Fair sawlog/ veneer grading

[madmari]

 Over the past year, I've shipped some beautiful hardwood to mills only to be  frustrated with the scaling and grading on the mill slip.
  I've been very careful to buck the logs for grade and follow the specs from the individual mills. I even had a veneer buyer come to my landing and explain what defects are allowed and what will deduct. He looked the logs over, said they looked perfect, marked them with a "V". At the mill I shipped those very logs, they are graded down to rediculous sums that make me regret even cutting the trees. What gives?
  Some very nice cherry and maple have been sent and I have never recieved a veneer check. I don't want to falsely accuse, however I am sure these logs are not being used to make really nice pallets. If this continues, I am going to deliver  gun-barrel firewood that splits VERY well. 

  Any help would be  surely appreciated.

[beenthere]

Likely a buyers market and the mill (s) not looking for wood.
Likely they don't have a market for their products either. Just guessin.

[madmari]

They are looking for maple in a big way.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Veneer is a slippery slope. One day I will buy a log for veneer and then the next the same log is just a sawlog. It all depends on the market and what not. Sometimes I am allowed to buy 3k feet of Maple veneer with 70% heart and once that 3k is bought my spec goes back to 25% heartwood or whatever it may be. Sometimes we are desperate for veneer for filler of plywood so we will start buying some of the better #1 and #2 sawlogs as a low grade veneer but once we have enough then they are just sawlogs. Sometimes what I am allowed to buy for veneer has changed 3 times in a day.

When I look at a log on a landing and put a V on it that means today it is a possible veneer. If it arrives at the log yard 3 days later it might be a sawlog. Also depending on how logs are laid out in the woods it is tough to see the bumps, swells, bark T's, etc.

[Frickman]

They just didn't need the wood. The only species in demand in my parts right now is hard maple. The place I've been hauling red oak and tulip poplar to for years basically cut me off last week. They've never done that in twenty plus years. They've always cut off other guys but never me. They just can't sell the lumber. Even cherry isn't moving for them. They'll buy every stick of blocking wood they can find, just not much grade. In order to keep me in business they've offered me a contract logging job on some timber they bought about three miles from home. They would sooner keep me going than someone else.

If I have large quantity of high-grade logs they are sold, and sometimes paid for, right on the landing. Or maybe at my yard. I do have places I take ungraded logs and pick up a check on Friday, but that is just for run of the woods logs, not for something special. It sometimes suprises me what variation in offer price I get for some wood.

[madmari]

I guess that's where I'm headed. If I can find a buyer looking for high grade logs, and they are willing to grade and pay for them on the landing then that's who'll get them. Maybe LL firewood can keep me going for now....

[Ron Wenrich]

Did you sell logs to the veneer buyer who came out to your landing?  Loggers make money in marketing.  That means you would send some logs to one mill and others to another.  We even sell to different veneer buyers.  But, right now markets are tight.  We've been cutting firewood and letting the sawtimber stand until markets stiffen up.

[madmari]

Some of these cuts are time crucial ( 3-4 acre clearcuts) where the trees gotta go. Lately I find landowners that are desperate to get any financial help they can. That means cutting timber if there is no other choice. Of course I market the wood where I think it will pay best as it pays me and the landowner.
  You are correct in the firewood department. It pays the bills, but I do like to discover nice wood!

[T Welsh]

During and after the recession, the market has dropped 30 to 50% here in PA. marketing is your only recourse, to make sure you get every penny. like Ron said, we are cutting firewood and leaving the saw timber stand. its so bad, that I have even quartered saw logs on the mill to run through the processor. it goes against every grain in my body to do this,but its profitable. Tim

[timbuck2]

I'll assume you're taking logs in to a broker?   TRW, "where veneer turns into pallet overnight"!   I've had better luck with Dillon, if you have enough volume I would try Champeau (spelling ?) in Quebec, direct to mill.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what the others have said concerning the grade logs and veneer market. The demand isn't there, so the fair product price isn't being paid. Best not to harvest the quality trees until their is serious demand.

[240b]

Selling wood in the champlain valley is tough.  The markets down towards Bristol are horrible. The last time I worked in the valley I shipped my wood the the eastern side of the state. the increased cost of trking was not even an issue.  Forget the contract logging all your doing is wearing out the equipment, your time is better spent
looking at wood and repair stuff.   If your clearing lots well thats the way it is, cut it down..

[madmari]

Just got a log check from Bristol for some real prime ash- (yes, I spelled it right ). Averages $200 mbf. Gotta pay the stumpage and trucking from that. I wish I'd have put the logs into cordwood- would have saved gas  bucking, too.
   I really enjoy working in the woods; get alot of satisfaction from cutting nice logs. But these advertised prices from the mills and the paid prices are in a way, fruadulent. In the case of the ash logs, above, I followed the mill specs to the letter for prime grade advertised at $400 mbf. I was payed two grades lower. There is no sense complaining , that will go nowhere. Will I send them anymore logs? No.
 I used a log broker before, sent pine to Quebec. Trucker said there was over 7 mbf on the truck when it left my landing. Got a mill slip for 4500 bf ! Maybe the trucker didn't secure the load? Who stole the logs?

  Very frustrating. Hope I get over it, but working this hard to watch the financial future of my business slip away is getting hard to bear.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Have you talked to the guy who scaled your logs? Will he let you scale/grade a load with him?

I always welcome my suppliers to go through the loads with me when possible. When there are any questions on scale or grade I am more than happy to address them. Helps them know why I'm scaling and grading the way I am and also lets them know that I'm not trying to screw them. It also lets them know just what I'm looking for.

[madmari]

Done that. Studied the hardwood utilization bucking standards to the point that my wife calls it "log porn" and that I should seek therapy to overcome the addiction and met with scalers to garner more info. I realize you can't make a bad log good, but you can make a good log bad. Those go elsewhere. But prime lumber- dime sized , centered hearts on 16" hard maple with no defects should command a fair grade and scale.
  I am not accusing scalers or mills of cheating. I would just like the advertised prices on log sheets to be true and accurate. I can make the decision then to cut or not to cut.
   240B- I'll heed your advice and try log yards to the east. Gotta beat what's happening here.

[BaldBob]

I'll bet its been over 40 years since I saw a legal over-the highway load that went over 7mbf, and those were usually 3 log loads on trucks that went 40 tons GVW. How did your trucker determine that he was carrying over 7mbf?  4500bf is a normal load size for today's average sized logs. Much over 5000mbf/load is somewhat uncommon, though it was not uncommon to see loads that went up to 6500bf of bone dry beetle killed Lodgepole pine being hauled following bark beetle outbreaks. But those loads were usually pushing  (and sometimes exceeding) legal height limits.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its a hard time to sell logs.  But, its also a hard time to sell lumber.  Defects that used to go into lumber just won't go anymore.  The wholesalers have stiffened up on the grade.  That means the mills will stiffen the grade on the logs.  It also means the logger has to stiffen his grade on the stumpage end.  Mills will always keep their prices inflated.  That's what brings you in the door. 

Are you selling veneer quality logs to a mill?  That's just asking for a disaster.  We separate our veneer, sometimes on the landing.  We let the veneer buyers come in and buy what they want.  We use several buyers.  What they don't want goes to the mill.  I do know that there are nicer logs coming through the mill, which tells me the veneer buyers are being more picky.  Back when demand was high, I'd rarely see a decent log come into the mill unless there was metal in it. 

[madmari]

Thanks- I'll sort the veneer and try that.

[tjdub]

Thanks- I'll sort the veneer and try that.

It never hurts to try to get sealed bids on those veneer logs.  If you can get a few veneer buyers out there to make a bid on those logs at the landing, you can't go wrong.  However, if you don't have many logs and/or don't have many buyers nearby, you may not be able to drum up enough interest.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I've never seen any sealed bids for logs by either mills or veneer buyers in my area.  Buyers basically tell you their price, and you let them go through a load.  If it seems like a good scale and grade, then you sell it.  We lay all our logs out so they can see them real well.  If their price isn't any good, then we move on to the next buyer.  Logs are plentiful, so they won't bid on any logs.  Simply move on to the next seller.

During the really good times for ash logs the old guy running the operations would bring in a buyer and tell them they could have any log they wanted at $4/bf.  After the first guy went through, they would bring in the next buyer and tell them anything at $3.50/bf.  They did that until the veneer was gone, then took the rest to a handle plant.  They only got away with that for a few years until the market went away.  You can't do that in this market.