Just getting started

[KeithJones]

I have 80 acres in SW Missouri I'm wanting to start doing something with.  The land has been somewhat abused over the years, prior to me buying it, between being cut heavily for firewood and burned off by an arson years ago.  I had it logged shortly after buying it in January of 2000, with them taking anything 14" and larger.  A lot of the trees weren't able to be used since the fire had left some huge scars on the trees and they have since hollowed out up to around 6-8' high.  I'm wanting to develop a plan to manage it for the future, but I'm not real sure even where to start.  I have some short term goals of better wildlife habitat so I want to plant a few food plots, build some brush piles, plant windbreaks and trees such as persimmon and pawpaw.  I also want a very long term goal of developing my timber into good marketable timber that my kids and grandkids can get some use out of long after I'm gone.  If there is a way to make a little money off of it in the short term, without having to sacrifice any long term goals, I would definitely be interested in that.  Any ideas, suggestions, or your own personal success/failure stories would be appreciated.

[Radar67]

Welcome to the forum Keith. We have several foresters here who can point you in the right direction. I'm sure they will be along shortly.

I have a 20 acre plot I am slowly working on. I have started by harvesting the damaged/injured trees, spraying the Chinese privet, and release thinning around the trees I want to keep. There is a lot of work involved, but it is a lot of fun too.

Good luck with your project.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the forum.
Seek out a MO DNR forester if available and ask for help setting up a management plan (either through them or with the help of a forester in the business).  In general, prices for timber are not great but all the more reason to get started on a plan.
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/AF1013

Also, 
http://www.moforest.org/landowner/index.html

Hope this helps. Many states have a Woodland Owners Association. Here is a site for the National WOA
http://www.woodlandowners.org/each_state.aspx?which_state=25

[Autocar]

Ive always told everyone that everything that grows in a woods can make you money. You just have to have a great imagination, grape vine wreath's walking canes , hollow logs for bird houses theres nothing worthless in a woodlot. If theres a some what virgin wood lot in the area take a walk though it and get a idea what slopes grow what trees this will give you a idea on what to plant where. Good luck Bill.

[KeithJones]

Autocar: I've never thought about things that could be sold to craft people.  Tons of wild grape vines growing out there and NW Arkansas, just 30 minutes south of me has what seems like a hundred craft fairs every fall.  I've also considered trying to grow ginseng in some of the shaded valleys I have, but I figure if it was that much of a money maker, everyone would be doing it. 

beenthere: Thanks for the tips.  I've considered contacting an MDC Resource Forester, but I wasn't sure what to ask.  I have something of a plan in my head, though I'm not sure what would actually work and what is just fanciful notion. 

[WDH]

Take some pictures to show us what you have now.

[mad murdock]

Welcome to the forestry forum KeithJones. Nothing better for your posterity than leaving a well cared for piece of God's green earth for them to enjoy!  I would look for a good plant identification book specific to your region. Familiarizing yourself with all the species of plants you have on your place is time well spent. That way you can better formulate a plan to get after invasives and help develope those species you want to see do well. This will also help you determine if you have any species that are used in homeopathic or other herbal/ medicinal uses, you may be able to go after special niche markets, like ginseng, there is more than wood products that grows in a forest that may have value.....i.e. truffles, mushrooms, and many herbals/medicinals, if you can identify what you have.

[thecfarm]

KeithJones,welcome to the forum. Do you live on this land,or it is a few miles from you? It's nice to have a piece of land to enjoy.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, KeithJones.  Yes, show us some pictures, but you will also want to start an album to document your progress for your own enjoyment.  

[KeithJones]

I live on this land, which makes it even more worthwhile to improve things.  Not to sound dumb, but what exactly should I be taking pictures of? 

I have the U of Mo County Extenstion Agent coming out in a bit to do a farm visit.  I'm going to run my plan by him, but what do you guys think?

-make trails through the land to use my 4 wheeler to get equipment to the back side, and haul firewood out
-prescribed burns every 3 or 4 years
-culling out the bad stuff...This is one area I need advice on.  I want to cut down the smaller culls and use to make brush piles for rabbits and birds, and the larger stuff for firewood.  However, I don't want to cut out so much that everything turns into a thicket and I don't want to cut more firewood than I'm going to use and have it rot.  At the same time, I want to do enough that it benefits the good timber that's left.
-plant small food plots in several locations, as well as planting persimmon and pawpaw trees for food (wildlife and me).
-plant windbreaks around, probably around the food plots.  I'd like to use trees that could also be good Christmas trees, such as spruces or fraser firs.
-plant seedlings of more desirable trees around.  I have some walnut trees, but a lot of them should be culled, or left for seed trees.  It seems that most of them are too twisted up to make good veneer logs.  I'm considering planting some of them, but also shortleaf pines since that is what was here historically and pines seem to make the forest more beautiful.  However, I don't want to get carried away with them since they only have a little value for wildlife and aren't as valuable as the oaks and hickories already growing here.

Any other ideas for short term benefits would be appreciated.  I'm not all about money, but making a little extra wouldn't hurt.

I appreciate your help and ideas. 

[Magicman]

Well for example, I did not take pictures of the open pastures before I planted trees.  It would have been neat, because I have Grandsons that never saw it as open land, and I can only see it in my memory.

[hackberry jake]

I know people that plant ginseng. It takes between 5 to 12 years to harvest and if you tell many people about it, it starts disappearing. I dig gensing for the fun of it and seeing nature I've never seen. It's not easy to make money at, but it gives you exercise. Sometimes its hard to spot because I'm looking up at the beautiful trees.

[WDH]

Take pictures of your timber stands so that we can get an idea of the density, size, and species.  If you have hardwood, prescribed burning can be detrimental.

[thecfarm]

I have done some work on the woods around here. A before and after picture would of been nice. Take one now and 5 years from now and so on. Be surprised how much it changes over the years. I think your plan sounds good,but I do not know your land or your area,but whoever is coming out,copy this off so you will remember want you want done and you won't forget to tell them 1-2 things that you wanted. Glad you are living there. I only moved here about 11 years ago. I only lived about 20 minutes from here,but it was still kinda hard to do things here and just go out for a walk to enjoy the place.

[chain]

A hearty welcome to the forum Keith!  One of the best of professionals is your MDC Private Lands specialist in your area. These men and women are trained to identfy unique diversities typical of forests in your area.  Along with your Resource forester and possibly a consulting forester you can come up with a plan for the future. Diversity is the key but the diameter limit cut is usually not a good thing, many loggers wil take the best and leave the rest. Do not be afraid to clear-cut a few small areas, as soon you will be surprised at the recovery to a healthy young forest.

[hackberry jake]

I've heard people talk about getting rid of the "tall spindly trees" and got sick. In my opinion, that's what a young forest should look like. The best trees grow where they have to shoot up to find the light. Field trees are always short, limby, and have way too much taper.

[OneWithWood]

Welcome Keith 

I would echo what others have already said about getting the state forestry people involved.  Tell them what your thoughts are and they will help you craft a plan to get you there.  The two best things I ever did was to contact my district forester and join the forestry forum.  I think you and your land have a bright future ahead of you!

[KeithJones]

I appreciate the responses.  I've been on vacation for deer season and had to start back to work today, but I'll try to get some pics on here soon. 

I haven't had someone from MDC come out, though I may still do that in the next few weeks.  Talking to the extension office agent was informative.  He didn't mention cutting out tall spindly trees, just thinning out where the trees are less than about 6-8 feet apart while they're small.  He also talked about culling out anything diseased, damaged or "junk" trees, such as winged elm and blackjack.  I'm not up on completely eliminating any species other than an invasive, but fewer of those trees probably wouldn't hurt anything.  There are a few loggers in this area that log in accordance with TSI guidelines.  In fact, the reason I started to get reinterested in this was talking to one about whether or not I had any timber worth taking.  He thought it would be more detrimental to try to get it right now than the monetary gain could justify.  Like he said, if you're only taking trees 14" in diameter, you'll never have a 20" tree.  I'm cautious enough to err on the side of caution when it comes to thinning out trees.  Some, like the ones that are growing horizontal, are pretty obvious, though.

I've been trying to identify a few areas for potential food plots while I was hunting.  I have a few areas in my woods that are more brush than trees and I want to plant some bluegrass-clover-korean lespedeza plots for rabbits and deer.  If there's something I could do to help the struggling turkey population here, I would try to include that.  Unfortunately, I think that would involve the elimination of predators, both four and two legged kind.  A lot of the trees I cull I want to use for firewood and to make brush piles for rabbits and birds.  I also ordered some shortleaf pine to plant in some of the sunny spots, as well as some persimmon and pawpaw for their fruit.

Anyway, I will start a photo album soon.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts after seeing what I have.

[g_man]

I am not afraid to let quite a few diseased and damaged trees stand. As they die their slow death and then decay they are great for wildlife. First birds after insects or hunting perches and then birds or mammals seeking cavity trees and finally amphibians living under rotting logs.

Of course if timber production is a higher level goal than habitat for birds and smaller mammals you would not want to do this.

[chain]

We've all heard the old addage, "can't see the forest for the trees"...how true. One of the most important things I've learned or trained myself is to identify every species of trees and shrubs and vines in the forest[i'm still learning], but most importantly I.D. the 'crop trees' and take care of them as they were your children. We do vining and thinning and leaving at least two sides of the crown of the crop tree with room to grow. Also, we always save a few 'wildlife trees' like black gum, and any den trees not competeing with crop trees, a few hickory and post oak along the ridges are saved.

There are two good manuals of reference I use, "Shrubs and Woody Vines of Missouri" by Don Kurz and "Trees of Missouri" by Kurz, you may find these books at MDC regional nature centers.

[KeithJones]

I think I have an aerial shot in my album if everything worked right.  I can't figure out how to load a shot here.  Take a look and see what you guys think.  I haven't gotten out and taken and ground level pictures, yet.

[thecfarm]

Here it is.

 



The hard part is done. I like to go to my gallery first,than I start a reply. I click onto what ever album I want,will be a bunch of thumbnails,click onto the picture you want to post,it will get bigger. A few inches down,in green it will say,do you want to post this picture to your post,click onto it,it will ask you are you sure,click yes and you have done it. I like to hit the enter key to drop it down from the text and if I add text after the picture hit the enter key a few times again. If posting more than one picture with no text in between hit the enter key a few times for some white space. Just makes it easier to follow and view your pictures. All the above can be checked with the preview button. Don't like it,edit it some more. Where is your land?

[thecfarm]

Here's my land. Don't ask me how I did the paint. I forgot how.

 



Long Link

This is a link to explain my land.
Forgot to mention too if you go to anybody albums and do the above that I told you to,down below where it says to post the picture, is another line in green that says to search the forum for this picture click here. That's how I found the post that went with my picture.

[KeithJones]

I appreciate you posting my pic and explaining the process.

My land is in Southwest Missouri, right down in the very corner, about 6 miles N of Pineville.  I've got a lot of oaks, mostly black, white, and red, and hickories.  There's a few walnuts mixed in, plus a variety of other trees, such as black gum, cedar, dogwood, and redbud.  Ultimately, I want it to be a healthier piece of land, with good timber production (that my grandkids will probably benefit from) and healthy population of wildlife.  I'm not all about the money, plus I want to get some benefit from the land myself, even if it's just to have a good place to hunt with my kids.  I think I have a good grasp on what I want to do, but I'm always willing to listen to advice and what has worked for other people.  I'm a little afraid that I'm going to do too much and it will be 200 years before the land is right again.

[KeithJones]

I just uploaded some pics I took on a frosty Christmas morning walk.  It's not all of the land, but it's the sections that I'm probably going to start with first.  One section, the pics that are taken on the slope, I want to manage more for timber since it's going to be the most likely section for good timber sooner.  The other pics are from the edge of the yard looking into the brush.  I want to do some tree thinning in some areas, but I would like to try managing this area for rabbits and other wildlife.  Any thoughts?

[beenthere]

Load the pic you want us to see.

Once the pic is in your gallery, just click on it and scroll down below that pic to see how to paste it in your post. And you can do this by going to "modify" on your last post. It is not difficult.

[shelbycharger400]

is that funky arrow pointin to somethin hidden?
that sure is a odd boundary.
80 acres, you would definately take you a while to clean out the dead trees.  sounds and looks like you should have a nice hunting place next to that creek or river

[KeithJones]

 

  

  

  

 

Let's try this and see if it works...

Two of these, the really brushy ones are areas right beside the house, just off the yard.  I'm thinking I'd like to do some wildlife habitat for rabbits, possibly even quail, though that's a long shot around here.

The one that's on a slope isn't ready to be logged, but probably will be in a few years.  Probably just going to do a low intensity burn to kill some of the undergrowth and remove some fuel off the ground, then some thinning and culling. 

The other one won't be ready to be harvested for quite a while, but I want to do some thinning.  There's quite a few walnut trees growing there so I'm thinking maybe some brush piles and burning to promote some plants growing down low.

I'm not sure if any of these pics show anything that can help.  Basically, I just took some shots of some of the areas I want to work on first.  I know I can get carried away with my "projects" so I want to get plenty of opinions and input before I start doing anything.

[shelbycharger400]

reminds me of the lake house whereas it is 5 acres none the less,   15 years ago, we cut out a lot of underbrush,  and the trees that are on the edge of the clearing areas have grown quite a bit  more vrs the ones still in the woods left untouched. 

[WDH]

My experience is that fire is detrimental to hardwoods.  Scarring by the fire on the butts create an entry point for butt rot fungus.  Burning the areas that you want quail and rabbits is perfect as that will maintain early successional plants that rabbits and quail occur, especially the seed bearing weeds.  In the established hardwood stands, you might consider hack-n-squirt with a herbicide to remove undesirable species leaving the more desirable species.  Fire in these stands could be more harmful than helpful unless you want to get rid of the hardwood.

[KeithJones]

I have a few questions, the more I study up on TSI.  First, what tree density would be ideal for timber production?  I read on MDC's website that prior to European settlement, the density was usually around 10-60 trees per acre.  The article I was reading was for quail habitat, so the author was trying to keep the density somewhere between 50 and 120 trees.  I want to increase the quality of wildlife habitat on my land, as well as improving for timber production.  Second, I'm wanting to increase the amount of grass and other plants under the trees.  Is it appropriate to plant a seed mixture under the trees?  I had considered doing a very light prescribed burn, but there really doesn't seem to be much leaf matter on the ground in the first place, and since I have no friends who are interested in what I'm doing, getting help with a burn won't happen, so I'm probably better off using the hack and squirt method mentioned in another post.  I know fire can be detrimental, but it is used a lot by the MDC and the USFS to restore woodlands back to their original composition and increase the number of species on the forest floor.