2 cycle engine oil

[kenskip1]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about the 2 cycle oil from Amsoil. I run 3 Stihl saws and all work fine. A 056, 041, 028. Is this oil suitable for use in these saws? The manufacturer recommends a 100/1 ratio. This seems very lean from  my point of view. Has anyone ever used this product? I am looking to keep the engines in as good condition as possible. Do not get me wrong. I run the tar out of the saws and want to keep them around for another  few years.However my saws are well maintained. Any information would be appreciated, Ken in Snowy NY.

[oldsaw-addict]

Is the oil that you are speaking of guaranteed not to cause damage to any engine that it is used in? If not I would not recommend using it, but I would recommend ignoring ANYTHING that says to mix it at a 100:1 ratio as this is far too lean of a mixture for ANY 2 cycle engine in my opinion. I would advise mixing the oil no leaner than 50:1 at the most. I use a 40:1 fuel oil mix in all 3 of my saws, and 50:1 in my Husky 323L brushcutter. I stay at the machines factory mix ratio specs, no more no less, its cheaper than running something that is almost straight gas in it and having to do costly repairs.

[Blue9R]

Amsoil synthetic 2 cycle oil has a base of dedicated users for chainsaws & 2 cycle air cooled outdoor power equipment.  The most popular mix ratios, from my observations, are 100:1 and 80:1.

The Amsoil oil formulation uses a synthetic base oil blend plus an addivite package that contains friction reducers. At 100:1, the 1.28 oz/gal. of Amsoil mix performs the same lubrication function as the 2.56 oz/gal. of 50:1 Stihl-Echo-Husky dino mix oil.

Part of the reason is that the Stihl-Echo-Husky oil has solvent added to it to promote the mixing of the base oils & additives with gasoline.  Amsoil does not rely on solvent and could be described as more "concentrated".

As far as my personal opinion - way too much "hype" associated with the oil & it is this type of marketing that turns me away from the product.

[Corley5]

I'll just stick with my Husky two cycle mix.  It works good and they'll stand behind it.

[oldsaw-addict]

Now thats what I'm talking about, a good smart person who stays with what works well and doesnt give them trouble in the first place. I say, if it aint broke dont screw with it.

[Mark M]

That is a good oil but it is best to follow the manufacturers recommendation for the mix ratio, actually I use a little more oil than the recommended 50:1 and add one of those little 1 gal size bottles to 0.9 gallons of oil and this gives about 45:1 or so. I have some of this oil and will mix it at the same ratio.

I will not mix 100:1

Mark

[Corley5]

I stick with my saws brand of oil for the warranty.  Some friends of mine had a pair of still under warranty 394 Huskys .  They were almost to the job one morning and realized they'd left their Husky mix at the shop 60 miles away.  They stopped and bought some outboard mix at a gas station and went to the woods.  Neither saw made it the day and Husky wouldn't stand behind the warranty because they didn't use Husky oil.  I always mix mine a bit rich too.  I use the bottles that mix 2.5 gallons of gas at 50-1 and put a bottle in 2 gallons.  I'd rather have a saw smoke a little than blow up.

[Blue9R]

A couple of years ago, Stihl had a 2 cycle oil on the market labeled as “Universal 2 cycle oil for all air cooled engines”.  This oil came in a white bottle/container and was packaged in sizes for a 40:1 mix ratio.

When I inquired about the oil, thru Stihl USA in Virginia Beach, a factory tech told me it was the same oil as the Stihl orange bottle mix.

So what we have is Stihl recommends the oil be mixed at 50:1 in Stihl equipment & 40:1 in all others.  I think this has something to do with the EPA as Stihl is only responsible for the emissions of the equipment with the Stihl logo.

Needless to say, whenever I use the Stihl orange bottle mix, I now mix it at 40:1 for my Stihl saws.  BTW, the Stihl orange bottle mix is a very good dino oil, IMHO, and the standard to compare all other dino oils against.  

[Mark M]

Corely,

The problem in the case you mentioned was they used outboard oil or oil for water cooled engines in an air cooled engine. It was the wrong kind of oil and very different chemically from chainsaw oil. It wasn't covered by warranty because the warranty covers defects in materials and workmanship. Using the wrong oil will never be covered under warranty for this reason. Also using Stihl oil mixed at the wrong ratio or adjusting the carb too lean would not be covered either because here again these are not manufacturing defects. Some customers will try to pass off something like this off on warranty when they screw up, but a good mechanic or failure analysis person can easily identify lubrication related problems sure as inadequate lubrication by examining the parts.

Manufacturers cannot refuse to to warrant a problem in material or workmanship because you do not use their oil and it is against the law to require you to use their oil unless they provide it for free. If I decide to use a different oil then it is up to me to make sure in meets Stihl's spec. In my job as oil lab manager this issue comes up almost daily and part of my job is to help our customer's select the appropriate oil. It would be nice if they would all use Cat oil because then they nor I have to worry if they are selecting the correct oil, but many times I will recommend that a customer use John Deere oil in a Cat machine just because they have easy access to the oil or a good supplier and the JD oil meets our specs.

With something like chainsaw oil there is no good reason not to use the OEM oil. The cost isn't significantly different and most of us don't use that much oil to make it worth the effort to try saving a few pennies. It's a no-brainier you use Stihl oil in your Stihl saw or Husky oil in your Husky. You can't go wrong.


Mark


PS - the worst problem I deal with is customers who want to use engine oil in transmissions. 25 years ago this was the standard for Cat machines, but then transmission friction material started changing and the oils were blended with friction modifying additives to control slippage and clutch wear. Engine oils are meant to be slippery but our customers want to use 15W40 in their transmissions. Problem is they do not fail right away but will maybe run 8000-10000 hours. With the correct oil they will run 12000-15000 hours. The customer's complain the transmissions are poorly designed because they don't last as long as they should but they are too bull-headed to follow our advice. I tell them the next time they take their new 4-wheel drive pickup in for an oil change to tell the mechanic to put engine oil in the transmission. Needless to say the customer says "I can't do that, it takes a special oil!". Funny how you can't put the wrong oil in a $35,000 pickup but it's OK to do it in a million dollar piece of mining equipment. You wouldn't believe how many incompetent equipment mangers there are out there!

Go-figger!

[Blue9R]

Mark - appreciate your comments as a background in the heavy equipment field provides a wealth of technical experience & knowledge.

Here is a hypothetical question:

What is your 2 cycle oil recommendation for a user of 2 cycle equipment that includes a 32:1 McCulloch 10-10 chainsaw, a 40:1 Poulan/Weedeater string trimmer, an Echo 50:1 blower, a  50:1 Stihl 026 chainsaw, a 50:1 Husky 365 chainsaw and for good measure, an 50:1 Ariens 522 2 cycle snowthrower?

Yes, admittedly, this is a trick question!

[Mark M]

Hi Blue

Well if it was me I would mix at 45:1 with either Stihl or Husky oil and use it in everything. This is what I do and I have a Echo brush saw (40:1), a McCulloch leaf blower and McCulloch weedeater (either 32:1 or 40:1 can't remember), a couple of Stihl saws (50:1) , a couple of Husky saws (50:1), and a Jonsered.

I have both Stihl and Husky oil and use one of those little 1 gallon bottles mixed with 0.9 gallons. I use this in everything and consider the Husky and Stihl oils to be equivalent. I do have some Amsoil Synthetic but have not yet used it. I will mix this 45:1 also.

I don't think the mix ratio is set in concrete or as fussy as some would have you think. You don't want too much oil because of plug fowling and piston deposits but I think the engines rated at 32:1 will work fine with a good quality oil mixed a little more dilute. I sometimes think they picked 32:1 instead of 40:1 or 50:1 because there are 32 ounces in a quart so you can do the math in your head i.e. 4 ounces of oil per 1 gallon of gas or 1 ounce of oil to 1 quart of oil. If you are not comfortable using 45:1 then mix some "thicker" stuff for your 10-10 and use the 45:1 for everything else.

Oh yeah, I should state that I am not an expert by any means on 2 cycle engines so go with your gut feeing on this. My training is on heavy-duty diesels and power transmission/hydraulics.

Hope I got the answer right

Mark

[Corley5]

Mark,
 The oil that blew up the chainsaws was also recommended for snowmobiles, chainsaws and most all two cycle engines and could even be ran in oil injectors in addition to outboards.  I used the same brand for years in our old Ski-Doos, Honda CR 125,  the injector of my Yamaha dirt bike, my old Husky 65 and even my Jonsered 2095 without any problems.  Maybe they had a bad batch but since they told me what happened I haven't used it since.  It is a national, well known name brand.  If anybody really wants to know what the brand is IM me

[Blue9R]

Mark,

Good answer, and by the way, I'm not an expert either.

An issue with 2 cycle air cooled engine oils is that the American Petroleum Institute (API) does not certify 2 stroke oils like the  API SL/SG rating for a 10W-30 4 cycle crankcase automotive oil.

The National Marine Manufactures Association certifies 2 stroke oils for use in water cooled marine engines. This is the NMMA TCW-3 cert that we see on outboard oil.  NMMA is constantly updating this list & the certified oils can be viewed on their website.

Air -cooled engines for OPE are a relatively small market for oil usage as compared to the gallons consumed in the TCW-3 market.

The current certifications for air -cooled 2 cycle engine oils come from both Japan, JASO-FC, and Europe, ISO-EGD. Both these certs require the 2 cycle oil to pass a rigid low smoke & minimal exhaust port deposit test.

Any 2 cycle oil exhibiting the JASO & ISO certs is an up-to-date formulation.  After seeing the pressure put on both 2 & 4 cycle engine manufactures by the California CARB restrictions, most 2 cycle oil formulators realize that the JASO & ISO certs are neccessary to be in business after 2005.

The problem is, tradition, in the 2 cycle OPE market,mandates that only Stihl-Husky-Echo 2 cycle oil be specified for Stihl-Husky-Echo equipment rather than specifying a JASO-FC or ISO-EGD oil.

Stihl-Husky-Echo does not recognize the fact that the functional equivalent of their specified oil will meet all the warranty requirements for their engines.  Again, the reason is that they are not recognizing the JASO/ISO certs.

So we all need to exercise some common sense and select our 2 cycle mix oil based on our experiences that what provides good results in one power ported, nikasil cylinder lined engine will give us similar results in the rest.

[Blue9R]

Corley5,

Pennzoil Dual Purpose oil is a commonly available 2 cycle oil that is marketed for both TCW-3 (Marine) liquid cooled engines & air cooled engines.  It simply does not work well in both applications.

The big difference in outboards & chainsaws is the cylinder temperatures.  Outboards, with water cooling, run at 300 deg F and air cooled engines run at 400 deg F.

Outboard TCW-3 oils use a hydrogen compound such as Hydrazine to prevent ring sticking.  Air cooled engines require the use of a low ash detergent, either Calcium or Magnesium Phenate that burns away at the higher temps & the ash aids to prevent rings from sticking.

Generally, running TCW-3 in your chainsaw is more of a "slow death" rather than an "instant seizure".

Your friends probably had a combination of problems, with either water in the gas or an incorrect mix. Many times people have problems with the math and do not add enough oil for a 50:1 mix.

[Mark M]

Blue

You are well versed in 2 cycle oils, what is your background? I'm pretty comfortable in diesel and hydraulic oils or that 2 stoke Detroit diesel, but don't know that much about 2 cycle stuff . I do know that the lube requirements for a Stihl is not significantly different from a Husky and will therefore interchange them. The good thing about using the OEM oils is you don't have to worry about any of these specifications, you just buy an oil that has the same name as the saw.

Corely I have seen those multipurpose oils and I know we used to use a 30wt non-detergent oil in saws and outboards. Now days with the emission requirements that must be met the manufacturers have had to make some radical changes in designs and special oils are required. As I said I don't know much about 2 cycle oils but I do know that water cooled engine run much cooler and that injection oil must be pumpable so because of reasons like this different oils are required.

Good discussion.

Mark

[Blue9R]

Mark,

I’m a manufacturing engineer working with automated assembly equipment.  Firewood cutting & chainsaws are one of my leisure time interests.  I also collect & rebuild Homelite chainsaws.  

Info on 2 cycle oil is out there, it exists as bits & pieces at different sites.  The basics are more likely to be found at motorcycle or snowmobile sites as the companies that market 2 cycle oils for this segment will provide info to promote the use of their product.

Shoot an e-mail off to me & I'll give you a link for more info.

Mike

[Ron Scott]

How many Homlites have you collected and do you have some vintage models?

[Blue9R]

Ron,

In vintage saws, I have a ZIP & an EZ Original.  For the Super EZ's, I have every variation of the blue, red/white, and all red saws that were made.

My favorite big Homelite is a SXL-925.

In the market for a 23MCS or a 26 LCS in good shape.

[Ron Scott]

A nice collection. I can recall and used some of them when they were popular saws. The only Homelite that I still have is the small XL-2 tree trimming saw. It's 34 + years old and still running strong. Just had a new rewind spring put in.

[Frickman]

You'all have mentioned some dual purpose oils. Have any of you had any experience with an oil that can be used as both an engine oil and hydraulic oil in heavy equipment? A few years ago an oil salesman stopped by the mill bragging about some new oil that would replace two seperate oils in our shop. He said I'd save money by stocking only one oil. Well, I don't mind stocking both engine and hydraulic oil, and doubt if the equipment manufacturerers would recommend it. I was just wondereing if anybody has heard of this?

[Mark M]

Hi Frickman

Engine oils are approved for use in Caterpillar hydraulic systems. I can get more info if you are interested. This is nothing new. I can't speak for other manfacturers. Usually hydraulic oil are R&O or rust and oxidation oils that have minimal additives. Engine oil have more additives, many of which are not needed in hydraulics but they don't cause problems. Below is something from another post I made. This has a link to the Cat Fluids Guide.

Mark

I don't know how much oil you are talking but a good choice would be 5W30 or 0W30 synthetic like Mobil One or some of the Petro Canada Products (eh). Down where your at Harold 10W30 would be pretty good as Andy indicated. 5W20 is also a pretty good choice in a colder climate. We have some customers that use it year round in their mining equipment. 10WT can be a little thin in warm climates if the system runs hot. I personally like a multivisc 30WT oil for warm temps because it provides better lubrication and protection and it performs well at low temps.

One thing about hydraulic systems is you can use just about anything as the hydraulic system is pretty easy on oil. It don't get very hot and there isn't combustion by-products entering the system. If you used a synthetic you would probably never need to change it as long as it remains clean or you can filter it. Cat recommends an API CH-4, CG-4, CF-4 or CF engine oil if you don't use Cat oils. Most hydraulic systems have pretty much the same requirement for oil as long as there isn't friction material in the system such as clutch material or brakes. These require special oils with friction modificators. Here is a list of recommended oil viscosities for hydraulic systems.

SAE 0W20  -40F to 104F or -40C to 40C
SAE 0W30  -40F to 104F or -40C to 40C
SAE 5W30  -22F to 104F or -30C to 40C
SAE 5W40  -22F to 104F or -30C to 40C

SAE 10W  -4F to 104F or -20C to 40C
SAE 30W  50F to 122F or 10C to 50C

SAE 10W-30  -4F to 104F or -20C to 40C
SAE 15W-40  5F to 122C or -15C to 50C

CAT MTO -13F to 104F or -25C to 40C

If you want some pretty good info on oils and machine fluids in general go to this site and download the Machine Fluids Recommendations Guide.
Fluids Guide[/u]

Dat 5W30 would be good for you MN_Boy cause it will go down to -22 giving you a 2 degree margin. Bad thing though is you'll have to stop when it gets to 104

For heating a magnetic heater would work well if your tank is iron or steel.

Good Luck

Mark

[Frickman]

Thanks for the info Mark. I usually just use the euipment manufacturer's own brand of hydraulic oil in their equipment, mostly John Deere and Ford. I'm happy to find out that one thing I've been doing is OK. A couple of our machines have dipsticks that are very hard to read, the clear oil is hard to see. Every once in a while when adding fluid I'll put a quart of ATF in so it dyes the fluid red. The oil level shows up real well then. I guess it would thin the Hydraulic oil some, but it takes so little ATF that I figured the affect was neglible. Thanks again for the info.