Hydrogenator fuel saver

[woodzy88]

Hi guys

I bought a Hydrogenator from the states and fitted it to my 2002 Izusu npr 450 truck i use for delivering firewood.
Before fitting I was using 18litres to do 100km and after fitting I have come down to 14 litres per 100 kms.
This is a simple device but must be set up right . You need a device to keep the amperage draw low otherwise you get thermal runaway and boil all the water away in a short time. This is not a fuel replacement but helps the fuel you are using to burn completly and if set up correctly is better for your engine . Ive read many testimonials on vehicals acheiving 50% or better fuel savings . The company I purchase my Hydrogenator off gauranteed 25% saving.
I intended to run all my plant on this system , just waiting for and amperage controller and want to do further testing on my truck first. The power increase is noticable and the diesel enginge runs cooler and quieter .
I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has run and excavator on this system.

Cheers Doug

[Kansas]

Could you explain further how this works?

[woodzy88]

I see there are other articles on ff about the use of hho. There seems to be those that say it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than the gain. I dont believe that from the expreience Ive had and I only draw 6 amps and get more power better fuel economy and the cost is minimal.
The unit Im using is a 24volt model . The only difference between  a 24v and a12v is the solenoid to power it.
The unit has 2 cells which both have 9 plates spaced 16th of an inch apart. The outside plates or end plates on each cell are positive with the middle plates on each cell negative . The plates are made of 316c low carbon stainless steel and have some holes drilled through them. There is a intake pipe linking the 2 cells from a container that holds about 500mls at the bottom and a exit pipe at the top that feed the gas produced back into the top of the container. This is called a dry cell system . Then a pipe from the top of the container takes the gas into a dryer which is like a filter and if its a petrol engine you also need a bubbler to prevent backflash . From there the gas is piped to the air intake of the engine before the turbo. The unit is wire up to the key circut so that it is only on when the engine is running. There is a device you can buy that controls the amperage to keep it at 6amps otherwise it just gets hotter and boils away the water. You put distilled water in container with a teaspoon of potassiam Hyroxide and the should last about 1200 kms .It is important that the system is clean and the plates are low carbon.
This is what ive done and it works , Ive had lots of sceptic saying its impossible but i think they went to university to long and dont know how to think outside the sqaure . My fuel bill for last season was around 80 thousand dollars so if I can save 10 to 20 % I would be happy. I beleive that its a matter of putting the right ingredients to gether and it works. Does for me !!!   

[Ianab]

I think where those gadgets got a bad name is the "run your car off water" crowd. That simply can not work.

Now injecting a bit of hydrogen into a diesel engine as a "catalyst" to improve efficiency is a different question. Maybe it would do something, but I don't know.

A better test would be to run a tank of fuel with it on, then off. Repeat and record the results. Don't change anything else. After 10 tanks of fuel you can see if there is a definite pattern.

Of course the real test would be to put the vehicle on a dyno, and measure both power output and fuel flow, with the hydrogen on and off. No one seem to arrange to do this for some reason?

Ian

[woodzy88]

sorry Ian but running cars on water is easy its just when you commercialise it and try and sell it as a fuel replacement
you get a visit from some bad dudes and told to back off , must not upset the fuel industry and rightly so imagine the fallout if we all could fill at the hose. Ive seen several cars and a scooter running on water with my own eyes but the people doing it dont want publicity and just do there thing. Once you try and run purely on hydrogen made from water it gets a bit dangerous if its not done right and when you store it potentially you have a bomb so making it as you use it is they safest option . I have a switch on my truck and can turn the system on and off . I have tested it over sevaral tanks of fuel and it definitly saves me 20% plus but I,m waiting for an amperage controller to come because as I have said I get thermal runaway an lose the water to heat .
I dont want to replace fuel , just want to save a bit to help the margins.
The other problem with testing any fuel saving device is when you drive you either use the extra power and go faster and save no fuel or because there is extra power you back of and save fuel. With my truck the power diference was noticible and I only had to touch the throttle with the unit on but had to use more with it off to do the same thing.
I dont know much about dynos but i would imagine it would depend on how the test was conducted as  to the result.
All the test ive seen on dynos have been on tractors and at full throttle so even with a device fitted would show more power but not fuel saving . I think this is where most fuel saving devices fail because the testing is done wrong. 

[pyrocasto]

I've always wanted to try one on my truck, and I've built several units for other reasons.  I may just go ahead and try and retrofit on up this winter. Glad to hear a good experience with one.

As for running solely on water there's really no such thing. You're using electricity to break the water apart to run an engine, therefore the batteries are really what it's runs on. It would be more efficient to just run an electric motor straight off them.

Here's a video of some hydrogen I made.

[woodzy88]

I hear what you are saying about the battries but what I dont understand is the vehicals i have seen with my own eyes using water as the only fuel source had more power than petrol vehicals and were run on the normal battery . Please explain to me why this is not efficient as it seemed to work fine and only required low amps to run. Am I missing something or are these poeple on to something that is outside the understanding of what we know. These poeple are not doing it for monetry gain other than saving fuel for them selves and I know they are not nutters. 

[pyrocasto]

The hydrogen they use has a huge power potential, and they could run the motors great with them. But were restricted by the law of energy at play here.

Lets say you have a battery with a 100 units of power in it in the form of electricity. You can take that power and use it in any way you want, but you will never have more power than you had at the start of 100. The method you want is simply the most efficient one.

Lets break down 2 examples.
Using the battery to create hydrogen is around a 70% efficient process at best. That means you will put in 100 units of electric power, and get out 70 units of power in the form of hydrogen/oxygen. The 30 units gone is wasted in the form of heat mostly. Now you have 70 units of hydrogen you want to run through an engine, which is less than 50% efficient. This takes your 70 units of hydrogen power, and turns it into 35 units of mechanical power(hp at the wheel).

If you take that same battery, and plug an electric motor into it, which run 80-95% efficient, you end up with 80-95 units of mechanical power.

So if the battery was large enough for 100 hp for one hour:
You would get around 35hp for one hour with hydrogen and an engine.
You would get around 80-95hp for one hour with an electric motor.

Since you cant run a vehicle on water without the batteries, the batteries are really what the vehicles are running off of. It's mostly done for shear fun in my opinion.


Sorry to get off on the rant, and if I was confusing, I just hear of people with their "water cars" on news channels and it's misleading. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with the Hydrogenerator as it's been something in the back of my mind for years, but I've been skeptical. I'm gonna try and get something rigged up, and heck, maybe the old mill motor could run better with this setup. Have you ever had a backfire through the intake during startup?

[woodzy88]

No I havent had a backfire and thats why you run a bubbler in the line . What I dont understand is the cars I saw running on water ran fine and normal and there was no adverse affect to the battery . The alternator seemed sufficiant to run the power source and they didnt have to pay for fuel so please explain what im missing it seems very efficent to me.
The system Im using only draws 6amps but the problem is as it heats up it will draw more amps.
I have a wizz kid making a device that drops the voltage which keeps the amps constant.
This has been done before and works fine.
The other thing that has to be done is run a dryer in the feed line to dry the gas which gives the best power.
There is a guy running a V8 ford totaly on hydrogen and it runs fine so I struggle to see how this is a gimick.
Please correct me if Im missing something as Im keen to knock some money of my fuel bills.
I allso run some Magnets on my vehicals ,an my 20ton excavator dropped 2 litres an hour.
I get mechanics and others telling me its not possible but I took proper fuel readings over a month of solid work before installing, then worked it with them for a month, then did readings for another month and that was the result.

 

[pyrocasto]

And people still use witching sticks to locate water for wells. I say if it seems to work, then keep on doin it. 
The voltage drop is a good idea, and I'll probably have to rig up something similar as well. I've heard of the fuel heaters too. I really want to get this project going soon. Hope I can find the time.

What I'm trying to say about water is it's not a fuel. You have to break down the water to make fuel. It requires more power to make the hydrogen than you get out of it. You simply can not break down water, run an engine on the hydrogen, that turns an alternator, that recharges the same battery. It's like putting water through a water wheel to generate electricity, then using the power to pump it back up again. It's called perpetual motion or over unity. If that was possible everything would run forever on water, since when you burn hydrogen it just turns back into water.

Boosting the efficiency of a gas engine with some hydrogen could make it more efficient. Running straight off water is currently impossible.

[zopi]

Hey...divining rods work...I used to use them to find underground utilites...pretty accurately too...have not done it in years though...
The hydrogen system intrest me...must do research.

Heh...occupy oil industry.

[ely]

i have a friend here that is a few years older than me. he built his own system , i am assuming , like the hydrogenator. it was pretty elaborate from what i recall... it worked on his car a 90 something chevy berretta. he had a 23mpg before and about a 45mpg after he installed it.

the thing looked like a kid set up a chemistry set in his back seat though, and my friend had to explain the set up to more than a few law enforcement officers. apparently they thought he was making meth.

he took it out when he decided he may develope a leak inside the car with him.

[pyrocasto]

I always wanted to put some solar panels(small ones) on the roof also for hydrogen. It would be great for adding a tiny boost without taking from the engine. It would also help me not kill my battery during my wrong doings/experiments. 

[WH_Conley]

I grew up around old timers that would "witch" a well. Back in the spring the local electric company had a crew come in and set some new anchors . I told them there was a water line running through where they wanted to drill. One guy took 2 pieces of copper wire and located the line. Needless to say I was skeptical, I didn't say anything til they left, I figured they just got lucky. Well, the guy had put down a stake where he said the line was. The more I thought about it the more skeptical I got. I couldn't stand it any longer and went got a shovel. Sure enough, he was dead on, plastic pipe. I am not going to swear by it, not gonna laugh any more either.

[woodzy88]

i have a friend here that is a few years older than me. he built his own system , i am assuming , like the hydrogenator. it was pretty elaborate from what i recall... it worked on his car a 90 something chevy berretta. he had a 23mpg before and about a 45mpg after he installed it.

the thing looked like a kid set up a chemistry set in his back seat though, and my friend had to explain the set up to more than a few law enforcement officers. apparently they thought he was making meth.

he took it out when he decided he may develope a leak inside the car with him.

Hi the system I run is a small compact unit and can be hidden in the engine compartment. I think from the testing I have done and the research ive done is that it take a lot less gas to run an engine than some would think if it is done correctly.
Ive been talking to a man in N Z who has got a Peugeot car 1.7 litre diesel engine. The car was doing close to 1000 km per tank before he started working on improving the fuel economy . He did a number of things with hydrogen , magnets, and fuel heaters and some fine tuning and got up to 1900km per tank.

[woodzy88]

And people still use witching sticks to locate water for wells. I say if it seems to work, then keep on doin it. 
The voltage drop is a good idea, and I'll probably have to rig up something similar as well. I've heard of the fuel heaters too. I really want to get this project going soon. Hope I can find the time.

What I'm trying to say about water is it's not a fuel. You have to break down the water to make fuel. It requires more power to make the hydrogen than you get out of it. You simply can not break down water, run an engine on the hydrogen, that turns an alternator, that recharges the same battery. It's like putting water through a water wheel to generate electricity, then using the power to pump it back up again. It's called perpetual motion or over unity. If that was possible everything would run forever on water, since when you burn hydrogen it just turns back into water.

Boosting the efficiency of a gas engine with some hydrogen could make it more efficient. Running straight off water is currently impossible.

Are you sure it takes more power to breakdown the water ? I believe there are methods out there that require very little power and produce enough gas to run an engine properly , Its all to do with the materials used and getting the right setup and electronics.
But then Im only a old sawmiller so maybe ive got it wrong

[Ianab]

Are you sure it takes more power to breakdown the water ?

99.9999% sure.

If you can break water apart into Hydrogen and Oxygen, using less energy than you can generate by burning them again, then you have a perpetual motion machine, and everything thing that the smartest thinkers in the last 200 years have theorised, is wrong.

It would solve the worlds energy problems, but it goes against everything that we understand about how the universe works.

Now this isn't to say you can't run a vehicle on Hydrogen, that's simple enough, once you make enough hydrogen. And it's not saying that injecting a bit of hydrogen into an engine wont increase it's efficiency, especially in certain situations like idle when the engine is very inefficient anyway. But running an engine on hydrogen generated from water that's being split using energy from the engine, not going to happen without some "magic".

Ian

[woodzy88]

Ok then I will have to ask these guys what they did or how they fooled me because it looked to me that they done it,but maybe not.
Have you tried it ? 
I know you can produce a lot of gas with very little power and ive seen other weird things that the experts say cant work that seemed to be working but maybe it is all an illusion and Im just being fooled , Bumbull bees shouldn't be able to fly according to the experts but I'm sure Ive seen one or two wizzing past well maybe wizz is a bit strong but they were definitly airborne . 

[Ianab]

It's the amount of hydrogen that's the issue.

Say a 1L engine, running at 4,000 rpm.. That's sucking in ~2,000L of air per minute. Assuming you need to add 10% hydrogen gas to get a good fuel / air mix, that's 200L, a minute, to keep the engine running (at full power).  How much power to generate 200l of hydrogen per minute? I haven't looked it up, but I bet it's a lot.

So you can generate hydrogen, but simply not enough, without some sleight of hand. Like a heavy duty battery. Would allow the engine to run for a while, to "prove" it was working. But after an hour the battery is flat, and things run down.

Ian

[pyrocasto]

Woodzy, I can tell you from experience it takes a ton of power to generate a good amount of Hydrogen. The units I use to make hydrogen like in the ballon video are run off a car battery. I can fill the ballon up in less than a minute(3-4liters), but I would kill the battery in about 10 minutes doing it. I've had my jumper cables so hot they would burn you. 

The heat created in the cables and in the water, are the easiest sign that power is being lost/wasted.

I wonder if a resistor some some kind could be used to limit amperage for the booster. Like a 60 watt light bulb in line to limit it down to 5 amps or something. Probably wasteful.

[woodzy88]

I have seen other methods of seperating hydrogen from water using frequencies and one guy had a system that once he got it going then it took very little power to keep it going. I hear what you guys are saying and you are correct in your observations but I believe there are things that other people have done that would produce a lot of gas using less power than you may think. For example I started expirementing with two rods in a glass jar hooked up to a old battery charger that had a amperage controller, it produced a bit of gas at 10amps and you could light the bubbles in a glass of water . When I got my hydrogentor at 6amps it produce 10 times the gas and was just a fast constant stream of bubbles . All I need is the amperage controller to make mine work properly.
The french build a complete system for cars the has all the electronics and can even top up the water automaticly when needed , it doesnt run the car totally on  hho but they record up to 60% savings. Its rather expensive tho.
The outfit I bought my system off couldnt build enough units to meet demand and I waited 10 weeks for mine.
I couldnt find one negative testimonial on them .
 

[Ron Wenrich]

I've used one of these types of units on two different trucks.  They didn't work on either one.  We put on a gauge that measures mpg on both of the trucks, and the fuel savings weren't there. 

What generally happens is someone puts one of these devices on, then alters their driving habits.  They don't drive as fast, or they don't take off as quickly, etc.  That gives the fuel savings.  I can get 10% better gas mileage than my wife does in the same car.  Has nothing to do with fuel, just the driver and techniques.

My truck is getting about 20% better gas mileage now than it did when new.  In that time, they added 10% ethanol to the blend, which should yield lower mileage.  I did change some driving habits in that time.

[jueston]

Are you sure it takes more power to breakdown the water ?

99.9999% sure.

I am 100% sure you can’t get more energy in the form of hydrogen out of the water then you put in. but there are ways to increase efficiency, I have heard of using additives to make it easier to get the hydrogen out. A really cheap and simple example would be salt, adding salt to the water increases conductivity and reduces the amount of energy lost to heat. That doesn’t change very much in the big picture, but I know there are lots of other additives specifically designed for this which increase productivity a lot.