Logging transport across my land

[johncinquo]

A fellow owns about 120 acres to the north of my property.  There is a substantial creek that flows through the middle of his land, making it not passable from one side to the other with a vehicle.  Essentially, his bottom 60 is land locked to travel.  Everything is private property hat would lead to the road to get out.  He approached me previously and we talked about selling him a easement.  He did not like my price at all.  I offered to trade him some of my land, for some of his, and he did not like that idea either.  His wooden shoes squeak.  Anyway, I have found out they are getting ready to log his land. The trees are marked and the boundaries are outlined.  They did get off onto my land in one spot, but looks like they have corrected it and have it re-marked correctly.  I did not venture too far back, but a neighbor told me they have some heavy equipment back in the brush already. 
I am debating what to do now.  Wait and stop the log truck when I see them going across my land.  Call him now before anything starts and discuss what his plans are.  I have a price in mind that I will charge for driving through my land, and he is not going to like it.  I have it marked as "Private Property, No Trespassing" with signs, but a sign never stopped anyone.  I am sure there are no plans to fly them out by helicopter, and see no other options to get them out. 
Am I  being reasonable in wanting something to cross my land?  What is a reasonable amount I should ask?  Any other ideas for compensation? 

[beenthere]

John
You haven't said what you plan to charge to cross your land, so how can we respond if it is reasonable or not?

Will be up to you as to how you want to continue getting along with your neighbor. But if a logging firm has the contract to move the logs, then seems that a deal to cross your land would be made with that logger, not the landowner.

I'd go back and talk with the loggers. Them knowing you, and that you are friendly (??) would be a good place to start.

Let us know how it pans out.

[red oaks lumber]

what would you want for a deal if the roles were reversed?

[Ianab]

A common bargaining chip here is "track improvements".

You get the logger to do work on your access road, some more gravel, new culverts or whatever. This improves your land, reduces the damage their machinery does, and makes their life easier as they have better access to the job.

So the "consideration" need not be a cash payment, but they do some work and leave your property better than when they got there.

Ian

[lynches lumber]

Had a family owned logging company ask for permission to use a road of mine to haul out timber a few years ago. They damaged a gate. Said they would replace any damage they caused when they were done. A couple of weekends into the job one of the sons invited me down to his neck of the woods for a duck hunt when he found out I loved to duck hunt. After the hunt I was running late for an appointment back home. Met this man with a blue bubble gum machine on top of his car. as he was pulling me over. I be darned if a plastic bag didnt fly out of the boat. Well as I was trying to explain the logical reasons for the problem ,the son and his dad pulled up to see if I was having problems.Obviously the logging family had a lot of friends. I left there with a warning ticket for a seat belt. That gate is still swinging. Wouldnt take $425 for that thing.

[Frickman]

I've done what Ianab described many times. In lieu of a cash payment  I improve the property with my equipment and a little gravel. If I do pay for access it is usually 25 to 50 dollars / truckload of loads, pay as I go. In that case I will draw up a formal agreement, a temporary right-of-way, spelling out the terms of the agreement. If it's an improve the property deal usually the landowners are the type that don't like paperwork so we don't generate any.

Any time I have to pay extra to access timber I consider it just another expense in harvesting the timber unique to the tract and the money comes out of the harvest landowner's pocket, not mine. Just like when I pay less for timber standing on a steep hillside than another tract that is flat and alongside a good road.

[scsmith42]

John, at a minimum I would send the logging company a certified letter ASAP notifying them that you have not granted permission to cross your land, nor does the adjacent landowner have an easement to cross it.

[Ron Scott]

How did they get the logging equipment in? Did they cross the creek?

[Autocar]

Ive improved right of ways and have paid up to one hundred dollars to cross. But the ground conditions have been perfect. Red Oaks Lumber hit the nail on the head [ What if the role was reversed ? ] Always a good thing to try your best to get along.

[johncinquo]

I would probably prefer the land owner to work with me in advance, rather than him just assume he was going to go across my land.  I am guessing the logging company has no idea either way, and this will all be news to them.  The road needs no improvements, no drainage/gravel needed.  No gate up, but there will be one after this Saturday!  I found tracks where they drove the equipment in, but I did not go beyond my land yet to see what all they have back there.  I am not after giving the loggers a hard time, they are probably ignorant of the whole property issues and that they came in on private property.  I am going to head out and try and talk with them and see what they plan on doing as of now.  I have left a message for the land owner, no word back yet but will see what he plans. 

What would I want?  I'd want it free just like everyone else!      But I already know that does not happen nowadays.  If him and I were reversed, I know darn well he would be charging me.  I pay the higher taxes for road frontage.  I keep all the trespassers off his land with my land marked and posted.  I have offered him an option to this problem in the past, and he declined.  Hey pay me now, or pay me later, but nothing is life is free. 

I'll let ya know how it turns out. 

[beenthere]

I'd guess it is the logging company's responsibility to know who's land they are on, and their responsibility to get permission.
Might not be the time for you to be silent and coy about what is happening as you see it shaping up. But you can play it any way you want.

Good neighbors are hard to find, and it takes work to keep them as good neighbors.

[red oaks lumber]

if your land butts upto a section line, you'll be giving acsess to land locked property.

[gunman63]

not sure thats correct red oaks, the guys land isnt really  landlocked, so it doesnt  quailfy for the cartway on the  section line. hes able to reach his  property already, just  cant  get to the back of it, plus if it  did  it would be  mighty expensive  building  a cartway, for  just  some trees.

[POSTONLT40HD]

First of all the balls in his court. As I understand it, nothing has been done to intrude on your life or property.

Next, since your land is POSTED, if logging trucks or anyone else crosses your property, call the Sheriff's Department or Wildlife Commission in your area since your signs have been disregarded.

This will put the land owner and the logging trucks to a dead halt.

Now the ball is STILL in his court. He has to make a move.

You may NOW get your asking price for whatever YOU decide because he has now been shut down for not abiding by the law.

As long as you use the law and stay within the law....it's like holding candy in front of a baby.

I've seen it work before.

[johncinquo]

The owner got back with me.  His story is, he did not know the logging company had come down to the southern section, across my land.  (since they did not swim here, I am not sure how he thinks they got there)   They did drive across my land using my private road to get to it, the tire tracks are there and I did find where they had some vehicles parked.  Any vehicles or equipment is no longer there.  All the trees are marked as to what they intend to cut.  I'd call it a thinning of the older trees, but really not worth the effort at this time.  Nothing over 24", and everything down to 16" and many seem to be less than that.  Anyway, we had a talk and he is going to stop in at my office next weeek and we are going to discuss some options.  He says he has not decided whether to have it logged or not yet, and is waiting on the count and quote back from the survey.  I talked with all the other land owners that he might possibly have a route for them to get through, but everyone has a "yard" or no road through at all and have no intention of giving access through.  He did say he was going to look at going through a section of low area that a culvert was installed before.  I had a chuckle and asked if he had been out there lately, he hadn't.  It is about 40 feet deep and 60 across, and very steep, the culvert has long collapsed and the swamp has reclaimed the whole area.  You would spend a considerable amount time and money getting through there again.  On top of that the neighbor to the West of there is a wetlands/watershed activist and the first sound of a dozer running and he would have the DNR DEQ or any other gubermental agency he could get ahold of out there with C&D orders.   
I'll have to wait and see what he has in mind and go from there.  Still putting up a gate this weekend.  I know many people find it easier to ask forgiveness than permission. 

[shinnlinger]

My question is how does it effect you if they use that access?  Does it really matter?   Negative energy directed at you for little gain is rarely a good thing. 

My advice, Be reasonable.  If you think your road could use some more gravel when there are done, fair enough, ask for it.  Maybe some firewood or saw logs.  Maybe you have a spot or two that could use some thinning or tree work.  JUst think down the line if you have to ask your neighbor for a favor will he be inclined to grant it?  It doesn't sound to me like they are infringing on you very much to use your road.

Dave

[Autocar]

Shinnlinger I agree one hundred percent with you ! Good Post , Bill

[WH_Conley]

Might be more beneficial to be on good terms with the logger than the neighbor. I would talk to him first. You would probably come closer to needing the logger down the road than the neighbor. I would make a point to talk to him while waiting on the neighbor.

[doghunter]

when I buy a tract of timber as soon as the deal is final i contact all the adjoining landowners just to let them know what is going to happen. some times i buy more timber from them later, sometimes i get a heads up to be ready for a battle with them, some times i just get to meet some nice people and sometimes i meet people who want to control all they see wherther they own it or not. as loggers we try to get along with the neighbors so that i can sleep soundly leaving $75,000 dollars worth of equipmant unattended at night. i always have landowners guarantee acess just in case there are problems later. most of the time after the neighbors see we try to do a good job of cleaning up and not making a big mess they are ok with us. sometimes i have left  a few trees (the only shade on a neighbors back yard) just to keep from upsetting them. mostly i just want to try to keep the confrontations to a minimum its just good business. talk to the loggers before they start just to let them know what is going on. use the legal system as a last resort no one wins in court except the lawyers!

[ljmathias]

Like any business, there are some bad apples in with the mostly good ones.  Previous owners of the land adjacent to ours had exactly the same problem outlined here, but when they asked, there was no dickering, no offer to "make things right or better," nothing but "we want to haul logs across your land and up your driveway."  I told them no since the neighbor is a greedy land owner who possess about half the county- his father bought it during the depression and story goes he paid fire-sell prices.  Anyway, after they finished logging, I looked over their handiwork- what a mess!  The tore up every patch of clear space on the land they did have access to and left it that way: if the owner of the land doesn't even get his property back into shape after, what chance would I have had.  Oh, and unless you get it in writing with some people, word of mouth is hard to prove and harder to get honored.  On the other hand, I know lots of loggers who are honest, hard working and completely above board... and that's the good news.

Lj

[Piston]

My father owns a tract of 120 acres that is landlocked.  There is a nice wide snowmobile trail that goes through an abutters property and right into his land.  He wanted to get the land logged to improve the land but the neighboring landowner won't work with him, and now the 120 acres sits idle and is unable to be improved.  I personally don't feel like the neighbor is being reasonable but I may also be biased.  I also feel that if the roles were reversed, my father would work with the landowner and allow access. 
Some people are just more generous and willing to get along than others.  Some people just like the feeling of having the 'upper hand'

I would allow the guy to use the road for access, with some sort of guarantee that it will be left in the same, or better, shape than he left it, but that's just me.

[Cedarman]

As a philosophy, when you give someone something for free, they treat it like the value you put on it.  Zero.  If you charge something reasonable and have it in writing, then people tend to be more responsible.
And as RR said, Trust, but Verify.

[Ron Scott]

Determine what reasonable improvements are needed for your road to handle the heavy logging loads and amount of use. Give the logger a written easement with your terms at a reasonable price. Have the logger post a reasonable cash bond on the road to ensure their performance in using the access road. The cash bond is returned after the job is completed and all conditions have been met in a satisfactory manner.

Check out the logger's performance with others with references to ensure their reliability before you issue the road easement. You will want your access road left in a condition so that it is suitable for use by two wheeled drive vehicles when the work is done.

[SwampDonkey]

Just an experience here. The last time dad allowed access across land to a parcel of absantee owner land (lived off in the states), dad showed the logger where he was to travel. By the time he was done logging, he had 3 roads across potato field packed hard like cement. We also had 20 acres of wood stolen and the line trees all cut. He also cut on every one else surrounding that property. Not the landowner's fault, but the logger is a known timber thief. His personal property is all guarded by Shephard guard dogs. Nice way to live.

[johncinquo]

Thanks for the input, I'll keep it all in mind when working on this further. 

I can tell you, "Good will" don't pay the rent.   If it were 1950 and we were all neighborly, I might be inclined to just say "go ahead" and leave it at that.  Not in this world.   The other land owner does not live on this land, or anywhere nearby.  He owns it as an investment, he logs it off and makes money. He has sectioned off all the lots around the edge and sold them over the years and now there are houses on them.  One or more of those could have been his access.  His one remaining area that touches a road is under water now and was long ago.  He does not have a long term plan to live, farm, or use the land other than an investment. If he were to pass away, his family would simply auction or sell it off.  He charges for hunting rights on it every year to people who don't live nearby.  I put up new No Trespassing /Hunting signs every year and mark it off to keep them where they are supposed to be. 

I have a neighboring land owner who is a long time family friend.  He wanted to log off his back 20, and could have done so by going through his own land.  He would have to make a passable trail and clear a landing.  I gladly let him use my road and thought nothing of it.  I also drive his boat, share some beers, and chased his daughter a time or two back in the day.  I understand the difference between being neighbors and doing business. 

The loggers don't bother me.  That's their job, and its what they do to feed their families and keep the government taxes paid.  I am sure they could do a decent job, or the worst.  I don't know what the other land owner told them, so I won't make any determinations on their part until I find out.   I have thought about what I would want if it fell to them to provide me with something.  I have a spot I want cleared out for a feed plot.  I would just have them clear it out with their equipment and call it good. 

I don't need my land logged, the road is fine, and can't think of anything else I could use.  Cash soothes the soul and they still take that at the grocery store!  I am full up on good Karma, birds sit on my shoulder and sing me a song when I walk down the street. 

I talked with a local forestry guy and asked him some general questions, he finally asked what area are we talking about.  He knows most of the woods and land nearby and has quoted for jobs all over the area.  He knew the section and even knew where my deer blind is.   His "guestimation" was the land owner would get about $22,000 to $25,000 for the area we are talking about.  I asked him what he thought, and he said put up a gate, FAST!  He was joking around, but we were thinking just about the same thing. 

I dunno if maybe it is my year for easement and crossing land to come up, but I have an entirely different situation as well.  I purchased a piece at the county tax sale.  I did my research in advance, and knew the piece had an easement all way to it across two other pieces. At one time it had all been owned by one gentleman, and he had cut it up and given some to each kid, and now some of the grandkids have some of them.  Well I guess one of them who lives in Detroit forgot to pay the taxes or just couldn't and it went for sale.   I purchased it, and sent a letter to the other property owners to discuss access.  There is a two track that leads through their land to my piece, but it is about 140' from the property line.  My easement is for 66' wide from the property line.   I asked if I could use the two track, clean it up a bit to be able to drive down it without scratching up the truck.  I want to be able to go hunt deer there, and from my land I have access to State land and there is a big swamp back there, just full of ducks calling my name.   They told me I could not use the two track, so I advised them I would be clearing the easement.  All 66' wide of it.     Boy we got some discussions going after that.    Making a long story short, I am either buying them out, or they want to buy me out.  I should get slightly more than triple what I paid.  None of them live nearby, the old homestead is starting to decay and fall apart.  They all live in Detroit and none have been here in over 5 years.  I don't see the attraction of them wanting it back, but to each their own.  If they buy me out, I'll take part of my proceeds and go shoot ducks in South America this Winter. 

[asca65290]

Interesting story, johncinquo.  I agree with you about charging him a price to cross your land, should he need to do so.  Makes logical sense to me.  Keep us posted on what actually happens.  I'm very curious to find out.  Please share all the details!

[johncinquo]

Well after several interesting and entertaining conversations, we have an agreement.  The temporary answer is the logging company is going to buy a 6 month easement for $1000 cash.  I am not sure how they are passing this along for the price of the logs or work.  The logger seemed very reasonable and it was no big deal to him.  He came directly to me to discuss it all make sure what the land owner was telling him was what I intended.  I have a written agreement for the easement, and to have the land returned to its reasonable original condition, minus a few side trees and brush.  He was actually apologetic, he thought the two track was on another persons property, and went to them for permission to cross it.  She has no idea what is hers, and has some dementia going on now.  The owner did not want to lay out the money, which was really not all that surprising.   We are going to meet again, and talk further about a land swap, and now he actually wants to sell his entire parcel to me.  I have too many other projects and irons in the fire right now, but it is good knowledge to have for the future.   

[asca65290]

Thanks for the update.  That sounds like a good result.

[T Welsh]

Good new.s to hear. landowners some times are in it for the quick cash, and us poor ole logger boys get caught in the middle. really good that you talked to the man thats going to harvest. Tim

[Banjo picker]

John buying land is a lot like buying antiques...If you really want it ...you have to get it when its availiable.......Tim

[WDH]

Tim,

You are so right. 

[Magicman]

My Dad always said that "opportunity knocks once, then kicks you in the rear and walks away".   

How many times have we seen that happen 

[WDH]

Johncinquo,

Go buy that land. 

[snowstorm]

Johncinquo,

Go buy that land. 

  x2      i bought 75ac last year for half the asking price.....just happened to be in the wright place at the wright time

[Coon]

Go buy the land..... it's an investment with a win-win situation.  You sure don't want to have to pull that foot out of your backside later on down the road for not buying it when you had the chance.

[johncinquo]

If it were just a buy-or don't buy decision, I'd be all over it.  Right now its a cash flow problem.  I have purchased 3 houses in the last 6 months, and only one is paying any money back right now.  The rest are still in renovation stages.  The one I did have ready to sell, the buyers had to do a land contract with me, so there is no big payoff for 5 years, just a monthly check.  Can't pay cash on a deal like that with a monthly check.  It is 120 acres, so its a deep dig into the cash pot, and its just land, no income stream from that except the lumber every 10 years.  As long as I own my land, his is worth a lot less to anyone else. 

Funny thing is, we talked about his plans for the land and stuff in general.  I am a financial planner and do estate planning, so I automatically ask questions like that.  He wants to sell, and use the cash to pay for any needs in retirement.  I asked if he was interested in charitable giving, if I could show him how it could still provide for his needs.  We are going to meet again and discuss it further.   Someone like the Nature Conservancy or one of our local land preservation groups could end up with a nice piece of land for everyone to enjoy.  I worked on a deal like this about 10 years ago, and it turned out well for everyone involved.  If he were to donate that land to something like that, I would grant a free perpetual easement to them as well.  It would be a win-win-win situation.   The main reason I want the land is to protect myself from having houses and neighborhoods go up behind me.  He just wants the money out of the place, and then anyone could walk and enjoy the land as well. 

I did end up selling my other parcel.  I am headed out West with the Family to visit Gramma this fall, and working on plans for a bird hunting trip to S. America in the Winter.  Right place and right time with some cash paid off well. 

[36 coupe]

Years ago I gave permission to a fellow to cross my land to get to his land locked logs out.All I asked was a few loads of gravel to fix a wet place in the road.He left a pile of beer cans and bottles , many oil cans and bean and sardine tins. they dug a good sized  hole to get a small dozer off the truck.They stole 3 of my trees that were nowhere the boundry.A good size pile of ash and oak logs were left to rot.My east boundy is a mile long and most of the land beside me has been cut over.The mess they leave is awful plus the amount of good fire wood they destroy is  unbelievable.I looked at a lot where a friend and I cut fire wood 6 years ago.Its hard to tell that wood was cut there.Took a long walk to look at my hemlocks a long the brook and the red oaks on the back of the lot.I take what I need for firewood and a few logs for my band mill.

[WH_Conley]

Good and bad in all. We have some loggers around here that I would give permission to cross and not even bother to go check on them. We also have some that if I even thought they looked at my property I would be standing guard.

[SwampDonkey]

There seems to be someone interested in my woods as I have had 2 realestate business cards stuffed in the door casing over the last year. I know the agent, he helped sell dad's farm. But I have a lot invested in my woods and future plans. It's my stomping grounds, and they couldn't pay me enough.

[thecfarm]

I get that too swampdonkey,letters in the mail too. I guess they go the the town office and see that I own 170 acres and want them to log it.
I did have one guy that wanted to go across my lower end of the field to the other owners land. he was going to make a yard at the bottom of the hill on the land owners side.Would of been alot easier for him. I said no. He does not respect the land at all. I walked a few of his jobs. What a mess. probably knowing him he would send a truck across the fields right after a night of rain. He was going to log it with horses.

[SwampDonkey]

The neighbors sold stumpage one time because they were in hard times. We had a tree plantation along the whole woods line for 35 acres or so. The logger figured a corner of our tree plantation that also borders the road would make a nice big yard for their wood.