Looking for a status from the veteran urban log recovery folks

[DR_Buck]

    I am getting old   

 

[metalspinner]

Marc,

The last posts by mike, ironwood and twelsh are great summaries of the problem.  Without gearing up completely for every process and having the training and experience neccesary to safely complete each job, you will be just the middleman.

I am more in Mike's camp and have stacks and stacks of sawn lumber that I will never use in my lifetime  The handling of the lumber is where I get burdened down with time. I have no handling equipment, so everything gets handled off the saw, onto the trailer, into the stack.  That's three times per board.  If we saw for two days, I run out of trailers and stack on the ground. That's another handling of the board. My back is aching just thinking about it.

The tree services I've had the most luck with are the small pickup truck guys.  They cannot handle the big logs and appreciate me getting them out of there.  But then they see how I do it with my pickup truck, trailer and winch and set themselves up to do it.  I never hear from them again.

Over the years I have handed out countless cards for free log removal, but rarely do I get a call back from the pros.  Most of my logs are ones I happen across driving around town and just knocking on the door. I have an army of people on the lookout, too - the mailman, UPS driver, friends, etc.

  What would you estimate the time and effort in man hours to be in cleaning up the log portion of a tree?

From driving up to the log and having it on the trailer takes me about 20 minutes per log.  That assumes I can pull next to it. The length and diameter doesn't ussually matter.  If the log needs to be staged, who knows??? Too many variables.  You can look in my gallery and see plenty of different sized logs and circumstances I have been in and the way I load the trailer.  But when it's time to load - 20 minutes.  If the logs are small enough to squeeze a few on the trailer, then the time comes down just a bit because of reduced set up time. Then another 20 minutes to bind everything down and pack up the truck for the road.

Now someone like twelsh with his brigade of equipment will be totally different.

Every minute of work you do free takes a minute of payed work from the tree service.  That's why they will not call me.  It reduces the amount of money on their contract with the homeowner. If the homeowner knows he does not have to pay for full cleanup, then they will not listen to the tree service's sales pitch.

Another problem I have encountered when working with the tree service is that the log needs to be gone NOW.  If they are not payed until the log is out of the yard, they don't want to wait for you to figure out when you will be there.  And can you afford to stand around all morning or afternoon at the job sight waiting on them to complete the job?  If you are subcontracted by the tree service to remove logs they are payed to remove, how does that effect their insurance? What if you run over a sprinkler head in the yard, or roll a log into the corner of a shed, or the unthinkable happens?  Those are the things on the tree service guy's mind.

There is a place for guys like us.  It's just not on a grand scale.

Fortunately, I am not trying to make a living with it. But, I have a mountain of wood at my disposal, the neighbors have yet to complain about it, my back muscles get a nice workout several times a year, the waste gives me enough firewood to burn each year plus some to give away, and I never have to pay retail for hardwoods again.

With all that said, where there's a will there's a way. I look forward to learning how you traverse through your idea and make it happen.

[mikeb1079]

a couple more thoughts on this subject and i'm compelled to comment because i thought along the same lines as you do when i first started this:

1.  working with tree services/municipalities to pick up logs from a jobsite in my experience doesn't work.  why?  because typically when they are doing a job they need the tree removed NOW, not in a couple hours when you get off work.  in your retired then maybe you could work it out but it's not as easy as it sounds.  also, many of the best trees/logs simply cannot be brought down in 8, 10, or 12' sections.  i've seen many beautiful straight trees with perfect sawlog trunks chunked up into 2' pieces because neither i nor the tree service owns a crane, and they can't be dropped on someone's lawn/driveway/etc and even if they were you can't skid em out!    (and log arches ain't gonna handle a 30" by 10' chunk of white oak)

2.  perhaps rethink your attitude towards turning logs into firewood.  i thought exactly as you do now and regarded it as wasteful/foolish/etc.  in reality, there's nothing wrong with using a renewable resource to heat our homes.  in many cases considering the quality of the logs and the amount of fossil fueled effort it takes to turn them into lumber using them as fuel makes the most sense.  while i totally agree that landfilling is a shame, utilizing most logs for firewood ain't really a bad thing.

i really don't mean to be negative and hope i don't come across as such it's just that i was very much in the same boat as you a few years back and my experiences have led me make these observations.
cheers
mb

[T Welsh]

Marc, don,t get frustrated,if you have an idea that is strong enough to start asking question about it,KEEP at it and get educated before making the next step,s. What you are thinking of doing is admirable,but there is a lot of work,marketing,wasted trips to look at sites where logs are,insurances(oh yes you have to have at least a million in liability to get near a township or city jobsite),storage and work areas,at least a truck and trailer ect.metalspinner and mikeb, are right on the money and this is the real world.
There are lots of ways to recycle wood or reuse it, a lot of ways to market it too! The green buzz word,is nothing new to the people on this forum,for the most part they have been doing it for a life time. Good luck, Tim

[zopi]

In regards the firewood comment above, something we recently unearthed, is that burning firewood is nearly carbon neutral...consider how much oxygen the tree has converted during its life, and how much carbon dioxide is given off by burning the firewood out of it...
I have taken the attitude of, if it is worth sawing, saw it...if it is firewood...burn it...recover the slabs for kindling and mulch the tops..pulled some really nice wood out of a great big bradford pear tree the other day...gorgeous turning blanks..except for the one which tried to kill me when the hinge broke...I am going to enjoy splitting that one and feeding the stove with it...
Point is, you cannot make the material what it is not..physically or economically...any way you still get to keep it ou of the landfill.

[Stephen1]

Great conversation here for sure, I have just spent the last month cutting and selling and moving all the wood I have salvaged over the last 3 years. I bought lt40h 5 weeks ago and put 70  plus hrs on it and I have a real job.
I advertised on Kijiji trying to sell the wood as lumber, and firewood slabs, and as table slabs.
Here is what I discovered in my endeavour which is very similar to what everyone has said.
The lumber will not sell unless kiln dried, I have a few thousand bd ft of white and red, oak, maple, silver, norway, elm, and walnut, that did not sell,  so I have taken 2000 bd ft of walnut branches to to the local kiln to be turned into flooring, she also has a shaper to 6 side my wood. as some of you can imagine it was a huge amount of work to turn branches that were any where from 2 ft to 10 ft in length into 3-4-5 in  wide lumber.
The only wood I could sell was to slab any logs into as wide as my saw would allow wich is 28 inches, we did slab some bigger logs 30-45 inches with a chain saw mill. Some sold, not as many as I would have liked, but we did sell.
I had over 200 emails to my add and only 12 people bought wood. Some of these emails had 20 plus replys back and forth, and then nothing, I think they just wanted someone to email them, they were lonely , I guess
The walnut comes from buddy that hunts down people that want the walnuts removed, and he has tree service guy with a pick up that he pays to drop the tree, and then he slabs them on site, calls me to help remove the slab, sometinmes we have hired a crane they are so big, and I will also take any branches that we think we can turn into ART and flooring.
As you can imagine with 70 hrs on the mill, I had a lot of time to think about where I was going with this business.
 The same spot that everyone has said so far, except you need to think of this urban green wood as art, table slabs and large ones for sure, 30 plus inches wide, 40 is better is really the only way to make money, and i am not sure you can make it at that. You need big equipment to move these big logs to get the big slabs out of them.
I sold some red oak character slabs 42 in wide for 600 a piece but you do not get many of them.
I have 3 white oak slabs 44 inches x 13 ft that I tried to sell for 1000 and 1500 that people loved but will not part with that kind of money, and as one guy said, how do I get it home to work on it. One of them will make a nice table for my cottage , because I have some equipment to move it.
There is my 5 cents on the subject

[woodmills1]

don't leave firewood out of your model

most yard trees are not good enough for any thing better

[Marc Thornton]

Thanks for continuing to talk this through.  I definitely feel more educated about all of this and think it is just making me line everything up better before jumping in with both feet. 

I feel like I need almost a full years operating capital to ensure that I have the time to establish the market.  There is no way I am ruling anything out of the equation including firewood, wood chip mulch, and many others.  I definitely want to be more creative than just grade lumber, i have no misconceptions about how much of the wood can be converted to high value items.  I believe I have a pretty exhaustive list of products that can be made out of urban logs. 

I think the biggest thing all of your discussion has done is modifying my plan to acquire some of the equipment first, like a crane truck to bring logs in and prove that I can actually acquire the logs, the obvious first hurdle.  Without the logs, there is no worry about products or marketing the products.  If I can spend 2-3 months getting a starting stash of logs, making the connections with tree services and taking that time to get the word out before making the big jump.  Like everyone has said, starting as a hobby or weekend deal then before moving to a full time gig. 

I definitely feel it is a long road and the firstyear or two or three might be very difficult.  I believe in what i am loking at doung which helps a lot.  I just want to make sure it can work before i put my whole self into it.  I see the place for this and see the benefit to the community and the overall forest resource.  On top of that, the value of spreading conservation, craftsmanship, and wood art are at my core so much so that I would really enjoy if the endeavor could support something like the urban tree forge in the Pittsburgh area at some point.

Thanks so much for all of your time and thoughts into this.   

Marc.

P.S.  I would really like to hear from Darren or Kelvin if they are still around too to see how they are surviving. 

[woodmills1]

I started in 86   pick up truck and stihl farmboss 045

no start up or capital, but back then a full time job and insurance

[5quarter]

Some very good advice you're getting here...for what it's worth, I'll add a few thoughts.

    Your main goal is to salvage good timber otherwise destined for the landfill. Forget business models...There is no realistic business model on the planet (For reasons stated previously) that would not end in bankruptcy for you. you want to salvage urban timber...ok. Then scare up some basic equipment (trailer, cables chains, a saw etc...) and go get some. Once you have a few decent logs at your place, decide how you could use them. do you have a talent for woodworking? if so, maybe after they're sawn and dried you can make some interesting things that you can either use or sell at a modest profit. remember that drying wood takes time so what ever you have cut today will not be ready for roughly a year. so your biggest investment the first year is going to your spare time; making contacts, getting your logs sawn and of course picking up logs. during that year, save up to buy a used saw. A year from now, if you still are interested, go buy the saw. if not, you haven't lost much. once you have a saw and know some people in the tree biz and have a small stock of good lumber, you have a lot of options. By then you will have a much better idea of what it is you would like to do. as others have said, you must diversify if for no other reason than to keep buying more tools and equipment. after a few years, you may be in a position think about a business model that is actually viable. in the meantime, get out there and rescue some of that timber and by all means, keep your day job. Don't be hasty...and don't be discouraged. TWelsh is exceptional in the tree service biz in that he pursues all the revenue souces the trees offer. most are 1-3 man outfits that would love nothing better than someone like yourself doing a portion of their work for free. Member Daren has never paid for a single log in his life, but he has a huge amount of lumber that is his inventory for the wide variety of things he produces and sells.
www.nelsonwoodworks.com
   You will always be able to sell a little lumber here and there, but really, the highest value of wood is always in the objects that people use. Do not look to lumber sales as a viable way to make $$. and by all means do not think in terms of months...think in years.

Best of luck
   

[Kansas]

All good advice, but there is one more thing to think about I didn't see mentioned here. We get several calls a day from people wanting us to take trees down in their yard. For some, they have priced what tree removal will cost and say "you can just take it if you take it down" to wanting to finance the tree removal by selling me the log. It can be problematic for a tree company not to immediately to remove the tree. And for a number of home owners, they are going to get suspicious if they see logs being removed. It also puts the tree trimmer in a bad position. If he leaves it somewhere where you tear the yard up getting it out, he will take the blame for it. If you take the log he might well get a phone call from an irate customer who just got his bill, wanting to know how much he sold that log for. That goes for cities too. I have a tree trimmer that occasionally hauls in a few logs, either to have us cut them up for him, or sell to us or hold them for the walnut buyer to come in if they are walnut. He does know what makes a decent log. He logged one off the city right of way that was a very nice walnut. In the end, he had to cut it up for firewood because people in the city complained that he was making money off the taxpayer's dime. The city wouldn't let him haul it off in log form.

[zopi]

That is one thing that I have dealt with in tree service, I generally let it be known ahead of time that I own a mill, and that their wood will be recycled into lumber or firewood, and this is usually met with enthusiasm...people like to recycle...I have at times cut a little off my estimate fir folks who really cannot afford the service, by buying their logs...not because I needed to, but brcause it was the right thing to do, and I am always up front about it...some have bought lumber from me out of thier trees, just because thst is a pretty cool thing to do...
Most folks are just hapoy that the wood is not wasted...

[5quarter]

Kansas...That is a very good point about dealing with landowners perceptions. I have several friends who own tree services that provide me with some pretty nice logs, but I always talk with the landowner before I do anything. My friends good reputation is on the line as I am generally the last person the landowner sees regarding the removal. I treat them with every courtesy and take care to damage nothing and clean up before I leave. I make sure I get a handshake and a smile from every landowner. If you are able to work with a tree service, Treat the landowner like they are your client. you not only strengthen your own reputation but the reputation of the tree service, which is every bit as important.

[Al_Smith]

 I don't own a tree service nor do I work for a tree sevice .Having said that I'm closely in contact with one and here's what I can say .

Most times the services will only be interested in giving away the less desirable wood such as cottonwood ,soft maple ,linden etc .Poor quality firewood

The better varieties such as hickory ,oak,black locust etc  many will sell for firewood in the off season for around 160 a cord .Now to somebody around a large metro area like Philly that might not sound like much .However say 3-4 cords a week or so keeps beans on these guys table when work is slack and the wolf is howling at the door .

You got to watch urban trees with a mill because most of them have hidden treaures like nails ,dog chains and all kinds of scape metal that just plays havoc with a bandsaw blade if you try to salvage the lumber .

[Tdawg]

Hey Marc,

You mentioned that you are prepared to look at all avenues-lumber, firewood, mulch, etc. I think you should talk to some local clearing and grubbing companies. As stated, there are a lot of variables in dealing with tree services. The principle behind clearing and grubbing is simple...get rid of the trees. They would much rather bring you a load than pay tipping fees at the landfill. In my experience, you get a lot of junk that is only good for chipping but you also get the good stuff-you have to take the good with the bad. I have taken a 20 yard load of boughs and roots followed a little later by a tri-axle load of 36"x12' hardwood sawlogs. The thing is, you don't need a yard full of equipment for picking up and hauling the wood, it is delivered to you (for free). You can then process it or recycle it as you see fit.

[~rf~]

This is a wonderful thread!! I have been contemplating this very subject for over a year now. It's great to hear feedback from experienced urban sawyers and foresters. In discussions with a few people, it seems that it would mainly be a niche market catering to those people with the same green mentality and regional woodworkers looking for material. The one thing I have come to realize .... people with money will spend money for a product that is marketed to their desire. I've witnessed it first hand countless times.

I look forward to reading more in the forum and continuing my education.

To all the life long woodsmen......Thanks for all the knowledge and info

[shelbycharger400]

like above said..
If you cant use some or any of the byproducts, your up a creek
I built my one mill, still working on the issues.   I will sell some stuff to pay for a small portion of gas involved.  My first foremost plan is to cut stock for my kitchen remodel. Cabinets and flooring ect.  I had a general disgust with whats at the lumber yard, I can cut material, and use the ones i want, sell the others, and what waste i have in wood chunks goes up the chimney, some boards for various things around the house, and some to sell, the sawdust to the compost site.   i have very little on heavy equipment.   Many days go by when i see 4 to 8 ft long logs, of all kinds from firewood up to 3 ft dia , fresh dumped off at the compost site..       some are junk,   some are solid.   i have collected 2 + ft dia ash logs... i had to cut them in half just so i could load them.     most of it will go to firewood as they have sat for 2 years now.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

I work with four tree services and a large land clearing company to acquire logs. Two services are of the pickup truck variety and two a good size running multiple crews. The clearing outfit is huge and could easily supply all my needs but they are only practical if they are working close by. I don't expect to get something for nothing so I have an agreement with them that seems fair to all parties involved. First they bring me the logs. I don't have the time to chase them down in a timely manner and the larger operations have the means to move them ( grapple truck ). I do the sawing ,drying, planing and marketing. I sell my lumber for no more than half the price a woodworker would pay retail, sometimes cheaper. When all is said and done we divide the proceeds. The percentages vary but I always get at least half. A poor quality common species I will take much more just to recover the cost. The tree service makes some money on something they were going to pitch with little expense to them ( they are located about a mile from my mill so transport isn't much ). The land clearing outfit will give me anything I want but I have to show up with my trailer. I usually tip the loader. Trees from the land clearing outfit are usually of good to fantastic quality as opposed to the tree services. I sell everything I saw. Some brings a good price and some not so much, but it is always better than firewood prices. There are plenty of woodworkers out there that cannot afford to spend mega bucks on wood for large projects but are tickled pink to get wood that would work for smaller projects at a great price.
I will do anything with wood to make a buck except firewood. I have found that you don't find the niche market, it finds you. You will have a customer that needs something you can supply and he tells his friends and so on. You probably would have never thought of that market by yourself.
One thing about working with trees services is the variety of species they encounter.Seems I have sawn one of everything that grows around here including some ornamentals just to see what it looks like. The weirder the wood the easier it is to sell .
I'm not getting rich doing this and I don't do this full time, maybe half my time is spent on this business and the other half is spent running a stable. One thing I am always careful of is to keep my overhead as low as possible. I have bought all my equipment used and waited until a real bargain showed up before buying. If some day things go belly up or I get too old to work I know in every case I can get more for my equipment than I paid for it.
Good luck with your endeavor and take it slow. It's taken me seven years to get this far and I'm still learning.