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Author Topic: Selling timber on shares????  (Read 3798 times)

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Offline 17821x

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Selling timber on shares????
« on: September 25, 2011, 08:48:04 am »
I'm a farmer from NE Iowa.   I have a 15 acre piece of land that I want to clearcut and convert to farmland.   This piece is less steep than most of the other ground I farm.   I've got other timber that I've used Foresters to help manage thinning sales of marked trees on in the past but have never clearcut anything before.  Another interesting part of this situation is that a major equipment manufacturer is willing to cut all trees with a prottype feller buncher for me for free.  80% of the trees are white Oak with the balance being red oak, cherry, hard maple, and hackberry.  Some of the white oaks are veneer quality.   I had a local logger look at the timber and on the 15 acres he estimates that there are 30,000 bf of saleable timber.   He is estimating the price at the landing to average $0.40 a bf.  His offer was that he would get 35% of the sale price for cutting up, skidding, and getting the bids.   My first thought is that seemed a little steep seeing as though the trees will be on the ground when he gets there and it is an easy piece to skid.  For that amount of wood and that price does that seem fair?  Never done anything like this before.  The guy seems like a nice guy and I don't want to waste the time of other loggers looking at it if this is a fair proposal.  What do you think?  Thanks.

Offline treefarm

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 08:51:35 am »
Will he be responsible for removing or chipping the slash?
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Offline madmari

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 08:58:18 am »
Thats $140 mbf to the logger. He has to market the wood, estimate it, skid and buck it. That's fair. He's taking the risk that the wood is sound and marketable.
Whoever stumps the land can deal with the slash more efficiently than the logger.

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Offline bill m

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 09:12:05 am »
15 acres of slash from a clear cut can be a big mess. Don't be afraid to get estimates from other loggers. If they know others are looking at it they may offer a better deal. You may be better off finding a logging outfit that does chipping also to deal with the slash. Whoever you go with make sure you have a signed contract with them outlining what they are responsible for and at what price/cost.
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Offline 17821x

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 09:29:21 am »
All of the logs big enough to be sawed will be sold to a mill.  He said he would take some of the smaller trees <12" for firewood.  I will have to deal with the remaining slash when I have the stumps removed.  There is only one logger that I know of with a chipper but we are not in a good market for chips.  He colors them and sells them for mulch.  There is so much stuff available that you have to pay him to chip on your property.

Offline treefarm

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 09:42:07 am »
I've been thinking about madmari's response about the slash. My wife and I cleared about four acres here, sold the timber and paid a trucker to get it to the buyer(s). We stacked and burned the slash as we went. The money from the timber paid for the stumping. Where 17821x is probably going to be putting serious aggi equipment on the land, those stumps most likely can't be buried, like we did here. Whether you use multiple, small & shallow bury pits or a few large deep ones, you eventually get sinkholes.  (We tried both). They'll probably have to be pushed off into a heap in some out of the way corner or trucked off. Chipping slash and tops during skidding, usually at the landing is common here, with all the wood fired power plants around New England. If that was available out there, it would be a lot faster and cleaner, and may leave some money leftover for the stumping, with everything already on the ground for free?

Sorry 17821x-just saw your post about chipping out there. I posted anyway for the stumping aspect. I have seen jobs out here where someone with a dozer would push the slash into big piles and burn it, but that was when the EPA was in it's infancy-that may not be an option now.

tom
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 09:44:40 am »
From all reports, it is not a good time to sell your timber at all, especially if you have some higher grade, and veneer grade trees.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2011, 10:09:05 am »
2 Mbf/acre?  Must be pretty small timber.  But, you said you had veneer quality timber, which leads me to believe that you have some fairly decent sized material.  That doesn't sound like a very good yield.

Definitely get a second opinion.  Markets aren't strong which would make me want to wait until they recover, which might take a few years.  That would yield a pretty good return on your standing timber over the next few years.  Depends on how bad you want the farmland.   
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Offline 17821x

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2011, 10:19:15 am »
I'm guessing his estimate is conservative on the 2 mbf per acre.  There are quite a few 30" + white oaks that have a minimum of 40' of log.   Working on a percentage basis the more there is the more both of us benefit.  I was just curious what you thought of the 35% if the trees will already be down.   The slash and stumps can be burnt.   Would like to see it be used for something and will try and find a use, chips or firewood, but burning is common here.

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2011, 10:38:43 am »
Seems high for what has veneer grade logs.  Get another opinion, from a forester.
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Offline madmari

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 11:00:59 am »
Maybe the outfit with the prototype harvester will do the whole job; they have the equipment apparently. Laying trees down is the cheap part. Moving the wood, limbing, marketing, bucking and stumping takes time and money. I think the logger is in the ballpark, but thats at $400 mbf for the wood.
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 07:28:20 am »
17821x,welcome to the forum. I would be Leary of having someone else cutting down the trees and someone else skidding. What I mean is not 2 guys working together for months, or years. Especially with a prototype feller buncher. Would it come with a GOOD operator or someone just learning or someone that thinks,That don't matter. He may not lay them down the way the skidding guy would like. May make alot more work for him. Than it would all cost you more. Don't want those veneer logs to turn into sawlogs.
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Offline BBTom

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 08:02:21 am »
He might be in the ballpark, but 35% around here normally includes the cutting
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Offline Kansas

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 08:50:16 am »
Here is what I would be leery about. That machine that is going to cut them down. You need to cut veneer logs in a special way to not split them. Especially a prototype machine. Quite frankly, they need to be properly cut down. And if there are walnut, you can triple down on that. The firewood and regular logs, that is different. But the logger needs to be there when they take out the regular logs to make sure they are doing it properly.

Two other things. One is that timber is not worth that much these days, as Jeff pointed out. But..with 7 buck corn, its far more valuable as farm ground, if you think it will make good ground. I forget what Norm talked about farmland bringing in Iowa per acre, but it was flat scary.

The other is that its impossible to tell if this logger is giving you a fair deal without due diligence. Talk to your neighbors and see if they have used him before. On a hardwood salvage job, we never guess what value the timber is, because you are at the mercy of those that take the timber down. Down here, most dozer operators prefer to take down trees using the tops for leverage. It depends on the dozer operator. (or excavator operator). Just make sure everyone is on the same page. The one taking the stumps out needs to be involved in this before anyone fires up a chainsaw or machine to cut them down.

Offline snowstorm

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 05:33:37 pm »
i dont see any value in having [ must be cat or deere cut the wood] how long will it sit on the ground in warm weather? find a logger that you know and trust you dont need a forester. as far as stumping hire an excavator the bigger the better you will save a lot more dirt than using a dozer and cut the stumps as low as you can.

Offline paul case

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 06:30:37 pm »
here in my neck of the woods, on grade logs the logger(doing all the work) gets between 40% and 50%. i have never heard of anyone planning on cutting down trees and then digging up the stumps. that tree is what the operator usually used to lever the stump out with and get most of the dirt off the stump with.
be careful when dealing with more than 1 company doing the logging, cutting or dozing. they are likely to tell you if 1 of them had done it all then it would have took less time and messed things up less.

it dont hurt to get quotes from serveral different operators and make sure they know what you are wanting up front.  pc
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 07:45:10 pm »
the more wood ya leave on the stump the bigger hole it will take to bury them. if you bury them

Offline muellerlogging

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Re: Selling timber on shares????
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 08:23:58 pm »
i know a very trust worthy logger from bernard iowa you might want to give him a call his name is dave odell. tell me if u want his number