Stairs design help

[sbishop]

Hi everyone, i'm getting ready to start planning my stairs design but i'm no expert...so i thought i should ask for help

I don't need nothing really wide, i was thinking at most 30", can i go smaller?.  i've attach a drawing with all the info provided i think. I'm not sure how to calculate the stairs with a landing (turn or winders?).

Any help is much appreciated!!!! and if you have any suggestions, let it rip!



Here's a pic of the opening


Sbishop

[icolquhoun]

first some questions....then maybe some advice!!!
you show a circle designating a woodstove being in the same "bay" as where the stairs will go.  Will this be a doublewalled insulated stovepipe or singlewall?  What's the recomended clearance on your stovepipe to anything burnable?
What does code dictate as far as width, rise and run?
how much space from the floor to the bottom of the windowsills shown in your pic?  that can influence where a landing might go, since it's often done, but not pretty to cover a window with your staircase.
How much room do you need around the woodstove at the first floor level?  That can dictate where your stairs go/start from.

One piece of advice is unless you want to overly complicate things, i'd shy away from winders, although i just finished a set in my house (with housed stringers), i don't think i'd tackle them again, and I'm fairly comfortable with fine finish carpentry.  everything has to be PERFECT in the winder section of steps.  level/plumb/square in all three dimensions or huge gaps will open everywhere, where normal stairs aren't as picky.  One last thing with winders is when making the treads from solid wood, they move A LOT, which means no matter how nicely you finish them, gaps will open and they will creak on you over the seasons.

I'd honestly do a set of steps like you have drawn with a landing in the corner.  first figure out what rise/run is comfortable, start at the top and see how many you can fit in working your way to the windows.  Make your landing at width/size of your tread's width, so say 30"x30" (if this meets code).  then turn the corner and finish the rest of the drop to the first floor. 

example: 92 1/2" from finished first to finished second floor= 10 risers at 9 1/4 inches which is pretty common for interior stairs.  you'll then have 9 treads in the stairs.  Say you make the run 10" with an 1 1/4" nosing (again, somewhat common) 
take your 102" measurement and subtract your landing size from it.  (say 30"+ about 2" leeway for skirtboards/trim/etc.) and you get 70" to fit stairs in.  70/10run per tread gives you roughly 7 treads above the landing (6 if you count the landing as a tread), puts your landing about 30" off the ground (hopefully under your windowsills at that height) and now you need two treads below the landing to complete the steps

alter your rise/run according, but thats how i'd quickly figure out the steps before drawing a scaled drawing of them

[Jim_Rogers]

Total rise divided by number of steps gives you top of tread to top of tread height.

Maximum rise from one tread to the next should not exceed 7 3/4".

If you divide 92.5" by 12 you get 7 11/16" so you're good to go with that.

Minimum tread depth should be 10" which includes the nosing.

10" x 12 treads = 10' of run. If you have a nosing on the tread that over hangs the riser then the run is less.

If you go to this site: http://www.stairways.org/ you can download a pdf document that is too large for me to post here called: Visual Interpretation of the Stair Building Code 2009 International Residential Code. However this pdf document is not free.

I must have gotten a copy from someone or it was free when I found it.

But it shows all the stuff you need to know about stairs and stair building.

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

The drawing shows a landing where the stairs turn. This landing height is figured as if it was a regular stair tread height. The landing has to be as deep as the stairs are wide.

If you are doing something that meets code I think your stairs have to be 36" wide.

[icolquhoun]

 


assuming 30" wide stairs, but as Jim stated, 36" is code almost everywhere, and 9.25" from tread to tread, what i said is common, is in older historic home around here where i have done all my work on.  i was unaware 7 3/4" was now code.
thats a REALLY small rise!

[Rooster]

Looks like you are in good hands...But I do have a couple of questions:

What is the roof/ceiling pitch directly above the stairs?

What is the heigth directly above the top step to the bottom of the ceiling?

Is this building subject to inspection?  Permit?  Do codes really apply?


Just sayin',
Rooster

[sbishop]

Thanks everyone for the responses...wow you guys are good.

Lets see if i can answer your questions.

1. No codes (no inspection, the camp doesn't exist, it's in the middle of nowhere) 
2. Theres lots of room below that middle window, see picture ( i don't have a pic of the inside, but its the middle one of the pic outside)



3. The clearance of the stove is 36", which i should have lots of room as i don't have the stove pipe in it yet and if i have to put an elbow to move the stove location a bit so be it!

My biggest issue is for a straight set of stairs i think i could have figured it out...put when you put the landing into the equation, where do you stop the first set of stairs...and how do you measure for the second set of stairs....all having the same rise and run. To make things simple...the landing will be the same width and length has the wide of the stairs..does that sound right?

Sbishop

[Radar67]

As stated in one of the other responses, the landing is treated as one of the stairs. If your stairs are 30 inches wide, your landing will be 30x30 and have the same rise as the rest of the stairs.

[jander3]

 



Simple.  No thinking, just peeling and cutting.

[Jim_Rogers]

To make things simple...the landing will be the same width and length has the wide of the stairs..does that sound right?

Sbishop

yes that sounds right.

If you have an open first floor plan or area, then the starting point would be the opening at the top of the stairs. Using a string you can drop a plumb bob to the first floor and get the location of the upper floor to the first floor. Then you can measure and layout your locations on the first floor.



Now to actually cut the stringers is another story all together.....

[ely]

i did mine pretty much like jim says, except i dont cut stringers. i lay mine out and screw cleats to catch the risers and treads. on stairs i always try and stay close to 7.5 risers and 11.5 treads.

i avoided any space issues inside my house and just built an outside set of stairs that is 5 feet wide. and yes i have been what if'd to death by everyone that has seen them.

bottom line is i done it my way.

[Jim_Rogers]

Now to actually cut the stringers is another story all together.....

If you need some help with that, I can help you figure it out as well.

You need to decide a few things to figure out how it's all going to go together.

First thing is, are you going to do the landing? so you can turn as you walk up the stairs?

Next is, the top stair, is it going to be the top floor or another stair cut into the stringer. You need to decide this in order to figure out how you're going to attach the stringers to the second floor support beams.

Jim

[sbishop]

Jim, thank you very much for your help..much appreaciated (yes, i do need help) 

yes i'll be doing a landing with a turn (L Shape)

As far as the top stair,  i do believe i'll have to step forward (when upstairs to come down) not step down right away...in order to be able to attach the stringers to the log cat walk. (does that make senses?)

here is a picture of the cat walk (old pic)



Thanks
Sbishop

[jfl]

1. No codes (no inspection, the camp doesn't exist, it's in the middle of nowhere) 

Even if it is in the middle of nowhere, you might still want to build it to code, as generally, the code is there to make things safe.  I had to ask to rebuild my stair because it was not up to code and it was unsafe.

If you want canadian building code, I think I have 1995 and 2005 version, but it is in French.

jf

[Jim_Rogers]

Sbishop:
I'm busy the next two days and can't spend any time on this right now.
sorry, but maybe Monday?

Jim

[sbishop]

Jim, no rush...i'd rather have it right the first time 

jfl, i agree with you...it will be built safe except its a small cabin and i don't think i need 36" wide stairs.

Sbishop

[Jim_Rogers]

Are you going to have riser boards? if so what thickness? 3/4"

How much is the thread going to hang over (known as the nosing) the riser? 1"

How thick are the threads?

Are you or do you want to go with 10" deep treads (including the nosing)?

I need to understand these things in order to layout the stringers correctly.

Jim

[sbishop]

Jim,

i've got 2 options for finished threads and risers.

1. i've got some tamarack that has been sawed now for a couple of years that would look pretty nice on the stairs. rough cut is at 1", i could plane it down to 3/4 or even 7/8"" finish, this could be used as risers and threads.

2. Use 1 1/2" spruce for threads and 3/4" spruce for risers.

1" hangover is fine, as far as the deep of threads, what ever we(as you you  ) can come up with. I'd like to get the easiers stairs in the room i've got to work with all having the same distance risers on both sections, i guess that would be everyone's wish!

Much appreaciated Jim, if you need more info, i'm out of here tonight for a few days (gone fishing!!!!)

Sbishop

[Jim_Rogers]

Ok, well I was hoping you'd make a final decision on what wood you'd be using.

But as you haven't, I did. I have made a drawing showing your stair treads as 7/8" thick with 3/4" riser boards and 10" treads from nosing to nosing as required.

I put one tread at the top of the stringers so that they could be easily hung onto the existing beam that is shown with the red line in the photo.

Here is that drawing:



I set the limits left to right of 102" and I set the height limit as 8'. Also I set the finish floor height at 92 1/2".

I also drew a 30" limit line for the width of the landing to see where the stairs would meet this limit.

Then starting at the top, I put on one stair tread to make the step out requested. I laid out the stairs with the 7/8" thick treads and 3/4" risers giving the correct spacing so that there are 10" treads. And the correct rise from top of tread to top of tread.

This allowed me to see where the stairs would meet the landing.
My idea was to make the landing wide enough for the stair stringer to sit on the top of the landing and support the stairs. With the stringers being hung from the side of the beam at the top.

This kind of worked ok, until I drew in the 6' 8" line that is required to have enough head room going up the stairs. And that didn't work good at all.

This 6'8" head room shows that you can have only two risers until you get to the landing.

I then tried a different idea. That is I took out the top stair so that you step off the walkway onto the stairs. This makes it is little more difficult to attach the stringers to the support beam but can be done. as shown here:



For the landing all that did was move it one stair down. And we still don't have the required head room.

So basically I'm stuck.

You have to decide on what part of the design you want to change.

Here are your options as far as I can see it.

You can go with design two and have low head room.

We can create design three and make the landing the correct height for the head room and the top run of stairs will be very steep. It would be a 8 1/2" rise and the thread would be about 8" deep.

as shown here:



Let me know what you think.

Jim

[sbishop]

Hi Jim, thanks a million for all your work but i've got a bigger issue now.

My wood stove which is ICBO (approve in the US) but not approved in Canada has to be treated has a non-approved stove. So the clerances must be 4feet around the stove.

I'll have to make a trip to the camp and figure out where i can put the stove relative to the stairs because of this. I'll keep you posted. THANKS again eh!

Sbishop

[Rooster]

My wood stove which is ICBO (approve in the US) but not approved in Canada has to be treated has a non-approved stove. So the clerances must be 4feet around the stove.

Would you have enough clearance if you were in the States?

[sbishop]

yes but all this means is i have to figure out where i can put the stove...probrably just move it a foot away where the stairs are going but i'll have to double check! another 2 1/2hrs drive 

Sbishop

[clif]

Just a thought, but I have had to put a dormer in to get the head room when a  loft was put in later.  Or since you are not legal any way you could put in a "Monk stair" http://bottleworld.net/?p=157

[jdtuttle]

Sbishop,
Not sure if it's a building code issue north of the border but in NY we use refrence standards. There is a reduction chart for approved fire resistance walls. For example; 1/2" cement board with a 1" air space allows for a 66% reduction in wall separation. 48" x 66% = 31.68". You  could be approx. 18" from a wall. Of course I don't know what is applicable where you are. Maybe worth asking.
jim

[sbishop]

Jim,

sorry for the delay but i've got some better numbers now.

Total rise 92 1/2
total width 102 (run)

outside wall height to ceiling is 94" (a foot out from the wall is 102) for head room. i'm going to go with 24" wide stairs. they are only going to be used to go up and down (not worried about taking furniture up and down)

i've tried doing some calculation following yours and what i've got so far is 12 threads of 8 11/16 and 13 risers of 7 11/16. (first step at top of stairs is a step down) ...3 risers to the landing...10 risers for the rest.

is my calcualtions correct and are these steps ok? steep?

THANKS Jim

Sbishop

[ljmathias]

Those are pretty narrow treads, means you mostly go down kinda sideways stepping (rough treads on the house I'm building are about like yours and the 5/6 year old grandkids won't go down without help)- but you do what you gotta do to make it fit.  Good luck.

Lj

[Jim_Rogers]

I've got to go out right now, but I'll check these dimensions out later today.

[Jim_Rogers]

Ok so using your dimensions I entered them into my drawing to represent the roof slope.

Then I made the riser and thread the sizes you wanted. Starting at the top beam I copied them out to make them come down until they touched the floor. And they pretty much line up ok.

I then made the landing at the third step top and checked the clearance to the sloped roof.

You could get by with this. I have a chart somewhere that tells what a steep stair slope is in degrees but I can't find it now.

See attached.

[sbishop]

Thanks Jim,

i was playing around with the numbers and i came up with this, which is really close to your drawing.

Can i move the top stringer closer to the wall where it lands on the landing(in your picture)?  in my drawing i've got the treads at 9 9/32.

looking at my drawing can i cut the stringer off at the third step and building my landing based on that (landing size of 27 27/32 plus enough room to attach stringer by 24" wide)



i'm i confusing anyone yet?

One last question.... 2X12 or 2X10?
Sbishop

 

[Jim_Rogers]

2x12 to be safe. That's what I used in my drawing.

[sbishop]

Got the stairs installed on the weekend...with all the planning that went into this...it was actually a piece of cake!

THANKS Jim and everyone else that helped!

I'm all done working on the camp for another year but i will putting on a railing first thing in the spring!

[Jim_Rogers]

How do they feel to walk up them?

Did you have enough head clearance?

Jim Rogers

[sbishop]

Jim, lots of head clearance...over 6" and they feel great.....wife was impressed....thats all that counts!

[Jim_Rogers]

It's really important that they feel ok when you walk up and down them. If they don't then you can trip and fall or stumble going up or down.

These are the reasons why they are so well inspected to see if they meet code.

[sbishop]

My father, who turned 70 years young this summer even tried them out with no issues.