normally dangle, Feller fixed, or with a wrist.
DTR