3/8 vs .404 ... Which is better

[JustWondering]

Hello every one how is every one doing today. Well my topic says it all ... Is it worth converting a saw from 3/8 to .404 if so how hard is this process ? What are the advantages and disadvantages ? Does anyone have a preference ?

[beenthere]

Might depend on your saw and also what it is that you want to cut.

And how do you define "worth" ? 

[JustWondering]

Well I use it for bucking fire wood once in a while a tree some where on the property. But typically 5-10 cords a winter

[Reddog]

To me there is no real reason to change. The 404 takes more HP to pull because it is wider.
About the only two modern saws I can think of that may benefit from 404 are the Stihl MS880 and Husky 3120.

As far as changing from .375 to .404 the two things need are: A .404 drive hub for the saw, New bar to match the driver width and sprocket nose pitch.

[T Welsh]

JustWondering,What reddog said is dead on! Tim

[Dale Hatfield]

I agree with all said above.

[JustWondering]

So there really is no benefit to jumping to the .404 ... Well thanks for all the info I was under the impression that the .404 chain would cut faster but given the fact that it take more of the horse power to pull it does not make sense to consider that opption

[w8ye]

.404 stays sharp longer as it holds up better to dirt in the wood etc.

If you are more or less a casual firewood cutter, the difference in savings versus the cost of changing over would never pay out.

I have a 084 with a newer 30" X .404 chain and its going to stay that way. Works very nice. I bought it used like that

There's a friend with a 042 with a newer 25"  X .404 chain and his is going to stay that way. He bought it used like that

These saws do not get used but maybe 3 or 4 days a year. It would never pay out to replace the bar and chain unless the existing bar was worn out.

[HolmenTree]

From Just Wonderings avator pic it looks like you have a 056? Thats the smallest saw you want to run .404 on.
When I last ran my 066 I had 28"-.404 chisel on it and it was a good match. I used that saw for the dirty work in my tree service operation and the .404 paid off.
Yes .404 is alot more pricey then .3/8" but you get what you pay for.
No matter if its .404 Oregon, Stihl or whatever you will have alot less stretching, alot more filing life,holds a better edge, takes more punishment in dirt rocks etc.,less bar pinching with its wider cut, better in bore plunge cutting, more stable [less derailing] cutting chain with its larger drive links, makes a smooth fast cut. And it still uses the same 7/32" file as the 3/8" uses.
If your using your 80cc plus saw only a little bit during a year a few loops of .404 won't break the bank.  

[JustWondering]

But you would have to change things with the saw no ? Sprocket and or clutch ? Plus bar and chain my 045 super is mainly going to be used to buck large pieces of wood and cutting large stumps. Estimated 8- 10 cords of wood mostly red white oak and locast ooccasional hickory or cherry is it justifiable to make such a conversion I have no plans to get rid of the saw anytime soon and I could swap any parts out with my old mans 056 super. Any suggestions, thanks every one for such great input it make research enjoyable when you know the advice your getting is coming from professional individuals.

[JustWondering]

Can a 3/8 bar and chain be ran on a .404 sprocket ? Sorry for all the questions 

[Reddog]

Yes you would need to change the sprocket or drive hub depending how your saw is set up.

Can a 3/8 bar and chain be ran on a .404 sprocket ? Sorry for all the questions  

Most .404 has .063 drive links. .375 uses .050 or .058 or .063 is available. So you would need to look at your bar and see what drive link it is made for.
Then you will need to look at the bar nose, is it a solid or roller nose? those do not require a certain pitch. But a sprocket nose will require a matching pitch to the chain. If it is a sprocket nose is it a replaceable one? if it is you could buy a .404 nose and put it on.

I have run .404 on one production saw and didn't see any advantage to it. As to the stretch issue I just run Stihl chain and don't run it dull, that took care of that issue. Oregon chain seems about the worst for stretching. YMMV.

What length bar are you currently running?
What chain are you running now that you want to make it faster, Full comp, half skip, full skip?

[HolmenTree]

JW at the most you would only need the .404 loop of chain, .404rim sprocket and .404 bar tip. Unless you have a .050 bar and a solid spur sprocket clutch drum, then you would need a new .063 bar and sprocket drum to fit the .404 chain. Today only .063 .404 chain is sold, you may find some old .058 around and if your bar is .050 then spread the rails that little .008 and run it that way.
I have a roll of very rare Oregon .050- .404 AL chisel bit chain and have run some of that on my 066 with .050- 28".

Yes a sharp chain will reduce stretching but in your case JW seeing your new at this I figured keeping your chain sharp wouldn't be your strong point.
So I recommend the .404 chain a good match for durability for your 045 Super.
Make that saw almost bulletproof

[JustWondering]

Reddog I'm currently running a 24" stihl rollamatic es 3/8 bar with .050 full comp chain.
HolmenTree I have gotten very good sharpening chains sharpening 13 diffenent saws at work allows for alot of repartition.

[Reddog]

Reddog I'm currently running a 24" stihl rollamatic es 3/8 bar with .050 full comp chain.

That's a good tried and true setup for that saw.

You could try a loop of Skip chain and see what you think. I would assume it you are currently running a 7pin sprocket or hub. With skip chain you may find it is possible to go to a 8pin. That may make it cut faster, also less to sharpen.

[JustWondering]

The seven pin drum sprocket is all I would need well including a bar and chain ? That's not too bad is availability getting harder to find bar and chain for it though ?

[JohnG28]

To convert to an 8 pin all you need is a new clutch drum and drive sprocket.  The bar and chain are same unless you choose to change it.  The 8 pin will increase your chain speed.

[HolmenTree]

HolmenTree I have gotten very good sharpening chains sharpening 13 diffenent saws at work allows for alot of repartition.

Well JW I quess I answered your .404 question the best I could seeing you're an expert chain sharpener.
Just stick with the 3/8 setup that you have. If your 045 has the spur type sprocket solid to the drum I'd advise you to switch it over to a drum with the floating rim sprocket. Then in the future you only have to change the rim sprocket and not the whole drum. The rims also don't damage the chain's drive links like the spur sprockets do when the chain should derail.

Unless your running a 32" or longer bar use the full skip chain , but on your 24" just stick with the full comp chain.
You may save some time sharpening a  full skip with less cutters but your going to be sharpening it more often. A full skip might be fine for falling clean softwood in the PNW but cutting firewood on the ground will dull that full skip fast. Full comp holds a better edge then full skip.
To prove that point Windsor used to make a 3/8 chain called 50-58-63 AF "full house chain" with a cutter directly behind each other [no gaps] this chain was used for industrial cutting of soft metals, no carbide used.

Stay with the 7 tooth drive sprocket , you'll have pulling power when you need it in bigger wood.
056 Magnum will take a 8 T just fine.

[Reddog]

Holmentree what is the max rpm setting on the 045?

[HolmenTree]

Holmentree what is the max rpm setting on the 045?

9800 rpm max setting by the book. Yes I know what some folks might think with that low rpm a 8T drive sprocket would be the way to go. And yes in some cases when cutting smaller wood with that larger saw more chainspeed would be better.
But for an example my big highpowered Husqvarna 395XP came from the factory with a 7 T -3/8 rim sprocket and I'm very happy with that setup. I have the grunt when I need it.
Your chain will hold a better edge with less chainspeed too.

[Reddog]

Well I will say in oak a 20" with full comp a 28" bar with skip chain and a 8pin work well on my 046 and 441 for production felling.
So that would lead me to believe a 24" on a 045 with a 8pin and skip may be worth a try for comparison.

[HolmenTree]

Well I will say in oak a 20" with full comp a 28" bar with skip chain and a 8pin work well on my 046 and 441 for production felling.
So that would lead me to believe a 24" on a 045 with a 8pin and skip may be worth a try for comparison.

Yes that would work just fine what you're doing for production felling Reddog.
But JW has his sights on cutting up some firewood into stove length.
 Remember what I said about dulling from running skip and more chainspeed. 

[acco1840]

I run 404 on everything. It holds an edge much longer and it is way more extra chain for an extra $6. Hit a rock with a 3/8 hard enough, and it is bye bye........

[JustWondering]

Can you run a 3/8 bar and chain with a .404 rim sprocket

[Al_Smith]

. There's a friend with a 042 with a newer 25"  X .404 chain and his is going to stay that way. He bought it used like that

The 042 would pull it it just wouldn't like it .Not a bad old saw being some oddball 68 cc or whatever they are .Pretty rare I've only seen one which resides in my shed .

[Al_Smith]

Can you run a 3/8 bar and chain with a .404 rim sprocket

Of course not .You have to match the complete cutting system to what ever size you are going to run .If you're worried about the price rim sprockets only cost 4-5 bucks a pop unless you get it through Stihl ,then double that .

[Clam77]

Give your favorite dealer a call and ask how much it'd be to get everything to switch it over.  I'm going to guess from a dealer you're going to spend around $125-150 on the switch for that size saw.

For that much you could be saving for a bigger saw that'll come with it- and be properly powered for it.

[JustWondering]

Well I just bought a stihl 056 clutch drum and sprocket but it was a .404 sprocket seeing as I can't use the .404sprocket I purchased a 3/8 rip sprocket as well

[JustWondering]

Everything for 40 bucks

[Al_Smith]

Wow since the Chinese tried to buy up all the scrap steel in world the prices have really gone up on bars and chains,even flea bay which normally isn't a good deal anyway.

It's been some time since I needed any .404 but my Lawd it's twice what it was maybe 3-4 years ago . It's like 123 drivers of skip for an 084 42" bar .I might have to refinance the danged house .Something 48 cents a driver,used to be 24 cents .On the other hand on a back breaker large saw it doesn't see much action so a chain lasts a good while unless you try to cut a rock in two pieces which is why the needs for a new loop .Which I by the way did not do .

[sawguy21]

I quoted a long loop of Oregon 75J yesterday, we get very little call for it anymore.
YIKES Dealer didn't think his customer would go for it.

[Al_Smith]

Over the years they made .404 in .050,.058 and .063 .The later being about all you see today except what goes over flea bay .Fact I got one of the last short reels of .404 skip in .058 that Baileys ever sold ,gone with the wind now .

The 48" hardnose that size chain goes on takes 143 drivers or about 9 feet .Between that reel,two loops already plus two new 72 tooth loops plus the fact that long of a bar is seldom used I think I'm set for life .Unless of course I get the brilliant  idea to take an antique Mac to the west coast and pretend to be an old growth faller .The  odds of that are about as great as me hitting the lottery ,slim to none .

[lumberjack48]

I see Carlton, 25' roll of 404, 58 G  / Chisel Skip Tooth for about a $130.00

[Al_Smith]

Probaley now .Then Baileys were trying to get rid of stock  they didn't move much of and this was one item .Actually it was Greg Grande that brought to my attention they even had any left .I only had about a buck a foot in it and it was Carlton skip as a matter of fact .

You can find some .404 square chisel on flea bay which I suppose might be good if you were on the  left coast .The stuff wouldn't be much good for a midwest tree trimmer that owns said 084 though .Shucks I'd be the one filing the danged stuff especially if it got rocked which it would .I'd not like that task in the least bit .

Lawdy can you imagine knocking the burrs off of 42" of loop .Why it would take a whole case of beer and a dozen files .No thank you .

[lumberjack48]

I can get 404 in, Semi chisel, 58, 63, G
                         Chipper,        58, 63
                         Micro-cut,           63
                         Micro-cut, Ripping, 63
                         Chisel,  58, 63
                         Skip tooth, 58, 63
                         Macro Chisel, 80
                         Semi Chisel Ripping, 63

The last time i ran 404 was on a 08 Stihl, then the 08S Stihl came out, it had a 3/8 chain, it was twice the saw with the 3/8, never went back to a 404 again.

[HolmenTree]

The last time i ran 404 was on a 08 Stihl, then the 08S Stihl came out, it had a 3/8 chain, it was twice the saw with the 3/8, never went back to a 404 again.

The Stihl 08S is only 56cc in engine displacement, the older 08 before 1969 were only 48cc. Don't let size fool you the 08 was built tough , go all day at one speed, not a racehorse thats for sure. First ones came out around 1964 and still in production today on driving attachments.
I remember .404 on the old 08. Good match both tough ,long life and got the job done.

[lumberjack48]

I bought a new 08s in 1965, for a $165.
My Lumbard Lighting III was a animal compared to the 08s, but not as dependable

The 08s is the smoothest running saw i ever ran, it wasn't a will balanced saw. I think it is one of the best saws Stihl made, i left it out on the strip where i was cutting, I'd throw it in a brush pile and cover it up a few limbs so nobody could see it. It snowed about a foot one night, i had a heck of a time finding my saw, everything looked the same out in the Spruce swamp. I thought somebody stoled it, i was ranting and waving, who would take my saw. Then my brother says shut-up your saw is over here right where you left it.

[sawguy21]

The 08s was a poorly balanced saw but what a work horse. They were popular with the  local orchardists.
We sell very little .404 chain now, a few fallers with MS880's up the coast but that is about all.

[lumberjack48]

Offsite photos are not allowed. Photos must be in a Forestry Forum gallery

I thought I'd share a pic of a 08S [super]

1965 it came out with a 404 pitch chain and solid nose bar, can you manage the HP lose dragging that heavy chain over a solid nose bar.

The one i bought in 65 had a 3/8 pitch chain with a solid nose bar, the dealer must have changed it over to 3/8, this is a , you can imagine the difference in chain speed.

This is a saw anybody could buy and it would run for you, on less you fell a tree on it , ran over it or didn't mix the gas.

[Randy88]

I've got a stihl 660 and it came with 3/8 050 chain on it, after all the years and chains I've gone through we switched over the 404 063 guage chain, best thing I've ever done, there is no comparision in link size, link wear surface, or chain strength between 3/8's and 404 chain, not to mention 404 stays sharp longer and has a better ability to endure the dirt and debris problems we encounter.     Lay them side by side and compare what you get, 404 is still a better buy over 3/8's when you factor in the variables, our total cost per year to run 404 is a fraction of what the total cost was 3/8's even with cheaper to buy prices of the 3/8 chain, toss in the saved headaches and you couldn't give my 3/8's on any larger saws ever again, I'm considering switching over my one year old 460 to 404 also, yes it pulls harder and cuts slower but at the end of the day I've saved more time and headaches vs running 3/8's chain I"m thiniking it'll be worth it.   As to what you should do, make up your own mind and go with what you decide, if it were me for the price difference, I'd go to 404 and not look back, there will be 10 tell you not to do to every 1 that will, it also depends on what saw your going to buy thats bigger, if the bars and drivers fit on both saws then you have one set of wear parts to keep track of and buy and carry to the woods or have in your toolbox.    Again its your decision to make, best of luck

[Al_Smith]

I'm so sure were it I if I would spend the money to change it .What you have already will get-er-done .

As far as the .404 I only use on the antiques which some might find it hard to believe but those old luggers will actually cut faster with it than 3/8 " Now I'm talking chisel chain not chipper . Those over 100 cc like the 125 Macs and 2100 Homelite even pull long bars with a 8 tooth rim and full comp chain .Doesn't faze them a bit .48" hard nose bar ,chips coming out the back like a wood planer .

[tcrew]

Well I use it for bucking fire wood once in a while a tree some where on the property. But typically 5-10 cords a winter

,,,, At what ur cutting,the narrow 3/8 is the better way 2 go. The other guys said it best, no reason for that change to a heavier and wider kerf chain. I personally think the more narrow the kerf on a chain,the farther ahead u are at the end of the day on wasted wood in the form of saw dust. So if ur not dropping or bucking giants,then stick with the 3/8. And then there is the wear and tear on ur saw. So if it aint broke,why fix it? Cut safe out there

[tcrew]

Probaley now .Then Baileys were trying to get rid of stock  they didn't move much of and this was one item .Actually it was Greg Grande that brought to my attention they even had any left .I only had about a buck a foot in it and it was Carlton skip as a matter of fact .

You can find some .404 square chisel on flea bay which I suppose might be good if you were on the  left coast .The stuff wouldn't be much good for a midwest tree trimmer that owns said 084 though .Shucks I'd be the one filing the danged stuff especially if it got rocked which it would .I'd not like that task in the least bit .

Lawdy can you imagine knocking the burrs off of 42" of loop .Why it would take a whole case of beer and a dozen files .No thank you .

...... Well a case of beer and a dozen files sounds like a chainsaw party to me! Any one else still have them? get the boys together and get after it,then when done, grab them files and that case and call it a day.
 Another name for that,,work! But chainsaw party just sounds so much better...