Generating electricity from wood waste

[Kansas]

First of all, maybe this has been extensively covered. I couldn't find anything specific in my searches on the forum. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place.

I got a newsletter from the Kansas Forest Service that had a section in it about using wood waste for heat, and also electricity. Seems they have contacts for consulting and getting it done, both themselves and engineers. . I called today and got a call back this afternoon, with a meeting set up Monday. I have no idea if it will be feasible. But here is our situation. We are already going to use our gasification unit for heat, but I'm wondering about the electric side of things.

We currently are paying about 1000 a month in electric costs between the two places. When we move to the other place, we are moving from a regular energy company to an REA company. I know the costs will go up. Plus a bit more equipment going in, such as a wood waste grinder. Operating at peak demand is killing us, but we really can't stop it right now.   My guess is our electric costs will be up around 18000 to 20000 a year. We just got our wood gasification unit, and I don't know if that could be set up to run a turbine (I assume steam) and do it cost effective.We could run that in the summertime, maybe winter as well.  We do have net metering in Kansas now. I was surprised; the local REA was actually supportive of the possible project, and may well attend the meeting Monday. I know nothing about what is involved, and just starting to do due diligence to figure it all out. I assume some people on here have checked into it. Is it feasible? Obviously fuel is not an issue. I would prefer to use dropoffs and side slabs rather than chip and use those. Any comments are appreciated.

[red oaks lumber]

a few years back i looked at generating my own elec. and selling the excess back to the power com. upon further searching i found in wisconsin that rea or coop's don't have to buy back any electricty. my advice to you  talk to someone at the public service commison they should be able to tell you about the letter of the law.if all that looks good, ya go for it

[Larry]

Northwest Missouri University (Maryville, Mo.) has been active in the cogeneration field for some 30 years.  They used to buy wood waste from local sawmills...maybe they still do.  Since I no longer live up there I haven’t kept up on what there doing. 

A quick google turned up this link that may be of interest.

Utilization of Alternative Fuels

Short excerpt from the link.

With fluctuating electrical energy prices, the university believes it is wise to expand its system to include the ability to generate electricity through non-hazardous, biodegradable waste. Northwest's vision is to establish a Graduate Applied Research Center in its Center of Innovation and Entrepreneurship to provide:

    A site for Northwest students to apply what they learn in the classroom.
    Serve as a demonstration facility where regional businesses and municipalities can  bring samples of their non-hazardous waste materials for evaluation.

Research will study future options such as small-scale electrical generation capacity. The generator might be powered by gasifying bio-fuels and then combusting those gases in a turbine.

They used to be quite proud of showing off there toys...for some reason I went through there plant on some kind of tour.

Might be worth a call to wrangle an invite.

[Al_Smith]

To be economical any generation of electric power has to done on a large scale .As such the power plant plus the generater should be ran as close to max power as possible  for the best economy .

These factors are why the power companies either get the extra power they need off the grid,use peaker generaters or sell the excess on the grid .It comes down to which works better for them during peak power or lesser demands on the system .They have a bank of computers and a zillion accountants that have it down to a science .

As far as waste wood generation a compnay called Hoge lumber in New Knoxville Ohio ,about 30 miles from me that operates a wood fired generater and supplies power for their plant plus sells the excess .This company is the largest supplier of bowling alley  maple in the world . They have a site ,you can Google it if you like .

[Ianab]

Yeah, the problem is to do it on a relatively small scale (at a sensible cost)

This is  a study done of the Waipa sawmill near Rotorua. But they have a 40MW boiler and use that to drive a 3.5MW steam turbine to generate power, then the steam goes to run the drying kilns. But at that level they generate all the power for a large mill, and have power left over to sell.

But that's an expensive sort of operation, a 40bar steam boiler has it's own issues. Not just something that you sit in the corner and forget about.

If you are generating wood gas it might be practical to run a conventional generator set with a large gas powered engine? Maybe research the generators they make to use Methane from Landfills as it would be a similar sort of setup.

Whether it going to be economic, I don't know?

Ian

[Kansas]

That is the problem as I see it. Economy of scale. Just not sure a smaller sawmill can do it. But then, not sure it can't. Especially with used equipment as cheap as it is these days.

[Ianab]

Yeah, I didn't say impossible, just tricky.

I'd be looking at what the guys with the wood burning trucks are doing and seeing if you could adapt that to a generator?
I know some medium size mills run from a diesel genset to avoid the line and peak charges. Although it costs more to generate power that way, if they had to pay excessive line charges and peak rates it can be a lot cheaper. Burning your own fuel should help.

Maybe set up a propane tank as a backup?

How much power are you talking?

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Mills here are complaining about rates, and they pay a lot less than I do per KWh. Some pulp mills even generate power or they would not be in operation. AV Cell in Nackawick uses enough juice to power the city of Fredericton, 56,000 residents. Will you have a good steady supply of hog fuel in enough volume for this? Hard to answer until you study if further I suppose.

[sprucebunny]

There are some gasifier power packs, now. Would one of them help
http://gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-genset-skids/

[Norm]

I don't know what your average wind speeds are for your area but have you thought about a wind generator. We have a local JD dealer that's selling a couple of different models. I'm waiting for a report back on those that have them for a year or so to see if they are feasible for our farm.

http://www.vanwall.com/wind-energy

[Kansas]

That gasification unit sure holds potential. That may be a better way to go than a steam fired turbine. I imagine we are fairly limited to how much electricity we can generate, simply because I don't know how much we can put back in the lines when we don't need it.

Norm, I checked into wind. I just can't see a financial payback. Not saying it wouldn't eventually pay for itself, but its a long process. When I talked to the guy at the REA, he flat said using the wood waste might well work, but solar and wind just don't work out well. That is why they had some interest in this project.

A couple of things that I have found looking around. Most of what I have found have been outside this country. But I'm still looking. I don't even know enough about all this yet to be dangerous. But I am beginning to get a rough idea about what I want. I think a gasification unit running a generator would be the best. And I would really like to use our Portage and Main gasification unit, if possible, or even have a second unit just dedicated to producing electricity. If we are at 18000 a year in electric costs, and all the free fuel we can use, it seems to have potential for making financial sense. The one thing I keep running into is most use chips instead of firewood. The Gek is a good example, but I don't know why you couldn't run that off of the gas on our unit. Chips would be fine if I was grinding pallets or dry wood waste, but that isn't what we are doing. We have thousands of cubic yards of wood waste that is dry and could be used all piled up. Why go to the expense of grinding it up? Might also kind of get the county fire marshal in a better mood.

I want to find a way to make this work. We got some MacGyver type guys at the mill that can figure out about anything.

[two tired]

i have often thought of the same thing, there is about 10 small mills in the area that have a problem getting rid of slabs, wood waste, especially with the dry conditions and the burn ban. would be great to put this resorce to good use.

[pineywoods]

I've spent a lot of time researching this subject. In most cases the payback on wind and solar is NEVER. Only makes sense in special cases. A wood fired boiler making steam to run a turbine is impractical for a small installation, for several reasons, some of them legal. The only practical applications I have found involve woodgas in one way or another. A woodgas generator driving a conventional internal combustion engine coupled to an electrical generator is do-able with back yard technology. Just look at the wood burning trucks of Ron, Paul_H, and Wayne Kieth. The devil is in the details. A charge of wood fuel is only good for and hour or so of running. Then you have to shut it down to add more wood. I did find an article detailing a very large woodgas plant that ran continuously. I think it was somewhere in Maylasia. Back in the late 1800's many cities had gas street lights. They burned what was called coal gas, which is essentially the same as woodgas, just from coal instead of wood. A little research on coal gas might turn up some useful information. 


To sell power back to the grid, the local generator has to be syncronized exactly with the grid. Usually involves a bunch of very expensive electronics.

[Al_Smith]

Late 1880's early 1900's the large users of electical power  had no other choice than to produce their own electricity  . The big steel mills in Pittsburg,Gary Indiana etc used more power than the local provider was capable of .

Companys such as Allis-Chalmers for one made huge horizontal engne patterened after the famous Corliss steam engine that were powered using the waste gasses emitted from the smelting of metal which used coke in the open hearth furnaces .They were using a fuel which otherwise would just be vented off to stink up the town,which it did anyway,power or not .

At any rate after a period of time it became  as it is today more economical to purchase the power from the power company and those methods were abadoned .Fact the place I worked after I got out of high school in the mid 60's had a power house that had not generated power for over 30 years at that time .

In the case I mentioned with Hoge lumber,that is a large mill and shop complex .They produce enough power for the industrial needs plus the town of New Knoxville and still sell the excess .Keep in mind this is modern state of the art installation and cost in the millons to build .

It's not to say the idea of a co generation plant is a bad idea because it isn't .It's more the intial cost of installation plus the upkeep is a very expense undertaking .Then you have to deal with the EPA or whatever governmental group is in that praticular country .

[SwampDonkey]

There are still some smelters in Canada still producing their own power as well as pulp mills that produce most of there own as well. Alcan Aluminum in Kitimat, BC has it's own hydroelectric power. If it weren't for that it wouldn't be there at all. I got that explained to me from people that run the place. It's in a remote part of the country with a deep sea port. Alcan is also doing the same up on the Chicoutimi River in Quebec and have a port on Saqueny River at Le Bay with their own rail line. It's a very deep river that dumps into the St Lawrence. They ship aluminum ingots out of there.

[Warren]

What is the price break on Electric from the grid versus generating your own using LP/Natural gas firing an internal combustion engine that drives a genset ?  20 years ago, the paper mill I worked at used natural gas to fire a turbine (basically a GE jet engine) to generate electric for the paper mill.  Was cheaper than paying peak demand for local electric utility.

Using LP/Natural gas does not take advantage of the available (free) wood waste. However, some combination of wood gasification in tandem with LP/Natural gas to smooth out peaks and drops of the gasification unit might be feasible...

Warren

[Al_Smith]

I suppose it just depends on the situation .Like in the middle of nowhere in Canada where the hoot owls romance the chickens it would make sense they lack the power to run an aluminum plant .

Some years back the trade publication of the compresser division of Ingersall rand had a piece on a glass plant in Tenn. Interestingly  that publcation was named "compressed air "

That plant installed a huge MAN marine engine and a large generator and it proved to be cost efficient .Keep in mind though that the big diesel ran on bunker oil .They also captured the heat from the exhaust plus the recirc cooling water and utiilised the heat from it .If I recall they said the pay back time was about 7 years .The old rule of thumb used to be if an invesment makes it's money back within 7 years it's a very sound investment .I imagine that has changed by now .

[Kansas]

I am getting more and more determined to find a way to make this work. Dunno if I can, but I am gonna try.

[Ianab]

From Sprucebunny's link



They do a complete 20kw unit on a pallet for $25,000. Pour your wood chips in the hopper and start making power.

Is that the sort of thing you are envisioning? The $25K is for all new equipment, should be able to refit a 2nd hand genset for much less.

Ian

[shelbycharger400]

when you add up the cost of a boiler constructed, turbine and everything else...welding, pipe fitters...State Inspectors ect..    where do you draw the line, and cut the check.

[Al_Smith]

Again it just depends on several factors .There's bunch of people as I type trying to sell pig farmers generaters that run off of digesters that use pig manure to generate methane gas .Sure they work  .Keep in mind that the farmer has business expenses so they can take it offas  a tax write off  or at least a portion of it .

Guys like poor old Al can't take of anything .I imagine all I'd get is a hard time were I to dream up some generater ran off of scrap wood or pig do do .I'd have to first buy some pigs though which I'm sure would thrill my wife .Geeze I can't go that route again ,my last divorce cost me 235 grand .

[SwampDonkey]

I'm not trying to hold anyone back, but it all reminds me of the loggers that figured if they chipped all their pulp in the woods the extra price would make them rich. Until they finally realized they were slowly going broke. Problems with chip quality, and machines burning up. These days they seem to only chip the tops as hog fuel to keep the landings and roadside cleaned up. But I digress a bunch.

[Kansas]

I keep coming back to the same thing, because so many things I find online are about chips or pellets. Chips won't dry out. Stacks of side waste off the mill will. I just can't see expending energy to make chips, or worse, pellets, when it seems just burning wood waste would be so much more efficient.

I can see it if transport is the issue. Not if you are using them on your own site where you create them.

[red oaks lumber]

using wood chuncks for fuel there is no way to regulate the heat. chips or pellets or sawdust can be used in an automatic setting.

[shelbycharger400]

if you regulate the air going in or the exh comming out you can reg the flame, just like a wood stove

[Kansas]

On the Portage amd Main, or E Classic series, or other gasification units, regulating with wood should not be a problem. I think. I did talk to the Portage and Main people about it. They had their research people on it. I am becoming more convinced all the time this should be doable, and very cost effective. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, I dunno. Here is the thing I like about it. If you could generate 3 phase electricity somewhere where running that electricity is cost prohibitive on conventional lines, and generate your own, that would sure expand the possibilities of where people could have electric mills  and/or any equipment for that matter.

Lot more work to do on this project.

[Ianab]

I think part of the advantage with chips or pellets is that the feeding and control is easier to automate.

If you were burning wood you would pretty much need to have some-one babying it, like the fireman on an old steam engine. Let the fire burn down, or throw on too much fresh wood and your gas output goes down, and you run out of power.  An automated system would be feeding in a steady amount of fuel and adjusting it cope with the load needed.

A wood boiler heating a house, it doesn't matter if the output drops off for 10mins while you reload the wood. But if your gen set stops, everything stops.

Like 100 years ago this was the power plant for a portable sawmill. It ran on waste wood. But someone had to get to the job a couple of hours early and get the  boiler up to temp and look after the power plant over the day. As they had no mains power, there we no other option, so that's what they did.

Problem is that on a small scale you can't afford a dedicated operator. It has to be at least partly automated.

Is it practical to pre-dry the slabwood, then chip it for feeding into the gas generator?

Ian

[Al_Smith]

If you could generate 3 phase electricity somewhere where running that electricity is cost prohibitive on conventional lines, and generate your own, that would sure expand the possibilities of where people could have electric mills  and/or any equipment for that matter.

Lot more work to do on this project.

There are other methods to get three phase power .For example a rotary converter runs at about 93 percent efficiency and can easily be made with a three phase moter and a hand full of parts .I've made about 20-25 of them myself .They work great .

[Kansas]

You can do that, Al. And many certainly have. But it requires extra motors, time, and you still wind up paying for the electricity. I don't know what the average sawmill has in horsepower. I did a quick figure and ours has 205 in the two bandmills, gang edger, and resaw, all in three phase.  Plus we have some more; sander, planer, pop up saw, probably a few others I am forgetting. That is a lot of phase converters. And we plan on putting in a wood waste grinder in the new building, that will run from 40 to 100 horse.  I can't even imagine what a moderate grade mill that includes a circle saw runs for horsepower.

I keep thinking back to the food products factory I believe I mentioned elsewhere in this forum. They have a bunch of phase converters set up. it would be close to 100,000 to run 3 phase from the power company. They really don't use that much electricity, nor are their motors that big. Just a bunch of them. And who knows; if power companies had a little competition, they just might be a little more competitive on getting 3 phase run to farms and rural businesses.

It will be interesting to see how the meeting goes Monday.

[Al_Smith]

Well of course after you get a large enough load it becomes impractical use a phase converter .Although I know a gent that ran a machine shop using a 50 HP converter .It took a pony motor  to spin it up though but once it was on the line he did just fine .His shop had 400 amp service .

You have to figure on 3 phase 240 it's 2.5 amps per HP or 1.25 on 480 .With 200 plus HP that's a large single phase service .

On that subject it becomes rather confusing instead of say 25 amps on a 10 HP three phase under load ,the converter only runs at around 10 amps once started .They will start up to whatever size they are and run up to 3 times that amount .So a 10 HP will run about 30 HP give or take .

If you figure the difference between using single phase motors or three phase with a converter the later is more economical .Now I'm talking a small business not someones garage nor a large user of electrical power . It would be rather silly to change a table saw over to three phase plus build or buy a converter instead of just leaving the thing alone and run it as it came .

My little shop has the old lathes ,milling machine ,drill presses etc all three phase so the choice was a no brainer for me .Besides that the look on peoples faces is worth all the effort like it's magic or something . Again little tricks of the trade you don't learn in apprenticeship school .

[Warren]

... it would be close to 100,000 to run 3 phase from the power company....

Are you working with an RECC ?   Several years ago, I was considering running 3 phase to my barn for an electric mill.  At that time the tobacco buyout program was in full swing.  One of the "provisions" of the tobacco buy out program (at least in KY) was that it would pay for utility poles and transformers to provide 3 phase electric service to farms that were "diversifying".

I had to have a building with 3 phase service panel installed and ready.  And I would have had to pay for the wiring from the transformers to the building. But the buy out program would pay for the balance of the costs.   

Are there any RECC programs available in your area that might defray the cost of installing utility 3 phase ?

[Kansas]

Al, I talk a lot with a guy from the local REA. He has been instrumental for us getting the low interest loan for the building we are putting up. He knows the ins and outs of every government program available, and probably has written more proposals for anyone rural in the state. I talked with him about it a little bit. He indicated it was the additional cost of running heavier poles, crossarms, and wire. I don't know what it costs to build a mile of three phase. I have no idea how many miles it would be where this place is at from where 3 phase is available. Maybe someone on this forum that might have something to do with electric companies can add further to this.

[Al_Smith]

I wouldn't have a clue myself .I was never involved in the cost and probabley the longest line I was ever involved in was about a half a mile .

You could figure a pole about every 160 to 200 feet .I suppose by now maybe 1500 2 grand per pole

When I was working out of the hall my IBEW ticket was/is journeyman inside wireman . However working for a small contractor you could get involved in any thing .Enough line work I decided that wasn't my cup of tea so to speak .

Ha 40 years later I much prefer programming industrial robots which is much less taxing to the old bod as stomping poles .

[Norm]

3/4's of a mile with new poles and wire was 24K about 10 years ago.

[thecfarm]

Cost me $5000 for 500 feet going up my driveway 11 years ago.  Would of been more if the phone company did not own part of the line.

[Al_Smith]

The rascals kind of have everybody by the short hairs with having to pay for the utilities supply llines weather it's gas or electric . It didn't used to be that way but politics being what they are the powers that be got the laws changed over the years .

When those single phase lines were first installed it wouldn't have cost them very much more to hang cross arms and two more conductors on the original installation .50-60 years later they want to put in new poles etc weather they need them or not and charge for a whole new line .Just another means to take advantage of a situation .Not much you can do about except mumble and grumble .

If the power is already available they don't charge to make the tie in from the pole to the point of attachement locally .Fact I ungraded my wife's cousin's shop a few years back from 200 amp single to 240 delta .No charge from the power company . They had to set two more transformers plus make a drop of quadra plex .

I had to laugh after he got his first bill .He thought he would get hit high with a demand meter .He only had the largest motor in his shop at 7.5 HP and he didn't know any better .The bill was less than had he been still on single phase .

[Kansas]

Had a great talk with Rick at Bioburner.Just exploring every avenue available. They have done some research in this kind of area, and he gave me some good figures. He seems to think most of this is all experimental. He said go forward carefully. Which I will.

I just keep thinking that this whole thing is about re-inventing the wheel. If it was done in the 40's extensively to power gas engines, it shouldn't be that hard now to replicate. I have to think that wood gasification would be better now than people having wood burning stoves in the back of pickups back then and feeding the carb. What I have trouble with is figuring out what kind of wood waste stream we actually generate, the best to utilize it, how much power we can generate from that waste.

[Ron57]

 The GEK people are now working on a 100KW power generator for the University of Minnesota. They may be able to help you figure out if it is practical, I dont see why it wouldnt be especially if you are using the heat as well as the electricity.You probably could use something larger than that by your electric bill.
    My pickup now has about 6000 mi on woodgas with no problem, one question I have is how long will the motor last burning wood ? I am sure that if it is filtered good enough it would last at least as long as gasoline.
 I am building a gasifier to run a 65hp tractor and am planning to run a pto  run generator about a 30kw to partly supply my shop.

[5quarter]

Maybe you could generate enough cash from slab by-product to pay the electric bill rather than trying to make your own electricity. What if you had a dedicated planer and ran all your slab wood through that and sold the shavings for animal bedding, or even insulation? Arky insulated his buildings with wood shavings and it seemed to work well for him. just a thought.

[SwampDonkey]

This whole house is insulated with wood wool. I call it wool for lack of the proper term at the moment. We installed it in the 70's, even added extra in the attic about 25 year ago. It's blown in with a rig we rented. If I remember there is a fire suppressant added in it.

[Al_Smith]

Wood wool ,Forest wool ,they're both just trade names for ground up newspaper with a fire retardent .

Imagine that ,insulting a house by recycling the New York Times or the Chicago Tribune .Plus this was all before anybody got that "green " idea .

Seriously though ,insulation is about the only thing I know of that will put money back in your pocket over a given amount of time which requires no maintainance .Now of course you can't let the roof leak turning the whole mess into paper mache .
 

[SwampDonkey]

No worst than water soaked fibre glass pink insulation sitting in wooden boxed cavities in walls and attics.

Not only will it keep frosty out in the winter, but keeps heat miser at bay in the summer.

I know a fellow that lived in a trailer and those walls are pretty thin. His power consumption was about the same year round. If it wasn't baseboard heat in the winter it was air conditioning all summer. He even had the trailer surrounded by trees and it would still get hot in that tin box.   Only thing that runs extra here is a little 1/4 hp motor on the furnace in winter.

[Al_Smith]

No worst than water soaked fibre glass pink insulation sitting in wooden boxed cavities in walls and attics.

 

Fibre glass   Must be the same as fiber glass . I'll have to cheque that out .

[TMinus]

Canadian spelling, you yanks mix-up your 'e's and 'r's and forget your 'u's 

[Al_Smith]

  R U nutz ,we can spiel real good .

[Kansas]

Talked to a company today that talked about their unit, being basically a turn key type operation, producing electricity at 2.5 cents a kilowatt hour, not counting the cost of the wood waste and labor fueling the unit. And you don't have to use wood chips, you can use the wood cut in chunks. It sounds way too good to be true. But if it was true, all I can say is wow. Now I have to figure out if they are legit.

Not quite sure how to proceed further with this thread as far as naming the company. Just got home from an unrelated late meeting and will do some more checking out sometime tonight. It sounds exactly like what I am looking for, and also sounds too good to be true. But if it appears to be a solid company, and that is a big if, I would like advise from the electrical and engineer type people from here.

[Paul_H]

Kansas,

do you have a name and website of the co?

[Kansas]

Will shoot you a personal message

[SwampDonkey]

I'll have to cheque that out .

Pay cheque, wood check Al. 

[Al_Smith]

Well yes but pay cheques are almost a thing of the past ,direct deposit .

I never checked out the Canadian spelling of same but I assume some French must have gotten mixed in some how.

Back to the subject .Sooo with this info it appears as I had heard in the past that the utilities evidently buy the co generated power at 2.5 cents per KWH which is pretty cheap considering .

Lets see now at 34,500 BTU per steam HP plus the reduction factor converting HP to generated power plus other factors that could amount to a gigantic pile of wood to get some salable power .

Well I suppose a person could grind it all to sawdust and blow it in like they do powdered coal in a rotary concrete kiln .There's not much you can do with sawdust anyway except make charcoal briquets .It might drive the price of charcoal up but not many use it anymore anyway .--Oh Lawdy this could go on forever ---

[Kansas]

The website of the company is www.planetgreensolutions.com 

I just had time to some of their videos. One thing I still don't quite get is if non chipped wood can be used. When I talked to them on the phone, they indicated it could. That was why I was kind of looking at a bio burner for using up the sawdust and green wood chips for the gases and use the motor and generator from someone else in case firewood wasn't a good option.  Planet green did indicate they wanted dry for their burner, which is what I was hoping for so we could just stack sawmill waste on pallets and let it air dry. But they might have a totally different idea of what firewood for their unit is. Or maybe theirs is adaptable for that.

[Al_Smith]

I would certainly assume the just like coal the moisture content of wood ,chips ,sawdust would play a significant part in both the amount used plus controll of the fire . High moisture coal doesn't burn worth a hoot either .

Steam is one thing you definatley want good control of the fire else you either loose the pressure or hope to high heavens you have good set of relief valves .

I for one have a great respect for steam ,I've seen what can happen if it gets loose .'taint pretty .

[Kansas]

Found out why the chips or blocks have to be somewhat uniform. They pass through 4 stages in the unit. And the problem with trying to use gases from other burners is this. There is no fire in their units. Its oxygen starved. As near as I can tell, that eliminates something like the bioburner for a fuel source, unless you were going to go the steam route. And having been around one boiler at a feed mill making pellets, like Al, I really don't want a part of that. Not if the gasification route can work, and I think it can.

[mad murdock]

.025 per kwh seems real cheap to produce flowing electrons.  Kansas, is your wood source plentiful and inexpensive?  Smurfit has a newsprint mill near here, (Newberg), they burn hog fuel, and produce power and steam from that operation.  They accept public dumping of wood waste, woody yard debris, etc.  They get a lot of free fuel.  They have a contractor with a large tub grinder that classifies all of the wood fuel to the same size.  One would think that to efficiently burn and have control over the energy released from wood, you would have to make your fuel fairly uniform in size, or go the gasification route like you were already musing, in order to really get it down to an efficient operation.  Any idea on the process that these co-gen wood waste plants use that nave been set up in recent years?

[Kansas]

At this point I consider our wood waste to be virtually worthless in its present form. I have several ways to go. We are trying the firewood bundling thing to use some of it. We could put in a wood waste grinder to get rid of the rest of it, and try to sell mulch. Or we can use it to create electricity.

Running into a couple of problems. Grinding the wood waste won't work if its green, at least so far as I can tell. I want to process the wood waste as we produce it. Or, stack it on pallets for firewood/fuel source and let it air dry. That is why I was trying to figure if there was any way to use something like the bioburner to fuel it. Everything could have been ground, and used the sawdust as well.  But where there is no flame involved, I don't know if there is a way to produce the gases to fuel the engine. Which leaves steam as an option, which comes back around to something that will need a lot of attention. I would really like to find a way to just grind all the wood waste to fuel something like the bioburner, produce gas,and fuel the engine from the gases. Just haven't yet found a way. Or, I have to way to make the proper size chunks and let them dry.

[Al_Smith]

So in essence what this all boils down is the fact there are millions of BTUs' of heat ,just no pratical  ways to utlize them  at the present time .--or rather no easy solution to the puzzle .

[SwampDonkey]

Mostly supplemental during peek power usage at the pulp mills. They are not fully independent of the grid. Some of the motors in these places are 300 HP, takes a lot of juice.

[Kansas]

We had a brainstorming session at the mill after work yesterday. I showed them the video (its now a new one and under a different category on the website). My biggest problem this whole time has been the material handling of it. It has to be fairly dry and in smaller chips. I can't believe after running a grain elevator for some years the solution didn't hit me sooner. Grind the wood waste, put in bins with areation like they have for grain, and dry them. No heat needed, just air. If I could dry grain down in 130 ft tall bins with just air, I ought to be able to do it in bins 8 or 10 ft tall. My first idea was take an old steel silo we have standing that is in bolted sections and break it down to three or four sections. You could fill each section with chips and have a portable fan. The Co-op I used to work for had those for bins in a wooden structure. There were a lot of small bins, and you just moved the air from one bin to the other. The problem was how to get chips out of the rings. Then my business partner came up with a better plan. Take concrete blocks that we have (the big ones) build a square structure with swinging doors, then the chips could come right out with a skid steer. They could be loaded over the top with the 544 JD we have. Be easier to construct a top over something square than round anyway.

[Paul_H]

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33753.0.html

[SwampDonkey]

The tale end of that thread, was getting desperate. 

If it were me, I would tumble dry with some warm air duck directed into the perforated tumbler of wood chips. But your taking away heat energy from electric generation to dry chips. Which won't fly. The alternative is to have enough volume of kiln product to plane and recover the dry chips. I know a lot of hardwood mills don't plane, so that probably won't fly either.

[Kansas]

I don't see desperation.. this can work, with very little cost, if you are referring to my thread. Grain will air dry with air flow.  I simply can't see why wood chips cannot either. Use large size chips from the grinder would help. But of upi can move air through corn, why not chips.

I am now comfortable with that portion of things. Still not comfortable with the company, and net metering.Much to learn yet. But one hurdle I think is solved. Wonder if we have any FF members around Ocala Florida that have any knowledge of these people.

[SwampDonkey]

Kansas, you miss understood. Jeff and the boys in that linked thread where crawling under the sawmill and gathering sawdust that laid for years to fill feed bags for the original biomizer. I think a little snow had fallen on the ground by that point. Comical.

But that being said, I'm not sure that this hasn't been puzzled over and later put aside more than one time. Some day, you or someone else may have the answer.

[Al_Smith]

If I'm not mistaken those aeration type driers stir the grain in addition to blowing air through it .

It might be possible to auger the chips out the bottom and use something like a silo blower to shoot them in the top .Thus keeping the material in motion to more assure drying .A thought ,might work might  not

What I would fear from stored chips if they don't get enough air would be spontanious combustion .Fact the exact thing happened to that Hoge lumber I mentioned in previous posts .Caught a silo on fire ,several people died as a result .

[Kansas]

Al, none of the aeration fans with grain that I have ever been around moved the grain. They simply move air through the grain. Moisture naturally rises. A bottom fan and a place for air to escape on the top should be able to do the job. A top exhaust fan should not be needed. The grain elevator I ran did have both top and bottom fans. But you are talking 130 ft. The bottom fan pushed the air up; the top fan helped remove the moisture. It actually could not keep up with the bottom fan. Moisture would accumulate at the top of the silo and crust over the grain, if you didn't shut off the bottom one once in awhile.  But its a big difference on the height than what I'm planning on doing.

During harvest time, when I was running out of room, I would keep a close eye on bin height. My last ace in the hole was that in those 130 ft tall bins, after the air was running awhile, the pile of grain would drop about 8 ft. That would give me close to another 5000 bushel of storage. I have to believe that coarser chips will be easier to push air through than grain.

I did have a few tools at my disposal in grain that I won't have here. There were heat sensing cables down through the pile of grain. I took readings every week and kept track of any possible "hot spots" that might be developing in a bin. And I could rotate the grain somewhat, aerate, or transfer to another bin in a worst case scenario.  I just can't see that being needed here. Guess maybe I will find out.

[Al_Smith]

Perhaps it depends on the system .My uncle has one that moves the grain around .

Say another thought .I remember decades ago the round corn cribs had a center heavy duty wire cage inside them that let the air circulate through the ear corn from top to bottom .Maybe that has some merit ?

[jpgreen]

Note on small gassifiers...

I really like the engineering this guy has over the GEK:

http://victorygasifier.com/

His design is much more efficient and by far simpler. I've followed GEK's developement and I don't know how to express it but their units are a needless complicated mess of engineering and add on lashups.

Just my opinion.  I would like to have one of Victory's units. A real concern for wood gas and engine longevity is tar and the damage it can do to an engine over time. Definitely a consideration, and the cleaner running gasser the better.

[Norm]

Yes the newer bins have stirators in them, way better system for drying.

http://www.sukup.com/Fastir.aspx

[Al_Smith]

I did a Google on that wood burner from that Hoge lumber I often refer to .It's my only reference simpley because it's so close to me,30 miles or so south .Any how those two boilers burn 6 ton per hour each .

The fuel is 75 percent sawdust with the remainder being bark,grindings etc .The plant outs out something in exess of 3 mega watts so it's relatively large .

[DarkBlack]

The only real possibility for savings is to start with an electric generator system (80% heat loss) and design it to use the waste heat for other needs. Starting with a designed heat machine and then trying to modify the system to get electric off it will always be a $ loss. sorry for the bad news.

[Al_Smith]

I think that statement holds true with about any system designed to use basically waste material to generate .

For example Hoge lumber uses the steam to operate their drying kilns .Way long time ago when Mother Earth news used a Pontiac engine ran off of gasified charcoal they used the coolant from the engine plus the exhaust as a means of heat .

Now this chip business .I wonder what if any method is used to dry the stuff on those bio burner plants or if they just feed it in with high moisture ?? If it would burn it probabley wouldn't make much difference except it would blow a lot of steam out the stack . With a good hot coal bed and a forced draft blower you could  probabley burn swamp willow .

[Bandmill Bandit]

http://cleanbioenergyinc.com/

If you want more info please send me a PM.

[Gary_C]

I have not looked very closely at this subject but I can tell you the paper mills that are burning wood waste are composting the waste. One mill is buying or just accumulating wood waste and they have a big tub grinder sitting in the yard where they grind the waste and pile it in the yard. Then the big end loaders will periodically turn the compost piles and then they use a blend of the compost plus some coal for their boilers.

But this is a big operation.

Also I know the largest buyer of biomass chips in MN has been running their boilers on natural gas all summer. Must be cheaper fuel right now.

[SwampDonkey]

Gary, the mills here complain that natural gas is way too high.

[Al_Smith]

Compost eh ,odd .Usually if they build compost piles they first grind the stuff then lay it out in wind rows about 6 feet high and 500 feet long covered with a big tarp . Periodically they uncover it and use a small dozer like a John Deere 450 and side cast the piles to stir them up .After about a year or so it's just about like top soil .

Now the saw dust just builds up great giant mountains then periodically those things disappear . I imagine they must peddle it for making charcoal briquets or somebody burns it up in a bio burner .Now on that I've seen the steam or vapor come off those piles when it's 10 below zero .That stuff can get hot as it's breaking down .Fact my itty pitty piles which are no bigger that a Volkswagon will melt the snow off the top of them .

[SwampDonkey]

The old sawmill across the road from my grandfather's place left a huge pile of sawdust. It was closed up and scrapped in the 60's. That sawdust pile can still be seen behind a house that was built there 25 years ago. The sawdust still looks brown like it was just piled there.

[magicmikey]

Rather than composting I suspect the fuel is being aged, the change to the wood makes it flow better through the stoker equipment whereas fresh will tend to bridge or hang up.
mike

[Al_Smith]

You know to tell the truth I have no idea how they feed the fire .I wouldn't think it would be augered like a stocker fed house furnace using coal .Lawdy if that thing clogged it would pack saw dust tighter than a bulls butt at flytime .

I doubt they fling it like on a rotary grate  coal boiler .I'd about guess it would be blown in like they transport sawmill dust or grain in a processing plant . Really don't know though .

[magicmikey]

 The ideas for feeding a boiler are as varied as designing a bandmill,  :)including augers. Wood waste is about the toughest material to move without blockages. The feed system must also respond to varying loads and includes fuel variences - moisture, fines,chunks and composition.
  A common operation uses chutes with an air nozzle at the bottom to spread the fuel over the grate same as a coal stoker. You get a 2 part fire, fines burn in suspension with the chunks forming a bed on the grate. Probably the best feeder for hog fuel can be found by googling " moving hole feeder".
mike

[Al_Smith]

Aha,thanks for that .That moving hole feeder deal is very similar to a system used at a local (30 miles away ) company that uses wood flour and phenolic based resins to make a product .

That "wood flour " is chips ground as fine as face powder and once mixed  with the resin is sticky as hide glue ,nasty,nasty ,nasty .

[pyrocasto]

Somehow I've missed this thread.

I've been into DIY alternative energy since I was in high school. www.fieldlines.com is a great place to start, and I've been a member for around 7 years there.

Replacing electric/gas bills with alternative methods is easy. You simply have to decide whether you want to pay a different bill for 20 years until the new stuff is paid off, or if you'd rather spend a bunch of time fiddling and save some money. Gasification is a good example. Pay $20k for a 20kw system you can run tomorrow, or build one yourself for hundreds that may take you a year work right.

My opinion is to just buy solar with or without a battery system, or build a home made windmill system if you have the time/space. Pay off on the solar is around 15 years now, and they will last 30-40, and payoff with decent wind on a homemade can be a few years or so. Steam could be a good option, but steam engines arent cheap if you arent building them, and permitting can be difficult.

If you lived in northern canada you might check out peltier/thermoelectric chips as an option, but they arent very efficient.

[Al_Smith]

Well there have been many alternatives over the years of ways to conserve energy with respect to residential construction .Earth sheltered houses were one .Although very practical they fell out of favor .Seems after a period of time people felt they lived in a basement of which for all intents they did .

That aside even industrial buildings are being more conservative about ways to conserve which has nothing to do with being "green" merely a buzz word ,nothing more .The real reason is dollars and cents savings .

Another savings regarding electrical usage would be more energy efficient drive systems used on large industrial applications for machine tools and the like . The large 50 to 200HP drive motors have pretty much been replaced with DC servo motors which operate considerabley more economicaly than the previous systems .In addition the lighting systems are now using much better illumination than the thousands of 8 foot flourescent lights of years ago .

All this has nothing to do with generating electrical power from wood chips though ,only a thought .The difference between a 2 million square foot factory and a sawmill is quite light years apart

[pyrocasto]

I agree Al, you save a lot more money by spending for more efficient appliances, building materials and the such, than you do buying alternative energy stuff. I have a 35k sq ft cabinet shop with a ~$22000 a year electric bill, with another $8000 yearly for NG heating(fire marshal is an idiot, wont allow wood boilers). I'm currently insulating the garage doors with cardboard as inch per inch it's almost as good as foam boards. Cheap, effective.

[SwampDonkey]

Insulation will do wonders.

My electric bill is so cheap that I'd have to live a long time to recover costs from any of the solar and wind, plus loose on replacement parts and maintenance. You gotta do the math and put down the glossy brochures. I was sitting and talking to a neighbor from my area a couple weeks ago. He moved to another town and was in to see father and a guy back east visiting us. He said he put in a $6000 windmill, a local build. But then he said it's only supplemental. He said the power company only pays about 1.5 cents a killowatt for the surplus times. He also went on to say it had already blown apart one time in the wind and he had to repair the roof from the collision. All confirmed what I knew all a long that you will encounter.  The hitting the roof might be a freak thing, but the breaking down of equipment is going to happen.

[Kansas]

Still working on it. Waiting on the KFS for the engineer advice. But I did stumble onto something. Bloom Energy, which has fuel cell technology, has a website and they talked about what can power their stand alone fuel cell units. One of the things mentioned was biogas. They were referring more to the gasses off of landfills and waste plants that cities have. Wonder if there is a chance in the world wood burning gases would power one of these units. Here is their website.

http://www.bloomenergy.com/

Most of them are powered by natural gas. But if you hit products and data sheet, it mentions biogas.

[jpgreen]

Call these guys.  They need a new project, since California burned them.

http://www.globalgreensolutionsinc.com/s/Home.asp