Five Ethanol Myths, Busted - By Forrest Jehlik, Argonne National Laboratory

[Reddog]

we have mandated E10 here in my state.  We saw about a 18% decrease in fuel economy

We are not mandated here but for the most part all fuel bought here in MI will be 10% also.
The reason I asked is I have never seen more than a 1-2 mpg drop, some times even equal mileage when using E10 in my Ram15004x4. And I got similar results on a trip in June thru IA, NE, and KS with my 1000cc cycle. So I guess this is a YMMV 

[JimTwoSticks]

I think it's simple (is there such a thing?) chemistry that ethanol has less energy per unit of volume than traditional gasoline. It's not surprising that you would not see a sizable decrease in fuel economy using E10...there is hardly any ethanol mixed in! If your engine can handle it try E85 and report back if you lost a noticeable amount of range on a full tank.

Yes, sugar, whether through sugar cane or sugar beets is pretty efficient at producing ethanol but predictable yields produced year in and year out on nearly any soil in the US, through an almost idiot-proof process of applying fertilizer, pesticide and planting hybrid seed is not in the cards for either of them. Add in the ridiculously large influence of the corn lobby and agribusiness and you get corn as our major feed stock for ethanol.

[SPIKER]

I know that my OLD car ran 14~16MPG  on 100% gas and 12 on e10, 20% worse mileage.   now my truck used to get 22MPG now I'm lucky to get 16 MPG on E10.   that is closer to 28% worse mileage.   The Car similar was 26MPG now 22MPGwhich is better closer to ~16% less mpg.   Ohio is seems that you cant get anything anymore that is not E something without getting Sunoco Racing fuels.

reading up on the links above much of the info seems to be propaganda from most heavily one side...   I know a lot of farmers work with others live in Ohio corn belt and see first hand just how much $ the farmers are NOT getting from the high prices of corn.   People saying that the farmer is making a killing is outright mistaken or worse.   while the farmer is getting more for his crop the input costs have skyrocketed.   Costs for equipment, fertilizer, fuel are anywhere from 2 to 4 times what it was circa 2007.   There are also worse weather with boon/bust in many parts of the US.   Think any of the major river deltas will get anything off their crops this year???   ya corn wheat dont grow under water & rebuilding the ground & equipment that was damaged/destroyed will take years.

I've already had 3 damaged small engines from Exx fuel eating up rubber lines and one car as well that went thru fuel pumps left & right (older car with mechanical pump on engine the rubber would get ate and dump fuel into block eventually damaged rings/bearing when fuel soaked the oil nearly burnt it up.  sold it for scrap price...   I would much rather see Synthetic Fuels made by using Nat Gas (gas to liquid tech is very old and efficient with several players including some big oil companies.)   

Fuel efficient diesels would be a much better for all around performance mileage as well as ease of use & direct savings than the Exx debate.   Imagine that 1/2 the small cars & trucks were 35~40MPG instead of 25 MPG? that is nearly 50% less fuel used for same mileage driven.

I'm looking at VWs now that get 50+ as a trade in for my honda SUV that gets 16 mpg on E10...  3 times the mileage hummm  car should pay for its self in 7 years...

Mark

[SwampDonkey]

One of the foreign car manufacturers just unveiled a new model car that gets better mileage than the hybrids. Redesigned engine. 

[shelbycharger400]

i remember my 95 4 dr 5 spd sohc 2.0 neon... i beat it... and still got 36 all city,  mostly 38 to 40 highway... at 65-80 mph every day... shifting at 4k and such. 

this 10 percent is a joke...   few years ago...   in 2001,  we did a test... 25?  of us purchaced  a gal of gas.. at different places.  The Higher octane gas.. ie 90/93   had 12-15 percent ethanol.

Trick is with E85,   is either run turbo,   and boost the daylights out of it,
Or Do what your supposto do with an alchohol motor...   alchy motors need HIGH compression... ie over 10 to 1.       optimum is 12:1     my neon was 9.8:1 stock.   , most of the e85 cars out their are running in the 9 range..   (what a JOKE)   and alchy.. requires stainless steel for every part in contact with the fuel.    They did recomend special oil for the motor as well.  as alchy motors produce more water in the crankcase... that is no joke.          Bring back M85 !     methanol makes way more power than ethanol.       

The ethanol plants state run... i have yet to here how much natural gas they use to heat the vestles to 160 deg +,   its in the 5 bill range just this state alone.         I have been by that plant gary c.. talks bout.     

[Al_Smith]

At one time the state of Ohio required the listing on the gas pump at the service station stating the blend mix . Evidently that is not a requrement any more .
 During winter for example the gasoline contained a higher percentage of ethanol .The milage went down a tad but nobody had a fuel line freeze up like back in the 60's when you had to use "dry gas " else you would get a frozen fuel line .How many remember  "Boron " with ice guard ?

I'm not saying it's all bad ,it's just the way they are going about it .FWIW the more modern engines are by design made to run higher percentages of ethanol than the good old '57 Chevy .

Mumbling and grumbling ,it's not going to go away unless somebody comes up with a way to burn water for auto fuel .Then hang on to your hat they will tax the water you drink on their way to taxing the air you breathe .

[tyb525]

Ethanol is an alternative to oil, yes. But it does nothing to reduce the price of gas, or improve the economy in any way. If all the corn in the USA was made into ethanol, it wouldn't come close to replacing oil. We need corn for other things. Some other alternative needs to be found, instead of wasting time and money on ethanol.

[Kansas]

41% of all corn grown in the world is grown in the USA. 20% of that is exported. Ethanol does not affect the price all that much, from any studies I have seen. Yes, it has an impact. But its not a huge impact. Sugar beets are grown here in the states. But sugar production is heavily propped up with subsidies. We pay for it in higher costs for candy and other products as consumers. I would think, but don't know for sure, that if sugar beets were a better alternative than corn for ethanol production it would already be being used. Brazil uses sugar cane, and can produce ethanol at a lower price than we can from corn. However, it seems to me the marketplace needs to dictate eventually the ethanol market. Anything that means less oil imported from another country that can compete with that oil price wise needs to be promoted and exploited. All those ethanol plants employ a lot of people. Rather have them working than someone in Saudi Arabia.

[Norm]

Some good points Kansas. Seems that us that live and work with corn crops might have a better idea of what's going on then those that learn it on the evening news.

I always laugh when someone talks about the powerful corn lobby. No such thing as farmers are loath to band together for anything, much too independent for that. Rates right up there with corporate farms which are so few they are not worth mentioning.

[SwampDonkey]

One thing you over look is oil price whether it comes from the US or Canada, Mexico or Saudi Arabia is a global commodity and having it all come from home doesn't make much difference. We export way more of it than we consume in Canada, but our prices don't go down. So if that's the line of thinking, that domestic oil means cheaper at the pump, I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Sure those Saudi's can influence the price, but so can we in Canada or Mexico. One of the troubles is supply disruptions, that could be alleviated by new additional refineries, but the companies know full well that doing that cuts into their profits when other refineries and rigs are shut down for damages and maintenance. How many times have the prices spiked when damages occur to drilling rigs and maintenance shutdowns? A whole bunch of times. There is lots of lobby against new refineries and drilling within your own borders.

[JimTwoSticks]

Norm,

I always laugh when someone talks about the powerful corn lobby. No such thing as farmers are loath to band together for anything, much too independent for that.

Who said anything about farmers being in the "corn lobby"? The corn lobby is primarily made up of middle men and end product users (corn oil, syrup, etc. etc.) who have a vested interest in as much corn as possible coming off the field for the cheapest price (read - subsidized).

[Norm]

I understand what you are saying but all too often the farmers get lumped into that group. To be honest even they are not that huge of a lobbying force if you compare it to for example the oil, financial or energy lobbies.

Big oil and their buddies at WSJ have done a great job of making sure their lock on you gas cap is only opened by them.

[Al_Smith]

The people who make out on grain are those such as Monsanto,Central Soya and Arthur -Daniels -Midland .Sometimes the speculaters in the grain markets  . The farmer may or may not. It's a gamble,weather,production costs etc can send many into bankrupcy in just a few bad years .

On a forum that no longer exists my little handle said "sawman of the cornfields " that was in all seriousness .I'm surrounded  by amber waves of grain at certain times of the year .Not so bad except during bean harvest time when I have an allergy to the dust .BTW the corn is just barely knee high so we'll have to see how that plays out about Sept-Oct .

[tyb525]

Hearing the name Monsanto makes me sick. They have a big part in killing off the small farmers.

[Reddog]

Some good info on the current problems of using Sugar beets and Sugar cane.

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2010/12/16/sugar-beets-may-push-corn-out-of-ethanol-production/

[Norm]

Good article Reddog.