Notch depth and type on heavily leaning tree

[Jeff]

My mother in law has a 4 stemmed maple in her back yard that she has asked Tammy, to ask me, to come take down 3 of the trunks.  I recall seeing the tree, but have not looked at it close in a couple years I guess. As I remember, it's pretty good sized. Anyhow, 3 of the stems have a pretty good lean to them and I am worried about a possible barber chair situation.

Is it better in this situation to have a deeper notch, so you can get thorough the back cut quicker, or is it better to have a shallow, but wide notch.  Its pretty obvious what way the trees are going to go when they go down. Tammy was there this past week in the wind, and she said the ground was moving all around the tree as the leaners were being pushed. She sent me a couple photos via her cell phone. The photos make the tree actually look smaller than I remember it.

 

[Weekend_Sawyer]

 I'm not a pro so I will not reply with advice but will watch this thread with interest.

Jon

[Ianab]

Personally - Shallow notch, just enough to allow you to form a hinge, then bore cut it.


I wont repeat all the discussion that was in this thread but it's got diagrams and all.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,22582.0.html

Trying to "race" a conventional cut just leaves you open to a barberchair where the tree splits apart as it falls, and things get ugly real fast when that happens.

Ian

[T Welsh]

Small directional notch, enough to get it in the area intended. and bore cut it and then release the back strap. keep a healthy strap, say about 3". they look like good leaner,s and are maple. if you try to do it with a regular felling cut it will start splitting and try to barber chair on you as you are cutting the back cut and that,s not fun. I,m with Ianab! Tim

[snowstorm]

what he said

[Jeff]

We may go over tomorrow. I've not committed to cutting it, as I don't know what else is in the vicinity. I'm not taking on anything that should involve an expert.

[bill m]

So far all of these replies are right on. Open face notch just deep enough to get a hinge width of about 80% of the DBH. Then bore cut to form the hinge and cut to the back of the tree leaving a strap to hold it from falling till you are ready. Be aware that a heavy leaner will fall very fast when you cut the strap and you will not have a lot of time to make a safe retreat as it falls, so make sure there are no widow makers that could be dislodged as the tree starts to fall or any other hazards you can identify.

[Ianab]

Only real questions are "are you confident" doing the bore cutting? Or do you want to practise it on some less critical trees first?

And what's in the general vicinity is probably the most important. You don't have much option as to what direction it's going to fall. If there is something in the way, then it's probably going to have to come down in pieces.

Ian

[T Welsh]

What Ianab said. words of wisdom, he must know from having played with bore cuts. but the most important thing is what is in its way of being damaged if all goes wrong Tim

[Jeff]

I've done some bore cutting, so I've got no reservations about that. I have been told there is a bird feeder in the way that can be moved, that there is some bushes that can be sacrificed, and that the tree tops will reach into the neighbors back yard, and they have no issue with that.  I need to look at it all for myself.   These trees will be firewood, so it's not like I am going to potentially mess up some logs.

My other reservation is, how close the 3 trunks are to each other, and how their individual tops are related.  A guy has to have room to get his saw in to make the cuts, but depending on how the tops are entwined, you might be forced to take one down before the other, and if that one happens to be the middle one, then things might get sticky.  Like I said, I'm not committing to anything other than looking it over to begin with.

[submarinesailor]

I would consider putting a heavy strap around it just above the notch.  If course keeping it out of the way.

Bruce

[madmari]

Those trees look like classic bore cut canidates.
I like to use a shallow (1/4 tree diameter) facecut, very open (70 degrees) and leave a meaty back strap. The barberchairs seem to eminate from the tree center usually and the bore cut will have already severed the heart.  Accuracy counts- slow is fast in this case.
   Cut a bunch of those today, only red oak. It's a slick way to safely drop those trees.

Be safe 

[John Mc]

This kind of situation is exactly what a bore cut is most suited for. Barber chair tends to happen on a heavy front leaner because the tree starts to fall "too soon" -- that is before you have the hinge set to the thickness you want. By bore cutting, you get the hinge all set up before the tree goes. Then, when you are ready, cut the holding wood in back.

With a properly done bore cut, there will be no need for a strap wrapped around the trunk. No barber chair because the hinge is not thick enough to cause the trunk to split on the way down.

John Mc

[DonT]

I agree with the advice given so far,strapping the tree with a ratchet strap is something i do regularily.Open face notch and bore cut looks like it would work,another option is the Coo"s Bay, but directional control is lost.Just from what I see in the pics you might get the top trying to roll out from the other stems,rolling the butt towards the cutter.If you want to measure where the top of the tree will land,cut a stick about 4ft long,hold it against your shoulder and measure to the end of your extended finger,grasp the stick at this point,hold the stick upright with your arm held straight out in front of you, now face the tree point your hand at the base of the tree,walk backwards until you can line up the top of the tree with the top of the stick.This is where the top of the tree will reach.A better explanation can be found in jeff Jepsons book,it is called the "stick trick" based on the Pathageran(sp) theory finding the length of an unknown side of a triangle,I think it is Asquared is equal to Bsquared is =C squared

[LeeB]

a squared +b squared = c squared.

[Reddog]

Shallow notch with a bore cut. Or Coo's bay.

[WH_Conley]

What is a "Coo's Bay"? I probably have seen it under a different name.

[zopi]

Yeah...bore cut..wide notch, and shallow..I will often make the bore cut at a downward angle to towards the hinge...that way if the trunk decides to split anyway I have a chance to get gone, and maybe still control the release of the tree...
My preference with these though, is to go up, either climbing or in the bicket and knock out as much weight from the tops as possible...right down to the trunk if I can arrange it..then just lop off the trunks...
Had a hackberry partially barberchair on me this week...no indications of stress in the tree...the little bugger just let go...hard enough to shut the saw down and send it back out of the backcut...nearly got me. Good thing it was fairly small...

[Kevin]

What is a "Coo's Bay"?

The Coos Bay is only used on heavy head leaners, it has no directional control.
You cut the wood away from both sides of the tree leaving a strip of wood down the center and inline with the fall.
Start cutting the strip from the back towards the front and the tree falls towards the lean.

[Banjo picker]

Is there a formula for how much wood to leave in the hinge, and do you get a lot of tear out from that....?  Tim

[Kevin]

It would be the same as any other method, the bigger the tree the more hinge wood you would leave.
Both cuts would normally be a little over 1/3 into the side of the tree.
I would opt for the bore over the coos.
If your bar wasn't long enough to bore and one side was blocked by another tree you might opt for the coos but it would be a rare case for me to use it.

[shelbycharger400]

i do something similar to the coo's ,   on heavy leaners, i cut the normal felling notch shallow, the diagonal one first then the horizontal, sometimes comming back in again , heavy leaners can pinch you up even in notching. this is why i bring 2 to 3 saws with on close jobs, about 7 on long drives away from home.   then i shallow notch the sides at a slight diagonal to the front, basically cutting it so their is a 1/3 left on backside, then come and back cut it, it dosnt explode as bad .  some might find it odd, I do like to hear cracking as i turn and run, then i know its comming down, and hear  when it hits.

blow downs/ leaners...are a lot more trickey "fun"  shallow notching top and bottom of log prior to cut through. 

[Jeff]

Well, it's all a mute point now. I went and looked the situation over. I should have took pictures but did not.  The largest most heavily leaning stem was 23" DBH. The top of which was growing through the fork of a heavy limb on another very large maple tree closer to the house, which in all likelihood could roll the tree towards the house. The water well head is located very close to the path that the tree would probably fall, about twenty feet out from the tree.  The tree had 6 stems, not 4. Two of the other stems are leaning over top of a very nice cedar that they do not want harmed. One of the other stems that could be taken out easy enough, is locked in by two that can not.  This is a job for a climber. Not for me.  There is another cottonwood tree they would like down too that they did have an estimate on a year ago. $1200 for that tree. I figure that's probably cheap. Its a monster and its right next to the power line going into the garage, and real close to the garage.  I have a photo of that tree from a year ago.

Anyhow, I ain't doing it.

 

[Reddog]

it would be a rare case for me to use it.

Agreed, about the only time I use it is when the tree is too small to bore cut.

[shelbycharger400]

if its a definate P.T.A. best to walk away 

in the past, i block'd up a well with cement retaining wall blocks to shield it, never droped on it tho.

[lumberjack48]

I've cut many thousands of leaning trees. the only safe cut i found was the Ole box cut, never got stuck or had a barber chair with this cut

Jeff that sounds like quit a project, the main thing is to stay safe

I figured i was one of the best, but there were a few times i had to tuck my tale in and walk away, i wasn't insured if things went bad.

[WH_Conley]

Walking away sounds like the smartest move. I wouldn't touch that mess.

[zopi]

Yeah...1200 would be a steal jist based on what I see...probably go closer to 15 or 16 down here...

[zopi]

Walking away sounds like the smartest move. I wouldn't touch that mess.

I live for that kind of mess...more fun than a video game...can actually kill you if you screw up.

[SwampDonkey]

jeff Jepsons book,it is called the "stick trick" based on the Pathageran(sp) theory finding the length of an unknown side of a triangle,I think it is Asquared is equal to Bsquared is =C squared

Don, I think you are actually trying to use similar right triangles with the stick method. You take something like a broom stick, extend your arm straight out front, elevate hand to eye level. Take the broom stick and hold it horizontal from your eye to your elevated hand. Note the position (length), flip the broom handle vertical with the end from your eye to the top. You now have an right angled isosolese triangle: two sides,two angles equal. Using the principle of similar triangles step back from the tree until the top of the broom handle and your line of sight line up with the tree top. Measure the distance between where your standing to the tree trunk, add height to eye level from ground (5.5' ??). Don't have to worry about math with this method because your angles are 90-45-45. Tangent 45 is 1, so only have to measure distance from observer to tree and add eye level. But of course a leaner provides a challenge as it is not truly vertical. But if you add the distance from the tree base to the standing position where the tree top is directly over your head, it should compensate. Of course this assumes level ground to.

Dodgy Loner makes an explanation in this thread with a drawing.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,36600.msg530736.html#msg530736

[madmari]

All this math has made me thirsty

I tried the stick method once and very nearly was hit when the tree went by. It is un-nerving aiming the stick as the tree falls towards you.

[smwwoody]

Jeff,

Take a look at this page.  http://sharplogger.vt.edu/onlineCE.html  Click on the basic chainsaw safety and directional felling online course.  I think they do a real good job for an online course.  It is a CE course for Virginia's sharp logger program but anyone can take it just leave your sharp logger # blank


Woody

[Ianab]

All this math has made me thirsty

I tried the stick method once and very nearly was hit when the tree went by. It is un-nerving aiming the stick as the tree falls towards you.

You are supposed to poke the stick in the ground, and casually tell the audience that's where the top of the tree will land 

If you get it right, it should hit the stick. If you miss.. well there are any number of excuses.  "Didn't want to bust a perfectly good measuring stick" 

I'd not be concerned about taking down those trees, IF there was no valuable targets nearby. As soon as you mention sheds, power lines, other wanted trees it gets tricky. I'd walk away from that as well. Get someone that can climb or has a bucket truck to take them out in pieces. If you can get them to just piece the tree down, and then clean up the mess yourself you will save a lot of $$

Ian

[zopi]

Oh yes...if I do not have to haul out the remains...my prices take a dive...unfortunately I do not get to do that much...most cities require the company to remove their waste...it is part of contract law in some plaves as well...but I get one every now amd then...drop, buck, and walk...love those.
Got climbing jobs both monday and tues day of next week..simple ones though...good pay too.

[Jasperfield]

Kevin,

When cutting using the Coo's Bay method; Do you cut the two side cuts straight in or do you notch them?

And, whether straight in or notched, do you cut perpendicular to the tree or make the cuts level?

Thanks

[Reddog]

I am  not Kevin.

But will answer, straight in just a saw kerf, perpendicular to the tree.

[Kevin]

For small trees I would prefer to use a triangle cut to reduce the tension.
You still use a face cut with a hinge which keeps the tree from rolling out of control.

[Autocar]

I might as well add my two cents    I put a small notch then bore all the way though and get the falling hinge lined up. Pull my saw out and where the flares of the roots inter the ground I will saw into them this will keep the pressure of the leaning tree from pulling  the root system out as it goes over. Then I put the saw back into the bore cut and swing it on though. Root systems can grab you and take you for a wild ride so it's important to clip the roots on the high side of the tree.

[Meadows Miller]

Personally - Shallow notch, just enough to allow you to form a hinge, then bore cut it.

Ian

Ians spot on there just about a 1/4 scarf back cut 1/10th then bore cut the guts the little bit holding it up will let go when its ready whilst leaving you with a good hinge to control its fall 

Regards Chris

[SPIKER]

Jeff:

One thing I have seen on my place with some red oak similar to those maples was when one was coming down the opposite side broke out and all 4 ended up splitting out when the 1st one came down.   lucky none came close to me when they came down.   the root ball split something I had not seen prior but first time with a quartet of heavy leaners..

these were deep in the woods oak, the center opened up between them and all 4 went in opposite directions... I left them figure they are fire wood even though nice size with the lean I would guess they would twist like crazy.


Mark

[Kevin]

Mark;
That might have been root pull, it usually happens when the cut is close to the ground and the hinge wood is over a root.
They can split deep into the ground, stall the fall in a narrow face which could easily barber chair or pull the tree to one side.