Burning green conifers to destroy pine beetle habitat

[bigsnowdog]

I have a reforestation project and am involved in thinning conifers, including white pine and Scotch pine. I am advised I need to burn or chip the trees to prevent the existence of habitat for pine beetles.

Have any of you done any burning of green conifers? Are there any particular methods you found effective? I need to have the trees destroyed by next April. The trees are 30 feet tall and 10-12 inches in diameter at the base.

Note: I can't afford a chipper.

[beenthere]

Where in the midwest are you? And who advises you to burn or chip?

Rules? Guidlines?

Are they plantations?

Just curious here.

[mahonda]

Whole tree yard to a landing process for pulp or post and pole, possibly firewood. Green brush burns very well if you get it going and keep it fed.

[Ianab]

Green brush burns very well if you get it going and keep it fed.

What he said.

I've burnt green pine tops to clean up after dropping some trees. The trick is to get a good hot fire going with some drier wood, so you have a hot base of embers. Then just keep stacking or pushing the branches and tops on the fire. You will get some smoke for sure, but the resin in the pine will keep it burning, and keep that hot bed of embers going under the fire. Just building a pile and trying to light it doesn't work unless it's really dry. You need get that heat in the base of the fire, and maintain it.

It also helps if the trees have been on the ground for a week or so. The green needles seem to draw a lot of moisture out quite quickly
and it burns better.

Ian

[woodtroll]

Which pine beetle?
"Where in the midwest are you? And who advises you to burn or chip?

Rules? Guidlines?

Are they plantations?

(Like Beenthere) Just curious here." Also.

Like the advise says build up a good fire then burn the green needle branches.
A drip torch works good, or a propane weed burner.

If you have any old pitch pine stumps or snags put them underneath.

[woodtroll]

Your subject line fits exactly a thread I was going to post this am.
It has to do with prescribed burning to reduce mountain pinebeetle.
I will give it a couple of days.

[bigsnowdog]

Where in the midwest are you? And who advises you to burn or chip?

Rules? Guidlines?

Are they plantations?

Just curious here.

I am in Iowa. The state's district foresters.

[beenthere]

bigsnowdog
Thanks for the location.

Can you tell us more? Being in IA, then planted pine plantations would be likely. When were they planted and what is the size you are removing? Some pics would help. How do you plan to remove the trees? Is there room to take the removed trees to a burn pile?

This on your land, or are you contracting to do the job for a customer? Is the treatment mandated by rule or suggested by the state district forester as the management is under his control?

??

[bigsnowdog]

bigsnowdog
Thanks for the location.

Can you tell us more? Being in IA, then planted pine plantations would be likely. When were they planted and what is the size you are removing? Some pics would help. How do you plan to remove the trees? Is there room to take the removed trees to a burn pile?

This on your land, or are you contracting to do the job for a customer? Is the treatment mandated by rule or suggested by the state district forester as the management is under his control?

??

They were planted in 1994, and measure roughly 30 feet tall and 10-12 inches diameter at the base. I have some room for a burn pile. I am doing it for myself; it is my reforestation project. It is not mandated by rule, but suggested by the state forester to prevent a devastating influx of pine beetles moving from the thinned stock to the live trees. He has no control over me by law or policy. It is all my decision.

[beenthere]

bigsnowdog
That is better that you are not being put upon or forced into this. Better to do what you are wanting to do.

Now, leads me to another question.
What are you reforesting? Changing species? Intermixing hardwoods? What is the 'end' goal?

[woodtroll]

I am still curious about the pine beetle they are worried about. I know the mountain pine beetle and it's life cycle. That is why I am curious about species.
Is there a pine beetle present?

[Texas Ranger]

I am also curious about the pine beetle, which one?  Life cycle of pine (bark?) beetles this time of year would be slow to none existent.  Also, which pine?  12 inch stems seem to be in the merchantable range, no market to move them?

Like I said, just curious, we have beetles down here that behave fairly uniform, and control is only a problem in extreme conditions.

"to prevent a devastating influx of pine beetles moving from the thinned stock to the live trees".

Is this the one your concerned about?    http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/trees/beetles/pine_shoot_beetle.htm

[SwampDonkey]

Burning will also take a lot of handling. If you stack it on the fire once, you'll stack it at least once more because the fire will burn a hole in the middle and the ends of the limbs will be left behind not burnt unless handled constantly.

[WDH]

In my opinion, that is like taking a teaspoon of seawater trying to lower sea level.

[inspectorwoody]

I can't help with your question(s) bigsnowdog, but I would like to Welcome you to the FF from another Iowa member.

You'll like it here. 

[bigsnowdog]

Somehow I am not being clear. I need to thin these trees as they are too close together. I can't just cut them and leave them lay as they will be prime habitat for pine beetles for a year. The beetle problem arrives as the wood decays. The wood creates an alcohol during the decay that draws the beetles. This is, I am told, in evidence all across the state. If I do my thinning then I will attract the beetles, which will then damage my good trees when the cut trees are no longer good habitat. So, I don't get the lower the ocean comment — it is off the mark.

The cut trees need to be either chipped or burned. If I do neither, I create the beetle problem which will likely devastate my planting.

I have sent a note to my district forester to get a species name for the beetle.

[bigsnowdog]

I can't help with your question(s) bigsnowdog, but I would like to Welcome you to the FF from another Iowa member.

You'll like it here. 

Thank you!

[WDH]

I was not trying to be offensive with my ocean comment.  Thousands and thousands of acres of pine trees are thinned each day, especially in the South.  The tops and limbs are not piled and burned to prevent pine beetle attack.  To pile and burn this residue would be a massive effort, therein, the ocean comment.  However, your situation may be different and the advice that you have been given may be sound.  

I have never heard of this before as a control for pine beetles unless the trees were already attacked and you were making a salvage cut.  Even with a salvage cut, the trees are felled, but are not piled and burned.  I think that you could be wasting your time doing this piling and burning to ward off pine beetles, but maybe pine trees in Iowa have different issues that I am not aware of.  Good luck with your project.

[bigsnowdog]

I am also curious about the pine beetle, which one?  Life cycle of pine (bark?) beetles this time of year would be slow to none existent.  Also, which pine?  12 inch stems seem to be in the merchantable range, no market to move them?

Like I said, just curious, we have beetles down here that behave fairly uniform, and control is only a problem in extreme conditions.

"to prevent a devastating influx of pine beetles moving from the thinned stock to the live trees".

Is this the one your concerned about?    http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/trees/beetles/pine_shoot_beetle.htm

There is no market here for the stems. I have not yet gotten an exact species name, but will receive an answer from my district forester later in the week.

[bigsnowdog]

I was not trying to be offensive with my ocean comment.  Thousands and thousands of acres of pine trees are thinned each day, especially in the South.  The tops and limbs are not piled and burned to prevent pine beetle attack.  To pile and burn this residue would be a massive effort, therein, the ocean comment.  However, your situation may be different and the advice that you have been given may be sound.  

I have never heard of this before as a control for pine beetles unless the trees were already attacked and you were making a salvage cut.  Even with a salvage cut, the trees are felled, but are not piled and burned.  I think that you could be wasting your time doing this piling and burning to ward off pine beetles, but maybe pine trees in Iowa have different issues that I am not aware of.  Good luck with your project.

I need to get the exact species name. Understand me, this is not work I seek for enjoyment, so if I can not burn them, then that would be great. You can rest assured I will press this issue, particularly given what you described about thinning.

[WDH]

Good.  Ask a lot of questions.  Like the Texas Ranger said, the season for pine beetles is over anyway.  They are already brooding somewhere and will not get in your thinned trees at this time of year. 

If you are planting pine seedlings in newly cutover ground, there (at least down here) is a bug called a pales weavil that attacks the the slash from cut or logged trees.  If you do not allow a summer to pass after cutting before planting new seedlings, the pales weavils have been known to attack the new little planted seedlings.  However, you did not indicate that you are going to be replanting pine seedlings.

I suspect that they are not talking about pine bark beetles as we know them, but rather, some other kind of pest.  Let us know what you find out.

[bigsnowdog]

bigsnowdog
That is better that you are not being put upon or forced into this. Better to do what you are wanting to do.

Now, leads me to another question.
What are you reforesting? Changing species? Intermixing hardwoods? What is the 'end' goal?

It was cropped farm ground. I planted hardwoods and conifers. In retrospect, too many conifers for this state. This is a hardwood state. But, live and learn. The end goal is a reforested habitat, really mostly for my enjoyment and a gift to the earth, you might say.

[mahonda]

Im in eastern oregon and we have to deal with the brush here, either burn or remove. However on the west side its not as big of an issue due to the ridiculous amount of rain the brush "melts" away after a few years. I believe your wood would last awhile leaving the stand susciptible to bugs and fire from increased fuel loads.

[BaldBob]

Most likely the beetle the forester is concerned about is the Ips beetle. It is the one bark beetle that attacks pines following a population build up in green slash. That is generally not the life cycle of other bark beetles. However, although Ips can kill trees (especially if the trees are stressed by drought) it usually only causes scattered top kill in otherwise healthy trees of the size you describe. Since you are not growing the trees for timber production, this should not be a serious issue. While burning the slash is one way to prevent problems from this beetle, it is generally not worth the effort. One of the best ways to prevent Ips problems is to create your slash after the last adult flight, but while there is still time for the slash to dry out enough to be unsuitable habitat to raise a brood before the next flight of egg laying adults occurs in the spring. In most regions - other than the deep South - this would mean that any slash created between mid October and mid January would not create habitat in which these beetles could build population.

[bigsnowdog]

Most likely the beetle the forester is concerned about is the Ips beetle. It is the one bark beetle that attacks pines following a population build up in green slash. That is generally not the life cycle of other bark beetles. However, although Ips can kill trees (especially if the trees are stressed by drought) it usually only causes scattered top kill in otherwise healthy trees of the size you describe. Since you are not growing the trees for timber production, this should not be a serious issue. While burning the slash is one way to prevent problems from this beetle, it is generally not worth the effort. One of the best ways to prevent Ips problems is to create your slash after the last adult flight, but while there is still time for the slash to dry out enough to be unsuitable habitat to raise a brood before the next flight of egg laying adults occurs in the spring. In most regions - other than the deep South - this would mean that any slash created between mid October and mid January would not create habitat in which these beetles could build population.

That would certainly be great if I could do that.

[Piston]

Good luck with your project!  I'm glad your dedicated to improving your forest.  If you do end up burning the slash in burn piles, I have found that a standard cheapo craftsman hand held leaf blower works incredibly well for getting the fire as hot as you can stand. 
I have used this method every time I burn brush and almost always burn wet pine slash.  Most of the time the piles are covered in snow when I light the fire (although I realize that doesn't mean the slash isn't 'dry')
The trick is to get a small fire going first, all you need is a small campfire that is capable of making some coals, and let that burn until the coals are good and hot, then put the leaf blower to it on idle.  I clear a small area right inside the brush pile so I'm lighting my fire inside of my large brush pile, then once the fire starts to get going a little better, start giving it more gas on the leave blower and eventually you will be at full throttle with your wet wood burning better and hotter than you ever thought possible.

I've done this many times and it works better than any amount of gasoline I've ever used.  The one thing you can't really avoid is what one poster said already, is that once the middle burns out, you have to keep moving the edges back into the fire, but I think that's all part of burning and I don't consider it an extra step, not to mention I enjoy it.   

I actually bought my leaf blower for that one reason, I've never used it to blow leaves.

Good luck.

[thecfarm]

Leaf blower,good idea. I just push the pile in with my tractor.
Bigshowdog,how many acres are you talking and ABOUT how many trees will you be burning? Before my Outdoor Wood Boiler,OWB,I use to burn some white pine in a pile just about the size that you are going to burn. There would also be some hardwood limbs in there too.It would burn for 4-5 days sometimes. I would keep pushing it up with my tractor. I would have a pile of coals as big and as high as a pick up truck that would sit there and burn for 4-5 days. I would only burn when there was snow on the ground,just for this reason.This would only be a pile about 50 feet long,10 feet high,30 feet wide.How are you getting these trees out?

[woodtroll]

I am with BaldBob on this one, If it is IPS and you are cutting now there should be no problem. Around April - May when it warms up by you it may be. IPS only like fresh slash. You have enough humidity it should break down fairly quick. It seams most bugs that eat dead and down wood do not eat live wood they tend to be specialized.
Of course all this being said with out the opinion of your forester.
Good luck and thanks for trying to do the right thing in your woods.

[bigsnowdog]

Good luck with your project!  I'm glad your dedicated to improving your forest.  If you do end up burning the slash in burn piles, I have found that a standard cheapo craftsman hand held leaf blower works incredibly well for getting the fire as hot as you can stand. 
I have used this method every time I burn brush and almost always burn wet pine slash.  Most of the time the piles are covered in snow when I light the fire (although I realize that doesn't mean the slash isn't 'dry')
The trick is to get a small fire going first, all you need is a small campfire that is capable of making some coals, and let that burn until the coals are good and hot, then put the leaf blower to it on idle.  I clear a small area right inside the brush pile so I'm lighting my fire inside of my large brush pile, then once the fire starts to get going a little better, start giving it more gas on the leave blower and eventually you will be at full throttle with your wet wood burning better and hotter than you ever thought possible.

I've done this many times and it works better than any amount of gasoline I've ever used.  The one thing you can't really avoid is what one poster said already, is that once the middle burns out, you have to keep moving the edges back into the fire, but I think that's all part of burning and I don't consider it an extra step, not to mention I enjoy it.   

I actually bought my leaf blower for that one reason, I've never used it to blow leaves.

Good luck.

I take it you mean a gasoline engine driven leaf blower? Will they tolerate that kind of continuous duty cycle?

[Gee, there's another thread, who makes the best leaf blower....]

I like the snow idea.

[bigsnowdog]

Leaf blower,good idea. I just push the pile in with my tractor.
Bigshowdog,how many acres are you talking and ABOUT how many trees will you be burning? Before my Outdoor Wood Boiler,OWB,I use to burn some white pine in a pile just about the size that you are going to burn. There would also be some hardwood limbs in there too.It would burn for 4-5 days sometimes. I would keep pushing it up with my tractor. I would have a pile of coals as big and as high as a pick up truck that would sit there and burn for 4-5 days. I would only burn when there was snow on the ground,just for this reason.This would only be a pile about 50 feet long,10 feet high,30 feet wide.How are you getting these trees out?

It is a nine acre plot. Given the space I have available, the fire will likely start with 6-10 trees. I will have roughly 250 to burn.

[Piston]

I take it you mean a gasoline engine driven leaf blower? Will they tolerate that kind of continuous duty cycle?

That's exactly what I mean. 

I don't use it the whole time I'm burning, I use it to get the fire roaring (which takes a surprisingly short amount of time) and then turn it off.  Once the fire starts to burn down and I pile more wood on it, I start the blower back up again and let it rip for a few minutes, it's usually only a couple minutes before I can't stand close enough to the fire for the leaf blower to have much effect, that's when you know it's really going good 

I was thinking that if I had a lot to burn, I would try to make a long, narrow (maybe 5' wide so you could still form a good pile height wise) length of brush, and start the fire at one end and just continue with the leaf blower down the length of the pile.  Maybe it would eliminate a lot of the 'repiling' of brush? 

[Ianab]

Just anther thought, you CAN use pine as firewood. Just you need twice as much volume as good hardwood to get the same heat.

If you are going to the effort of dragging out all those thinnings it may be worth processing the bigger stuff for firewood and then just burning the tops and branches. If you are going to be handling it, may as well be for something more productive than a burn pile. The small slash will burn easy enough, just keep piling it onto the hot fire as you process each tree.

Ian

[thecfarm]

I've been burning brush piles for years. The wider,higher the better. I try to start my fires so the wind will blow into the pile.Never had money enough for a leaf blower before. Tractor does a real nice job of keeping the outside burning. Just push the outside into the middle.Tractor also does a nice job of pushing the brush in to a pile too before the big burn.

[bigsnowdog]

Just anther thought, you CAN use pine as firewood. Just you need twice as much volume as good hardwood to get the same heat.

If you are going to the effort of dragging out all those thinnings it may be worth processing the bigger stuff for firewood and then just burning the tops and branches. If you are going to be handling it, may as well be for something more productive than a burn pile. The small slash will burn easy enough, just keep piling it onto the hot fire as you process each tree.

Ian

You could not keep it for firewood because it would become beetle habitat.

[Texas Ranger]

I have only worked southern pine beetles, 5 species.  But it seems to me you need to have an identity of what beetle, or insect, is the culprit.  Treatments vary, but, for a while the control we used on the southern pine bark beetle was to cut the trees and leave in place, they only attack vertical stems, and on the ground the heat build up (summer) and dessication (summer) ruins the life cycle. 

I have never seen Ips or SPB over winter in slash. 

With out knowing specific beetle, there is no treatment we foresters could recommend.

[Ianab]

You could not keep it for firewood because it would become beetle habitat.

Not once it's split, dried and stacked in your wood shed, well away from the trees I'm assuming.

Ian

[bigsnowdog]

You could not keep it for firewood because it would become beetle habitat.

Not once it's split, dried and stacked in your wood shed, well away from the trees I'm assuming.

Ian

That would be an incorrect assumption. Also, there is zero interest in pine as firewood in the midwest.

[Ianab]

Also, there is zero interest in pine as firewood in the midwest.

This would be the main problem I guess.

The bugs that might attack dry firewood are not the same ones that are going after live trees. But, if no one wants to burn it, then it's not worth collecting.

Ian

[beenthere]

bigsnowdog
Your replys leave some puzzlement as to what to recommend, as you seem to have answers for most suggestions.
I did see where you posted a while back about this plantation but then seemed to let it drop.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,26959.msg386149.html#msg386149

Now you have a State District Forester advising you, and to me it sounds like he/she is a bit overzealous with a recommendation to burn or chip over a bug. Maybe new on the job (as often these district foresters are pretty fresh out of school and put out in the field) and only can follow some book learning. I'm wondering if this is a CRP field.
I have a similar plantation of mixed hardwoods and softwoods. The white pine and Norway spruce are getting too big and I've been thinning them. Drag them off to a brush pile as I dig them out to be rid of the stumps. I am promoting the red oak for the future.

[SwampDonkey]

I think there is some confusion of sorts over which bugs you are trying to control. If it's the pines mentioned in the other thread beenthere suggests, then the main menace in your pine is pine weevils. By opening those pines up to more light your inviting the weevils to dinner. White pine can take shade far better than most pines and it is recommended to interplant hardwood to offer partial shading. Maybe you have forgotten why you planted the site as you did (maybe by luck you designed it that way) or someone else did for the older stock. It seems however after pole stage the white pine is less susceptible and also needs release to remain healthy. Burning of slash will not protect the pines from weevils. They winter in the duff layer of the soil, not in wood. Generally, the only other problem is blister rust fungus in white pine and again burning has no effect. The spores on pine can not infect a neighboring pine, they have to come off a ribies (currants, gooseberries) plant.

Mountain pine beetle is a beetle that will attach western white pine, and Scots pine in particular is highly susceptible to attack. However, your not in the natural range of mountain pine beetle.

Don't know what you have, but highly skeptical that burning harvest debris is going to be effective.

[Texas Ranger]

Agreed

[bigsnowdog]

bigsnowdog
Your replys leave some puzzlement as to what to recommend, as you seem to have answers for most suggestions.
I did see where you posted a while back about this plantation but then seemed to let it drop.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,26959.msg386149.html#msg386149

Now you have a State District Forester advising you, and to me it sounds like he/she is a bit overzealous with a recommendation to burn or chip over a bug. Maybe new on the job (as often these district foresters are pretty fresh out of school and put out in the field) and only can follow some book learning. I'm wondering if this is a CRP field.
I have a similar plantation of mixed hardwoods and softwoods. The white pine and Norway spruce are getting too big and I've been thinning them. Drag them off to a brush pile as I dig them out to be rid of the stumps. I am promoting the red oak for the future.

He has been on the job for 15-20 years, and no, it is not CRP.

[WDH]

I worked for a very large forest products company.  The company owns 4.3 million acres of timberland in the South.  Every day there were some 250 to 300 logging crews cutting pine timber.  We never piled and burned the slash.  I am sure that we lost a few trees to Ips.  However, even if we did not cut timber we would lose a few trees to Ips. 

[bigsnowdog]

I think there is some confusion of sorts over which bugs you are trying to control. If it's the pines mentioned in the other thread beenthere suggests, then the main menace in your pine is pine weevils. By opening those pines up to more light your inviting the weevils to dinner. White pine can take shade far better than most pines and it is recommended to interplant hardwood to offer partial shading. Maybe you have forgotten why you planted the site as you did (maybe by luck you designed it that way) or someone else did for the older stock. It seems however after pole stage the white pine is less susceptible and also needs release to remain healthy. Burning of slash will not protect the pines from weevils. They winter in the duff layer of the soil, not in wood. Generally, the only other problem is blister rust fungus in white pine and again burning has no effect. The spores on pine can not infect a neighboring pine, they have to come off a ribies (currants, gooseberries) plant.

Mountain pine beetle is a beetle that will attach western white pine, and Scots pine in particular is highly susceptible to attack. However, your not in the natural range of mountain pine beetle.

Don't know what you have, but highly skeptical that burning harvest debris is going to be effective.

I have not yet gotten the identity of the beetle species, so all this speculation is just that — speculation. Until I get the species, until I get new information based on documented evidence about the species yet to be identified, I am compelled to accept my forester's recommendations.

The burning I am describing is not just what you term slash. It is burning of the entire felled trees. It is not a harvest with debris, it is a thinning of entire trees, the burning of entire trees.

I posted this pretty early in the thread, but it seems it may be helpful to post it again:

I need to thin these trees as they are too close together. I can't just cut them and leave them lay as they will be prime habitat for pine beetles for a year. The beetle problem arrives as the wood decays. The wood creates an alcohol during the decay that draws the beetles. This is, I am told, in evidence all across the state. If I do my thinning then I will attract the beetles, which will then damage my good trees when the cut trees are no longer good habitat.

The cut trees need to be either chipped or burned. If I do neither, I create the beetle problem which will likely devastate my planting.

I have sent a note to my district forester to get a species name for the beetle.

[SwampDonkey]

It's all debris when you have to dispose of it or let rot. It's only logs, pulp and firewood when it's used as such.

[g_man]

Could it be Sawyers that he is concerned with ?

[SwampDonkey]

They won't attack healthy live trees. Although some grubs will winter in the down wood,  they are no threat to standing live timber to speak of. The threat from the sawyers comes from logs laying with bark on. But if your not using the logs, then that negates the worries.

[g_man]

BigSnowDog I am interested in your thinking in terms of the need you feel to thin your softwood if you are not interested in timber production. I am not a forester nor a biologist but one of the top goals on my land is improving wildlife habitat so I am trying to learn here. It seems if you have open hardwood with a good herbacious layer and promote any mast producers you have, then good thick strips of softwood will add a diversity of habitat and some winter protection for some birds and mammals. I would think that the softwood would self thin along the way and thus offer another element of habitat diversity.

So I am just curious as to what your goals are. Are you targeting a specific species you which to attract? Are you trying to make to woods look better. Or would you really like some timber as well as habitat.

On my place I consider myself as just another part of nature. If I do something that doesn't turn out the way I wanted I try not to get to upset. I just consider it another random act of nature that has harmed some species and helped others. If your pine should get plagued with bugs and all die they will be good fertilizer for the next species.

Just my way of thinking to make my woods more enjoyable and less stressful.

Good luck.

[bigsnowdog]

BigSnowDog I am interested in your thinking in terms of the need you feel to thin your softwood if you are not interested in timber production. I am not a forester nor a biologist but one of the top goals on my land is improving wildlife habitat so I am trying to learn here. It seems if you have open hardwood with a good herbacious layer and promote any mast producers you have, then good thick strips of softwood will add a diversity of habitat and some winter protection for some birds and mammals. I would think that the softwood would self thin along the way and thus offer another element of habitat diversity.

So I am just curious as to what your goals are. Are you targeting a specific species you which to attract? Are you trying to make to woods look better. Or would you really like some timber as well as habitat.

On my place I consider myself as just another part of nature. If I do something that doesn't turn out the way I wanted I try not to get to upset. I just consider it another random act of nature that has harmed some species and helped others. If your pine should get plagued with bugs and all die they will be good fertilizer for the next species.

Just my way of thinking to make my woods more enjoyable and less stressful.

Good luck.

I wanted a mix. A mix of trees, a mix of environments, and whatever wildlife would come. I am not so interested in saw logs, partly because I will not live long enough to sell logs. It’s all my gift to the earth.

Leaving conifers permanently as hardwood trainers has its good and bad points. It forces the hardwoods up, but it forces them up too fast; they get too thin. Once the hardwoods finally died on their own the hardwood is too tall and too thin, it has absolutely no tolerance to ice buildup in an ice or wet snow storm. I have had such slender trees bent over until their tip touched the ground. So, in essence, leaving it that way ensures the doom of hardwoods and conifers, it seems from what I have observed.

I want some nice white pines, and some that can get full spread. If you had row upon row of conifers, you end up with a field of utility poles for a while, and then all in the interior ultimately die. If you want full, or good, spread on white pines they need to have 30 foot spacing in both directions, and better yet would be 40 foot spacing.

Healthy white pines live a long time, and they outgrow many hardwoods, so it is not something you could just leave alone.

[BaldBob]

"The cut trees need to be either chipped or burned. If I do neither, I create the beetle problem which will likely devastate my planting."

You state this as if it is absolute fact.  Based on over fifty years experience working with species that are routinely attacked by various bark beetles, I see that as very likely, at least, a gross overstatement.  Texas Ranger, who has a similar level of experience, has been saying essentially the same thing as I am. Your forester may have 15 to 20 years on the job, but if that time was all spent in Iowa where conifers and conifer bark beetles are not the norm I would have some doubts about what he is saying on this issue.

[SwampDonkey]

bigsnowdog, you are right about thinning hardwood left too thick for too long. If they are 40 feet tall and thinned the ice or even sap flow in the spring can bend them over, especially birch and cherry. I don't know how big your pine are, but 40 foot spacing for a white pine would have to be a mature one or getting there. If your looking long term, long rotation time, you have to thin over time as the trees grow, it's not a one time deal like some would like it to be. It's to aid self pruning and crown lift from below as the tree grows in height. Thinning is generally good for 25 years and then another thinning is required and so on. At first the trees are not merchantable (pre-commercial), by the second a few are merchantable (semi-commercial), and the third is a commercial thinning and to complete the rotation may be a final harvest or maybe you want the white pine remaining to be "legacy" trees. In nature they generally become legacy trees as they outlive most other species except hemlock and red spruce for instance up my way.

The conifers do not force the hardwood up any faster than the soil/climate carrying capacity will allow. As long as they are not over topped, the rate of height growth is mostly influenced by soil and climate unless extremely thick causing a nutrient/water deficit. This is expressed as site index in 50 years of growth. However, the diameter growth is suppressed with density and over time the stronger trees will express dominance (diameter/height) and the weaker ones will decline. More crown/leaves means more wood is made each year (ie annual rings get wider). Up in the northern temperate, hardwood out strips height growth in conifers every time, no matter if they are spaced out or crowded tight.  I have to thin plantations all the time because the hardwood over tops the spruce in the young stages, often 30-50% taller in the first 10-12 years. Eventually the hardwood top out and the shade tolerant conifers tower above them. You look on a hardwood ridge and the spruce, white pine and hemlock are above the hardwoods at maturity.

So far I have no clue what your burning is going to fix as far as bugs. Quite frankly I believe nothing, unless it's some exotic pest I never heard of. Bob and Tex are pretty knowledgeable fella's. I don't even see anything of concern that hasn't been brought up already when Googling  white pine pests in Iowa. But if there is something, I'd like to know about it. 

[bigsnowdog]

bigsnowdog, you are right about thinning hardwood left too thick for too long. If they are 40 feet tall and thinned the ice or even sap flow in the spring can bend them over, especially birch and cherry. I don't know how big your pine are, but 40 foot spacing for a white pine would have to be a mature one or getting there. If your looking long term, long rotation time, you have to thin over time as the trees grow, it's not a one time deal like some would like it to be. It's to aid self pruning and crown lift from below as the tree grows in height. Thinning is generally good for 25 years and then another thinning is required and so on. At first the trees are not merchantable (pre-commercial), by the second a few are merchantable (semi-commercial), and the third is a commercial thinning and to complete the rotation may be a final harvest or maybe you want the white pine remaining to be "legacy" trees. In nature they generally become legacy trees as they outlive most other species except hemlock and red spruce for instance up my way.

The conifers do not force the hardwood up any faster than the soil/climate carrying capacity will allow. As long as they are not over topped, the rate of height growth is mostly influenced by soil and climate unless extremely thick causing a nutrient/water deficit. This is expressed as site index in 50 years of growth. However, the diameter growth is suppressed with density and over time the stronger trees will express dominance (diameter/height) and the weaker ones will decline. More crown/leaves means more wood is made each year (ie annual rings get wider). Up in the northern temperate, hardwood out strips height growth in conifers every time, no matter if they are spaced out or crowded tight.  I have to thin plantations all the time because the hardwood over tops the spruce in the young stages, often 30-50% taller in the first 10-12 years. Eventually the hardwood top out and the shade tolerant conifers tower above them. You look on a hardwood ridge and the spruce, white pine and hemlock are above the hardwoods at maturity.

So far I have no clue what your burning is going to fix as far as bugs. Quite frankly I believe nothing, unless it's some exotic pest I never heard of. Bob and Tex are pretty knowledgeable fella's. I don't even see anything of concern that hasn't been brought up already when Googling  white pine pests in Iowa. But if there is something, I'd like to know about it. 

The walnuts tend to keep up with the white pines, but the oaks, sugar maples, and hickories fall way behind. A 30 foot tall pine stands next to a 24 to 26 foot oak, to give a sense of scale.

[Jeff]

As a matter of forum decorum bigsnowdog, it is absolutely unnecessary to quote every post, especially if it was the latest post you are replying to. The practice makes trying to keep up with a topic to say the least, tiresome. 

[Gary_C]

Some pictures of the trees would be nice to be able to see your problem. But what I have seen in SE Minnesota, you could have soil conditions such that pines, in particular Scotch Pine will grow two bushy and not tall enough. If you do indeed have 10-12 inch trees and only 30 feet tall, yes it may be difficult to harvest any trees and not leave a mess of brush behind.

Some years ago I did a pine thinning, with a harvester, in SE MN and the owner had planted erosion control rows of red pine on the edges of ridges on the tops of the hills. Plus he had planted some stands of Scotch Pines where they had harvested some Christmas Trees till the trees got too tall and then they let them grow. The red (norway) pine was tolerable to thin but the scotch pine was so bushy that after processing a few stems and just getting about two sticks, the top had to be discarded and soon my harvester was so surrounded by the limbs and tops I could not move. So it proved to be nearly impossible to remove rows without dragging those trees out of the stand.

So I had to give up the thinning of the scotch pine and last I knew the owner had just left them grow as it would have cost thousands of dollars to get a chipper in and clear off the site. Sounds like you may have a similiar problem. The only other solution he could think of was to get a pole saw type chain saw head and manually thin the lower branches to open up the stand. but at 30 feet, it's a lot of work and may be too late.

Here's before and after pictures I took of that red pine on that job.

 



 



Are these pictures similiar to your stand?

[bigsnowdog]

My situation is not that dense.

It is certainly true that the Scotch pines are much more bushy and obnoxious to work with. You have to do delimbing even to get to the trunk to fell the tree.

I had to drag all the Scotch pines out, as was your experience. They are too big, and block the aisle, so to speak, though it is not that much better with the whites.

[Taylortractornut]

I cant comment on the beetles but I can help on the burning the green piles.    I ve burnt many tousnd tons of trees clearing land.      Cut the trees and start piling them.    Pile them parralell to the main dirstion of the wind in your area.    Mix in a little dry   with the end of the pile facing the  wind.   Light it on a windy day and the wind will  push the fire  into the green pines.     Another  thing I learned is that the sap  seems to get more  potent after about 7 or 8 days. 

[bigsnowdog]

What do you mean by potent?

[Ianab]

I think he means it burns a lot better after it's been sitting for a week. A lot of the moisture seem to be drawn out of the needles and twigs, but the flammable resin is still there, so it burns a lot better.

There are various ways of getting a good burn. I do the hot fire and throw the brush on top as I'm working manually, and we just drag the limbs for the tree to the fire 15ft downwind, so it only gets handled once. Feeling a tree one weekend, and then limbing, clean up and burn the next week does give a better burn.

Around here pines like that would just be thinned to waste, and left where they fell. After 12months they would pretty much be worm food. But that's with our climate, pines, and bugs. Your situation may be different, but that's a lot of trees to clean up manually. Still I guess you
could drag them out, cut them into manageable chunks and use a small excavator or front end loader to keep the burn pile fed ?

Ian

[Taylortractornut]

We just burnt 70 tons of scrap pine at work this way.  Ianab is right  on what I meant on potent.  The  mosture has left a good bit of the pine and  the sap is still their and makes it seem more flamable.     Id rather chip and compost it but  a chipper wont come out for that amount.     I ate waste I burn wood and will cut ome pine to put in with my  fire wood at the time.   

[bigsnowdog]

I guess you
could drag them out, cut them into manageable chunks and use a small excavator or front end loader to keep the burn pile fed ?

Ian

I will use my loader tractor.

[BaldBob]

As soon as he responds, please let us know what type of beetle your extension forester is concerned about.

[bigsnowdog]

I will. I am frustrated by the delay.

[woodtroll]

So am I.
This has really peeked my interest.
They don't know how many of us are waiting to know.

[SwampDonkey]

Feels like a cop out to be this long. 

[bigsnowdog]

Here is the reply I got this morning. It is via the forester from a state entomologist:



Pityogenes hopkinsi is the bark beetle that attacks Eastern white pine.
 
Ips grandicollis (1st) and Ips pini are the main bark beetles attacking Scots pine.



What, then, are the implications regarding the white pines?

If I don't care if the Scotch pine population is affected, can I just leave them lay after I cut them, or will the Ips beetle move to the whites?

[Texas Ranger]

I have a feeling they emailed  you a description out of a text book, which may or may not be the bug in question.

Sorry, I am at a loss, but Ips shold not proliferate from slash.

[SwampDonkey]

The only literature I see on this bug (chestnut brown bark beetle) is from the 50's and it was a study about slash and how bug communities change in it as the slash gets broken down. Some bugs and fungus move in to do their thing, then move on so others can continue the decay process. It was a study on red and white pines. Your on the very edge of eastern white pine range. Why would it be a problem on the fringe, and not up here in pine country? It's nothing more than an engraver beetle (bark beetle to some) that attacks dead trees or very ill pine trees, on the way out anyway.

I will have to see if my entomologist friends in Ontario can offer some info.

[bigsnowdog]

Thank you.

[bigsnowdog]

I have a feeling they emailed  you a description out of a text book, which may or may not be the bug in question.

Sorry, I am at a loss, but Ips shold not proliferate from slash.

We're talking about the white pines, as I don't care about the Scotches. Also, this is not slash, it is the entire tree.

[BaldBob]

"... Ips shold not proliferate from slash."

TR,
Although Ips normally does not build up in slash and down trees in the South, that is a very common concurrence in colder climates.

Bigsnowdog,
Yes Ips can move on to the White pine, but it is unlikely to cause much mortality in healthy White pine.  I have never heard of instances of the chestnut brown bark beetle causing major damage to white pine stands.  Perhaps it does where you are. But I would want to have the extension forester give me info on where it has been a major problem in your area before I went to the effort and expense of burning those trees, based on some theoretical speculation.

[woodtroll]

Our Ips can be a localized problem but not from winter thinning or logging. Just after April. So they do not move to the slash in the fall and winter, once it warms up they do.
Our Ips only hit the smaller pines, or tops of larger trees stressed by something.

Chest Nut Brown Bark Beetle (CNBBB) the scurrg of the forest... Had not heard of it before and have found out little. It is only mentioned in passing in the literature I have read.

The key is to know the life cycle, break the conditions of the life cycle and your fine.

This much I know, they will not fly to your white pine or from your white pine in the winter.

I think for the education and entertainment of us on this board you should perform an experiment and treat half of the cut trees and leave the other half. Then next summer or when ever this beetle flies to your healthy trees you can let us know.

JUST KIDDING!

I would certainly question your forester, it is your privilege, just to know so you are not wasting time or energy on the skidding, piling and burning.
Last question is it a requirement for the practice, and is it a cost shared practice?

[bigsnowdog]

No, I am not required to do this, and it is not cost shared.

[terry f]

in eastern oregon you shouldnt cut lodgepole before aug first unless you chip or burn the slash as the pine beatle will reproduce and infect your leave trees. my understanding is they prefer slash over green trees

[BaldBob]

Terry,
The beetle that builds up in and prefers the slash created in the spring and summer in Eastern Oregon is the Ips Beetle, not the Mountain Pine Beetle - which rarely uses or does well in slash or down trees.  Ips tends to be more of a problem for Ponderosa than it is for Lodgepole.  Most of the Lodgepole beetle mortality in your area is from Mountain Pine beetle.  BTW I am quite familiar with the conditions around Meacham, as I was Chief Forester for BCC in Northeast Oregon for many years.

[SwampDonkey]

I think someone is after the park look.

[bigsnowdog]

What is your point?

[SwampDonkey]

That it's as much about looks as it is bugs. Don't see anything negative in it, being that it's small acreage and lots of free time apparently.

[bigsnowdog]

I am trying to have trees live, rather than die from whatever reasons, including overcrowding and stress.  It is not clear to me how efforts in response to insect control and mortality are summarized as all about looks.

No, I really have no free time. That is one reason this is such a problem.

I have had roughly 10% of my white pines die over a period of five years for unexplainable reasons. Evaluation includes specimens being analyzed by state forestry and entomology labs. Their best explanation is stress. One suggestion to reduce stress is to thin. Ag chemicals are another possible factor. The mortality has followed a rather distinct path through the planting. It is about 2/3 of the way through.

I am trying to be conservative and do as much damage control as possible. Perhaps this is small at 15 acres, rather than 20,000 acres, though no one has ever questioned the value of it due to size. Typically I am complimented for having put for the effort to reforest in an ag state.

[Piston]

Bigsnowdog,
Based on what you know, and the fact that you are just trying to learn, I can see why you can get aggravated with some of the replies 

It sounds like all your trying to do is follow the advice of your forester and learn a bit about forest management and pest/disease control, nothing wrong with that. 

Your doing the right thing by listening to your forester, the problem seems to be that he may/may not be right.  There is a lot of experience from people on here and they seem to question your forester.  It may be wise to get a couple other opinions from other foresters who could visit the site if that is possible. 

The guys are just trying to save you time and not do unnecessary work.  I think your doing the right thing based on the info you have and I give you credit for caring about your little slice of earth 

I also want to see you try out the leaf blower trick I mentioned on your brush pile 

Keep asking questions and try not to get discouraged    The foresters on this site are some pretty *DanG smart people and they are only here because they love what they do.  Ask your forester if he is as interested and dedicated in his job as these guys are 

[bigsnowdog]

Thanks for your post. Regarding the leaf blower idea, I will definitely be trying it!

[SwampDonkey]

The precise wording is "as much about looks as it is bugs".    As your local forester(s) seem to have told you, you need to thin at this point. But that's only effective if the trees can respond positively if they are now healthy. A suppressed, weakling isn't going to spring back to full vigour. With white pine, blister rust and weevils, the two not in your list of damage agents, are most likely to cause grief than bugs in slash piles. Have any of those local foresters visited your woods? You may be getting some type of herbicide entering from fields as you were offered. However, I have no information on how some of those chemicals can move. Then there is the possibility of root disease which gets amplified by root grafting between the pines. I have a small spot on the edge of my woods, where fir, spruce and aspen die. Don't know what it is, but it's just a tiny patch within a 6 foot radius. And I don't see ants. The soil is well drained. My suspicions are that the logger dumped his burnt oil and jugs under the berm that was pushed up when making a yard. A common practice I see quite often.

I care about your 15 acres to. I don't get paid to be here, so 15 acres or 20,000 acres I'm still poor.

[bigsnowdog]

I appreciate your help. To say I am an uneducated forester is to suggest I am any sort of forester at all. I have learned a lot the hard way in these efforts since 1979.

I am, in addition to thinning, also removing any trees that lack vigor or seem in questionable health. Thirty years ago I had the idea that you plant a tree and it lives because there will be nothing to kill it. How wrong could I be? At times it is depressing to see all the things that cause mortality.

[beenthere]

................
I have had roughly 10% of my white pines die over a period of five years for unexplainable reasons. Evaluation includes specimens being analyzed by state forestry and entomology labs. Their best explanation is stress. One suggestion to reduce stress is to thin. Ag chemicals are another possible factor. The mortality has followed a rather distinct path through the planting. It is about 2/3 of the way through.
............

That info helps a lot. 
There may be something to the knowledge that white pine are out of their range in IA.

Hopefully you don't become discouraged over our responses, but even your experts can only come up with a "best explanation is stress". I think our responses were meant to help you get through the exercise of burning green white pine and your plea for help to do it with no money for a chipper, no money for a grapples, and what appeared to be a lack of information as to why. We could only attempt to read between the lines. We were just as frustrated trying to help you with your "problem".

[woodtroll]

You gave another clue in the "path" of dead trees. Causes of tree death can be many, but they leave clues. Pine beetle, doesn't matter which, would show evidence. They attack live trees. You should see bore holes, sap, and sometimes saw dust when first attacked. The trees should have galleries (beetle tunnels)under the bark. The different bark beetles have distinct galleries, whether the tunnel is filled with in with saw dust or open, or the shape of the nuptial chamber. Ips leave their gallery open, (mountain) pine bark beetles fill theirs.
Both beetles attack stressed trees. The tree can be stressed from being to thick or affected by other pathogens.

 

[terry f]

sorry Bob I thought Ips and pine beatle here were the same thing. doesent seem to hit the ponderosa but if you remember this area in the 70s and early 80s it looked like montana does now. which beatle was that and do you think the old BCC lands are in as good of stewardship as they were with boise.

[BaldBob]

Terry,
That was the Mountain Pine Beetle that was responsible for hitting the Eastern Oregon Lodgepole so heavily in the 70's & 80's. Both MPB and Ips are bark beetles, but Ips usually only causes top kill in otherwise healthy trees. The Mountain Pine Beetle can and does cause extensive mortality in Ponderosa. A few stands of pole to small saw timber sized PP that I didn't get thinned soon enough, just North of Elgin, OR and some in the Dayton, WA, area suffered some heavy MPB mortality in the early 80's.  Colorado is currently  experiencing heavy mortality in both their Lodgepole and Ponderosa from it.  However, except in the most extreme outbreaks, mortality to PP from it usually occurs in younger trees that are overstressed by either over crowding or drought. Unlike Lodgepole,which produces little resin, a healthy Ponderosa can "pitch out" the beetles unless it is overwhelmed by sheer numbers of attacking beetles. Because if that trait, while thinning in Lodgepole prior to a beetle outbreak is usually only marginally effective in protecting the stand, Ponderosa stands can be made almost beetle proof with this practice.

The current owners of the former BCC lands have different objectives than we had when I was managing those lands. Their level of harvest is heavier than what we did. But overall, from what I saw prior to my leaving that area  in 2009 (retired from BCC in 2000), they seemed to be practicing good forestry. They seem to lean more heavily to even-aged management than I did.  I managed about 50% of the stands (the drier sites) on an uneven aged basis, while they seem to be putting 80 -90% of the stands on an even-aged regime. While even-aged management may not be as aesthetically appealing as uneven aged management, biologically it is not necessarily inferior.

[terry f]

Thanks Bob,I prefer uneven stand. I like seeing the bigger trees and you know how long they take to grow on the dry side of oregon, but i'm not a forester and don't have to make money from the harvest.

[bigsnowdog]

My district forester has read this thread and is engaging in further discussion with other state foresters and entomologists. He indicated good questions were raised in the thread.

[woodtroll]

Terry,
I recently had the pleasure of hearing the gentleman from Alberta and their massive strategy to hold strong against the m pine beetle.
It sounds good and practical. It has to do with setting areas of priority for management. Areas that are to far gone, areas that can be helped with thinning and harvesting then areas on the out skirts using individual treatment of trees. It is all to get the forest thinned to a healthy level in the pine, an uneven aged level also.
I need to start a new thread.

Bigsnowdog, glad to hear it.