Five Ethanol Myths, Busted - By Forrest Jehlik, Argonne National Laboratory

[submarinesailor]

One of my monthly readings comes from Argonne National Labs.  One of the articles this month is about Ethanol and the many myths surrounding it.  Here is the link to the article:  http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/06/five-ethanol-myths-busted-2/#more-36218.

Bruce

[Dean186]

Thanks for posting - it was a good read.

Below is a differing opinion.  Note: It is dated 12/09 and is an opinion piece.

Ethanol Review as Alternative Fuel - Pros and Cons of Ethanol - Popular Mechanics

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/4237539?click=main_sr

[Al_Smith]

Interesting ! However one should think that if they were serious about it they would have used a higher producing method that using corn .Sugar beets perhaps or cane .

What the article failed to point out is the fact that a majority  of the corn type ethanol plants go bankrupt within a year and a half of going into production .These are  being bought up by 3 or 4 concerns for about a dime-20 cents on the dollar of what the original costs were . Kinda makes a person wonder what's going on here .

[DouginUtah]

If it's on the internet it must be true and unbiased.   

[submarinesailor]

Al,

You are right in that a bunch of the plants are out of business or are bankrupt.  This article talks about this issue and how they are being brought-up by the big boys:  http://energybusinessdaily.com/oil/alternative-fuels/bankrupt-ethanol-plants-for-sale-2/

The numbers are not quite as high as the talked about but there are a bunch.

Bruce

[Al_Smith]

GO ethanol more commonly known as "greater Ohio ethanol " was sold to Gaurdian for I believe 5.5 million dollars .They still owed 150 mil to the contractors .Not to mention bilking thousands of people out of at least 50 thou a piece as investers in the project .My dumb azzed brother in law was one of them .

It was in operation 5 months .I kind of knew it was a scam from day one having known the organizers behind the deal .Fact is I talked my dad who was still iving at the time out of investing a couple hundred thou in it .My mother is eternally greatfull I talked some sense into the old man .

Now I'm somewhat of a skeptic of the new so called green movement that seems to be making headlines all over the world .Not that it's not a good idea just the fact that every con man and carpet bagger in the world has their fingers in the pie .The above is only one example that I know of personally .

[Woodchuck53]

Just a question on using Ethanol in our chain saws. My local mechanic for my saws and my Mariner outboards dealer doesn't recommend using it at all. Haven't tested it but have also heard it will settle out in stored gasoline. Has anyone else heard this?

[mad murdock]

Woodchuck53, you heard correct! if you use ethanol gas, use a stabilizer, or ethanol neutralizer (valvtec makes a good one), you should be able to get it at a good autoparts store, or marina.  In our state, they sell non-ehtanol premium, it is more expensive than regular, but worth it, as you do not have to worry about having it in occasional use equipment.  If ethanol gas is left in a fuel system of an engine over a period of time, it will ruin seals, o-rings, and diaphragms, causing many headaches the next time you want to fire up that piece of equipment, necessitating re-doing your fuel system seals, o-rings, and carbeurators, since it also varnishes up worse than regular non-ethanol gas.  The alcohol entraps water in the fuel, which over time will precipitate out of the fuel when left over periods of non-use, causing corrosion, and other related problems in the fuel systems that it is used in.  buyer beware!  I do not buy into it one bit.  The ethanol scam is just that.  automatic 15-20% decrease in fuel economy, which translates to an increase in gas tax income to the state and federal government without increasing the actual "tax" rate.  Because wonderfully, when you burn ethanol gas, which in a lot of states is mandated, you get to live with worse fuel economy, necessetating buying more gas..... which equals more gas tax paid by consumers, thus more tax income to the gubment.  Just my .02 worth.  Lets get common sense rules on the books, so we can get real gas in this country once more, and stop all the b.s. with this ohony "green" movement.  follow the money, it will lead to the truth!

[Al_Smith]

On that one must consider than most componets of chainsaw such as crankcase seals and diaphragms are normally made of buna-n .This material is impervious to petrolium based products but not so good with alcohol .

Stihl for one is making replacement seals that evidently are more robust and certain carb rebuild kits have used alternate materials which seem to hold up better .The ethanol thing is just something that like it or not we are just going to have be forced to live with .

Now I think it sucks with a half life but the gov really doesn't care what I think .

[Woodchuck53]

Thanks guys, I looked around and have found one station here close to home that doesn't carry Ethanol. Good to know.

[SwampDonkey]

My manual for the mower says to make sure to use it up or drain it all out if the mower is in storage. I use mid-grade in my saws as it has no ethanol. Just this year they started putting it in regular gas here in Canada. Also good mix oil from Stihl or Husky have stabilizer already in it.

Strange thing though, the pumps say "may contain up to 10 % ethanol", not that there is 10 % for sure.

Those big oil companies act like any processor and the ethanol plants are just a supplier, so it's in the oil companies power to bankrupt them one at a time. They don't have to buy from your ethanol plant, and will ship it in longer distance until the loans get called in on your operation. Then offer a low ball amount of cash to gobble your operation up. It's done with farms so oil is no different.

[Al_Smith]

Oh I think there is almost a case for criminal intent here .In the areas around these ethanol plants the processer contracts huge amounts of grain at slightly higher prices than the local grain buyers pay .Then when they default the farmer is stuck up the creek without a paddle,no money .In turn he has huge depts and defaults on loan payments to seed companies ,fuel suppliers and loans on the farm land and equipment .

It's a master plan ,devious as it is . I see the same thing happening with wind farms .

P T Barnum ,the greatest liar of all times might be deceased but his legacy lives on in a different age using different methods designed to seperate the fool from his money .Perhaps a new term could be derived from this . Walletectomy !

[Gary_C]

Oh I think there is almost a case for criminal intent here .In the areas around these ethanol plants the processer contracts huge amounts of grain at slightly higher prices than the local grain buyers pay .Then when they default the farmer is stuck up the creek without a paddle,no money .In turn he has huge depts and defaults on loan payments to seed companies ,fuel suppliers and loans on the farm land and equipment .

It's a master plan ,devious as it is . I see the same thing happening with wind farms .

I think you need to see an eye doctor as your vision is not very good. To take your view of one ethanol plant and project it on the entire industry is just plain faulty vision.

I live in the heart of ethanol country and I can say just the opposite of what you are claiming is true. Within a 25 mile radius there are three ethanol plants that have been here for many years and have never defaulted on anything. One was built by farmer investors before there was any ethanol subsidity and has provided good markets for corn and return for the investors. Sure the excesses of good markets and profits brought about overbuilding of plants and some of the later ones had a rough time of it and did not survive. But they are the exception in the industry, not the rule.

Same can be said for wind energy. There are wind farms all around me and another being built right now. From what I hear, the return on investment is great and we sure can use energy that comes free from the sun and does not have any emissions other than a few feathers occasionally.

So if you do not like these home grown energy sources, go over to the middle east and kiss an Arab Sheik's feet and beg him for more crude oil cause it's going to take a lot more crude oil than we are getting now. 

[Al_Smith]

That sir which you submitted is an opinion such as what I said .Different perhaps but still an opinion .

You live on one side of the grain belt,I live on the other  . For that matter though I live in an area which at one time was the hottest area in the world in oil production .Well most of the oil is still down there .They know it's still there .

Now on this idea I'm blind sided I'd suggest you do a little research on exactly how many ethanal plants have in fact gone belly up and how many people have lost millions of dollars over this thing .I submit to you it's not just one on the outskirts of Lima Ohio .

Then again it's a free country,believe what you want and I'll do likewise and not question your "eye sight "  as you have mine ,thank you very much .

[Gary_C]

Now on this idea I'm blind sided I'd suggest you do a little research on exactly how many ethanal plants have in fact gone belly up and how many people have lost millions of dollars over this thing .I submit to you it's not just one on the outskirts of Lima Ohio .

I have neither the time nor the desire to find the true facts to disprove your vision. It's your theory, you do the research to support your ideas.

I am well aware of the problems created by some large investor owned operations in the ethanol industry like VeraSun Energy. But their problems do not paint the entire industry with the same color of paint.

So as you said, believe what you want, but when you try to make believers of others, you can expect to be challenged if your ideas are not well founded.

[Woodcarver]

We had a farmer built ethanol plant near here.  It went belly-up years ago, less than a year after it went into production.

Here's a more recent example: http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/18489/. VeraSun Corp and Pacific Ethanol, two larger ethanol producers, went into bankruptcy at about the same time.

[Reddog]

  The ethanol scam is just that.  automatic 15-20% decrease in fuel economy,

Are you talking  E10, E15, E20, E85 or E100?

[Jeff]

Some of you need to go sit in the shade, drink a cool glass of water and then think about what you want to say before you say it. Questioning someone's eyesight is a bit out of line and in effect is a personal attack. Gary, if you said that to me I would grin and one-up you some how, but remember what we have here. A bunch of different people from all walks of life that may or may not see things the same way and may or may not react favorably to a good natured poke.

[mad murdock]

  The ethanol scam is just that.  automatic 15-20% decrease in fuel economy,

Are you talking  E10, E15, E20, E85 or E100?

Reddog,  we have mandated E10 here in my state.  We saw about a 18% decrease in fuel economy in our Ford Expedition when the change went in.  We answered by downsizing our rig, which helps, but it sure is ridiculous that they have to mandate stuff like this to force Joe Sixpack out of their big SUV, and into some spam can that will end up being your coffin if you wreck.  My boss has a newer Avalanche with the flex-fuel engine, he put in E100 a few months back to it out, and it was cheaper, by .20/gal than the regular E10, and fuel mileage suffered drastically, he went from 17-18 mpg down to 13 mpg on the E100. 

[Al_Smith]

Differences of opinion aside,another side of the story .

More times than not the farmer is not the one who sees record gains for the fruits of their labor .Last year was exceptional with corn prices .However increased seed prices,fuel and fertilizer prices and other costs have eaten away at the gains they have made .

It was a grand plan perhaps to use ethanol production to allow use of what was kind of an excess of grain . Maybe in some areas of the country it has worked  not in Ohio unfortunately .BTW there are in fact 3 ethanol plants within 40 miles of my home also .

To address this dependence on imported or domestic oil I believe it was Argentina if I'm not mistaken  that took steps years ago .They were smart enough to use sugar beets instead of grain .Funny thing is we can grow beets also .Fact is at one time they were grown in vast numbers in these parts when there was a sugar processing plant in operation .

Makes more sense to me to feed corn to cattle  or make whisky out of it than auto fuel .I'd much prefer a nice T-bone steak to high-tech corn moonshine to run my automobile . Lawdy what we have now is 3.60 a gallon blended gasoline and 10 dollar per pound steaks ,geeze .
 

[Reddog]

we have mandated E10 here in my state.  We saw about a 18% decrease in fuel economy

We are not mandated here but for the most part all fuel bought here in MI will be 10% also.
The reason I asked is I have never seen more than a 1-2 mpg drop, some times even equal mileage when using E10 in my Ram15004x4. And I got similar results on a trip in June thru IA, NE, and KS with my 1000cc cycle. So I guess this is a YMMV 

[JimTwoSticks]

I think it's simple (is there such a thing?) chemistry that ethanol has less energy per unit of volume than traditional gasoline. It's not surprising that you would not see a sizable decrease in fuel economy using E10...there is hardly any ethanol mixed in! If your engine can handle it try E85 and report back if you lost a noticeable amount of range on a full tank.

Yes, sugar, whether through sugar cane or sugar beets is pretty efficient at producing ethanol but predictable yields produced year in and year out on nearly any soil in the US, through an almost idiot-proof process of applying fertilizer, pesticide and planting hybrid seed is not in the cards for either of them. Add in the ridiculously large influence of the corn lobby and agribusiness and you get corn as our major feed stock for ethanol.

[SPIKER]

I know that my OLD car ran 14~16MPG  on 100% gas and 12 on e10, 20% worse mileage.   now my truck used to get 22MPG now I'm lucky to get 16 MPG on E10.   that is closer to 28% worse mileage.   The Car similar was 26MPG now 22MPGwhich is better closer to ~16% less mpg.   Ohio is seems that you cant get anything anymore that is not E something without getting Sunoco Racing fuels.

reading up on the links above much of the info seems to be propaganda from most heavily one side...   I know a lot of farmers work with others live in Ohio corn belt and see first hand just how much $ the farmers are NOT getting from the high prices of corn.   People saying that the farmer is making a killing is outright mistaken or worse.   while the farmer is getting more for his crop the input costs have skyrocketed.   Costs for equipment, fertilizer, fuel are anywhere from 2 to 4 times what it was circa 2007.   There are also worse weather with boon/bust in many parts of the US.   Think any of the major river deltas will get anything off their crops this year???   ya corn wheat dont grow under water & rebuilding the ground & equipment that was damaged/destroyed will take years.

I've already had 3 damaged small engines from Exx fuel eating up rubber lines and one car as well that went thru fuel pumps left & right (older car with mechanical pump on engine the rubber would get ate and dump fuel into block eventually damaged rings/bearing when fuel soaked the oil nearly burnt it up.  sold it for scrap price...   I would much rather see Synthetic Fuels made by using Nat Gas (gas to liquid tech is very old and efficient with several players including some big oil companies.)   

Fuel efficient diesels would be a much better for all around performance mileage as well as ease of use & direct savings than the Exx debate.   Imagine that 1/2 the small cars & trucks were 35~40MPG instead of 25 MPG? that is nearly 50% less fuel used for same mileage driven.

I'm looking at VWs now that get 50+ as a trade in for my honda SUV that gets 16 mpg on E10...  3 times the mileage hummm  car should pay for its self in 7 years...

Mark

[SwampDonkey]

One of the foreign car manufacturers just unveiled a new model car that gets better mileage than the hybrids. Redesigned engine. 

[shelbycharger400]

i remember my 95 4 dr 5 spd sohc 2.0 neon... i beat it... and still got 36 all city,  mostly 38 to 40 highway... at 65-80 mph every day... shifting at 4k and such. 

this 10 percent is a joke...   few years ago...   in 2001,  we did a test... 25?  of us purchaced  a gal of gas.. at different places.  The Higher octane gas.. ie 90/93   had 12-15 percent ethanol.

Trick is with E85,   is either run turbo,   and boost the daylights out of it,
Or Do what your supposto do with an alchohol motor...   alchy motors need HIGH compression... ie over 10 to 1.       optimum is 12:1     my neon was 9.8:1 stock.   , most of the e85 cars out their are running in the 9 range..   (what a JOKE)   and alchy.. requires stainless steel for every part in contact with the fuel.    They did recomend special oil for the motor as well.  as alchy motors produce more water in the crankcase... that is no joke.          Bring back M85 !     methanol makes way more power than ethanol.       

The ethanol plants state run... i have yet to here how much natural gas they use to heat the vestles to 160 deg +,   its in the 5 bill range just this state alone.         I have been by that plant gary c.. talks bout.     

[Al_Smith]

At one time the state of Ohio required the listing on the gas pump at the service station stating the blend mix . Evidently that is not a requrement any more .
 During winter for example the gasoline contained a higher percentage of ethanol .The milage went down a tad but nobody had a fuel line freeze up like back in the 60's when you had to use "dry gas " else you would get a frozen fuel line .How many remember  "Boron " with ice guard ?

I'm not saying it's all bad ,it's just the way they are going about it .FWIW the more modern engines are by design made to run higher percentages of ethanol than the good old '57 Chevy .

Mumbling and grumbling ,it's not going to go away unless somebody comes up with a way to burn water for auto fuel .Then hang on to your hat they will tax the water you drink on their way to taxing the air you breathe .

[tyb525]

Ethanol is an alternative to oil, yes. But it does nothing to reduce the price of gas, or improve the economy in any way. If all the corn in the USA was made into ethanol, it wouldn't come close to replacing oil. We need corn for other things. Some other alternative needs to be found, instead of wasting time and money on ethanol.

[Kansas]

41% of all corn grown in the world is grown in the USA. 20% of that is exported. Ethanol does not affect the price all that much, from any studies I have seen. Yes, it has an impact. But its not a huge impact. Sugar beets are grown here in the states. But sugar production is heavily propped up with subsidies. We pay for it in higher costs for candy and other products as consumers. I would think, but don't know for sure, that if sugar beets were a better alternative than corn for ethanol production it would already be being used. Brazil uses sugar cane, and can produce ethanol at a lower price than we can from corn. However, it seems to me the marketplace needs to dictate eventually the ethanol market. Anything that means less oil imported from another country that can compete with that oil price wise needs to be promoted and exploited. All those ethanol plants employ a lot of people. Rather have them working than someone in Saudi Arabia.

[Norm]

Some good points Kansas. Seems that us that live and work with corn crops might have a better idea of what's going on then those that learn it on the evening news.

I always laugh when someone talks about the powerful corn lobby. No such thing as farmers are loath to band together for anything, much too independent for that. Rates right up there with corporate farms which are so few they are not worth mentioning.

[SwampDonkey]

One thing you over look is oil price whether it comes from the US or Canada, Mexico or Saudi Arabia is a global commodity and having it all come from home doesn't make much difference. We export way more of it than we consume in Canada, but our prices don't go down. So if that's the line of thinking, that domestic oil means cheaper at the pump, I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Sure those Saudi's can influence the price, but so can we in Canada or Mexico. One of the troubles is supply disruptions, that could be alleviated by new additional refineries, but the companies know full well that doing that cuts into their profits when other refineries and rigs are shut down for damages and maintenance. How many times have the prices spiked when damages occur to drilling rigs and maintenance shutdowns? A whole bunch of times. There is lots of lobby against new refineries and drilling within your own borders.

[JimTwoSticks]

Norm,

I always laugh when someone talks about the powerful corn lobby. No such thing as farmers are loath to band together for anything, much too independent for that.

Who said anything about farmers being in the "corn lobby"? The corn lobby is primarily made up of middle men and end product users (corn oil, syrup, etc. etc.) who have a vested interest in as much corn as possible coming off the field for the cheapest price (read - subsidized).

[Norm]

I understand what you are saying but all too often the farmers get lumped into that group. To be honest even they are not that huge of a lobbying force if you compare it to for example the oil, financial or energy lobbies.

Big oil and their buddies at WSJ have done a great job of making sure their lock on you gas cap is only opened by them.

[Al_Smith]

The people who make out on grain are those such as Monsanto,Central Soya and Arthur -Daniels -Midland .Sometimes the speculaters in the grain markets  . The farmer may or may not. It's a gamble,weather,production costs etc can send many into bankrupcy in just a few bad years .

On a forum that no longer exists my little handle said "sawman of the cornfields " that was in all seriousness .I'm surrounded  by amber waves of grain at certain times of the year .Not so bad except during bean harvest time when I have an allergy to the dust .BTW the corn is just barely knee high so we'll have to see how that plays out about Sept-Oct .

[tyb525]

Hearing the name Monsanto makes me sick. They have a big part in killing off the small farmers.

[Reddog]

Some good info on the current problems of using Sugar beets and Sugar cane.

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2010/12/16/sugar-beets-may-push-corn-out-of-ethanol-production/

[Norm]

Good article Reddog.