Author Topic: Mafell mortiser (Read 2480 times)

nicolas · « **on:** July 04, 2011, 01:03:25 pm »

Hello! I have some questions for anyone familiar with Mafell tools. I'm thinking of buying a mortising machine. I'm debating between the 110v and the 220v. Any suggestions?

Also, I've heard that the european and us models are the same, but in Europe they use the 220v or 380v. Any one have any experience with the European models? I will be traveling over there soon and may have the opportunity to pick one up, much cheaper.

TIA,
Nicolas

dukndog · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2011, 01:23:26 pm »

Welcome to the Forums, Nicolas!!

Haven't used the Mafell's but in Europe, the Hz is 50 I believe and ours in the US is 60hz. I think u can get a converter to change the Hz but unsure.

DnD

nicolas · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2011, 03:27:01 pm »

thanks for the welcome
yes the hz are different, my planer is a europeen model 380v, 3phases, I've always heard (and verify with the planer)that the voltage loss and the hz increase will result in less power and more speed, but in the case of a regular single phase tool, I don't know. I have also heard that the mafell tools are designed to work on both power. If you look around there is quite a few affordable used or new mafell tools in europe, I would hate to spend $4500 when I can get the same one for a lot less.

ljmathias · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2011, 05:32:29 am »

Welcome! Can't speak to a mafell mortiser but I have a Makita and it is very functional- great at getting lots of wood out so you can do the more precise chisel work necessary. The price on a Makita is a whole lot less then a Mafell, but there may be a significant difference in performance that justifies the higher cost- can't say personally but there may be someone on the forum who has used both and can address that. Problems I've had with the Makita (and may apply to both): you have to learn the machine and how to get close to the line but not too close (easy for the chain to carve into what you really want to keep); doesn't work well or at all on curved side timbers (flat part for the stand to rest on is required and square sides to clamp on pretty much required also); you have to start at the left side and work right (chain will jump and gouge if you try otherwise, and you can't just take out pieces here and there but work systematically from one side to the other and forward and backward); it's heavy and awkward to use so don't even think about using it other than on a flat piece lying level below waist high. Don't forget these are chain saws with all the dangers associated with a very sharp set of fast moving teeth.

Lj

nicolas · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:45:50 am »

thanks
I don't really like the makita for the reasons you mentioned and the fact that you have to clamp it. The other machines have their chains turned 90 degrees which allow for a clean end on the mortise, you don't need a clamp and you can go from left to right or right to left. They are very expensive but I have seen some that have been used every day for 30+ years.
What to choose? 120v or 240, they sell both, it would be easier with the 120, standard extension cords, 120 always available, but I am sure the 240 has its perks, what would they be?

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2011, 10:51:50 am »

Quote from: nicolas on July 05, 2011, 09:45:50 am

I am sure the 240 has its perks, what would they be?

You should be asking these questions to a Mafell salesman. He has the answers.

nicolas · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2011, 03:43:17 pm »

Thanks Jim, I followed your advice, they said that the 240v model is the same as the europe version but the 110v is US only, they also said that the difference between the 110v and 220v are negligible. I still would like to hear the opinion of fellow timberframers with experience on the 110v vs 220v.

witterbound · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2011, 04:55:22 pm »

I'm a makita guy. Only tried the Mafell for a couple of mortices. I guess I thought it was less accurate, and I didn't like the fact that it wasn't clamped. Made me feel kinda like I was sailing without a rudder.

routestep · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2011, 07:12:06 pm »

I have a Protool morticer. Similar to the Mafell.

I bought it new and I cost about $3500, don't remeber for sure.

I had to replace the plug cause it had a European plug.

I bought a generator that had 240 volts.

I bought an extra chain that cost about $400 or so. Have to mail it out to a guy in Maine who sharpens the chains.

I cut like you stated above, no clamping and makes a clean cut where the brace goes into the mortice.

It cuts a 1 7/8 inch hole single pass, so I got a 1 3/4 inch chisel. It has a beautiful motor driving the chain. A little grease and some WD40 keeps everything lubed.

It will rock if the wood has dried out a little so I place a thin shim under the stand as necessary to stop that.

I still use a boring machine and T augers when more convenient because it is a heavy machine.

Hope that helps. The back woods are calling so I'm gone.

Oakwright · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2011, 05:04:03 am »

Greetings from the UK: I'm a Timberframer, a member of the Timber Framers Guild, and a member of similar organization based in the UK called the Carpenters Fellowship.

http://www.carpentersfellowship.co.uk/

By co-incidence we, the Carpenters Fellowship, are also having a debate about the relative merits of Chain Mortisers on our own discussion forum, on the same website as above, feel free to drop in and have a read.

I have some experience in operating and buying Morticers, I have bought over 30 mainly Mafell, (but also Ryobi, Makita, Wadkin and Hundegger) starting in 1990 when I brought one home from the US to the UK. (Bizarrely, the easiest way to get Timber Framing Power tools in the UK used to be by buying them from the USA, - either in person, or mail order via John Libby / TimberWolf Tools)

Anyway, the relevant point to this thread is: The 50 Hz / 60 Hz issue isn’t a problem, or hasn’t been a problem to us in 20 years of operation.

As to voltage – I'd suggest you use whatever is the most convenient to you.– we can and do buy and use 110 Volt Mafell tools here in the UK - We use portable Power tool Isolating safety Transformers that step down the voltage from 240 V to a (center tapped to earth / ground) 110 Volts to significantly reduce the risk of death by electrocution.

There are of course always deals to be had on Flea-Bay, (and lots of our people seem to spent time on the German version) But I’d be surprised if you could save significantly by buying your Mafell in the UK. Taking into account the total coat of importing into the US (including customs duty if they get you!) You would also need to think about what happens if it goes wrong. The normally very helpful Denny Hambruch at Mafell USA might be less than amused to find you have a warranty issue with something you bought here?

Total cost of ownership is another issue – We used to be able to buy 5 Ryobi mortisers for the price of one Mafell, they used to be available with a huge range of bars and chains, great for repair / conservation work and for sinking-in metal flitches or weird engineer-specified steel connectors, and like all those that clamp – you can operate them upside down (This is after every thing’s gone T*ts-up!)

And lastly if you do really need more power, we have 2 second-hand 3 Phase Mafell morticers for sale.

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:54:32 am »

Oakwright:

Welcome to the forestry forum.....

Thanks for posting...

Jim Rogers

logman · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:46:42 am »

I've used the Mafell and the Makita. I prefer the Makita. You have to get different bars to cut more than one size mortise with the Mafell. You can buy two Makitas for what the Mafell sells for.

nicolas · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2011, 09:25:40 pm »

Thank you all for the answers, I have never heard about protool before, same as mafell but a little more affordable, I also found out about a makita very similar in design but not available in the US the model is kc100z I believe. I have never had a problem making wide mortises with the old mafells but it seems to me we all like the machine we learned with. Oakwright what do you guys do with your mortisers to have to buy 30 of them? Don't ask me to loan you a tool! If it is your own tools that you are not planning on selling them, there is no sales tax at customs; I have brought my handtools, planer and a few other things for a reasonable price. Denny at mafell US seems like a great guy, first time in years that a salesman was very knowledgeable and helpfull about his products. In Europe it seems like it is possible to buy a used machine which would suit me fine. Oakwright what model is it that you are selling? I will be right across the channel in a week and I think I could find some room in the suitcases for a nice old type S.

shelbycharger400 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2011, 10:30:25 pm »

oakwright..

Quote

As to voltage – we can and do buy and use 110 Volt Mafell tools here in the UK - We use portable Power tool Isolating safety Transformers that step down the voltage from 240 V to a (center tapped to earth / ground) 110 Volts to significantly reduce the risk of death by electrocution.

in electrical class we learned.that is backwards.... 110... is considered the most dangerous ..due to it shocks your muscles, and you cant let go. the higher voltage 240... is actually "safer" if you can call it that..in effect that the voltage will push you away... few years ago... i accidently touched a 270v 3phase insulated wire... well aparently it had a break in it, instantly droped what i had in my hand.

Brad_bb · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2011, 12:18:04 am »

nicholas,
I must ask, as no one else has, what is your intended use? Professional timber framing cutting mortices every day? Or hobby, cutting your own house frame?

I, like many others, am a fan of the old boring machines. No cords, easily portable, no flying saw dust to get in your eyes. Nice wood chips, in tune with the wood, and only 30 percent slower than electric. With a sharp boring bit, it's not bad at all and actually preferable to many. Something to consider. I originally bought a Makita, but I like the boring machine more now.

dukndog · « **Reply #15 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:01:00 am »

Well put Brad!! and probably the best response yet!

nicolas · « **Reply #16 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:13:05 am »

Well Brad I am originally from France where I was a timberframer for 15 years, then I moved to the US and worked in construction, new and old, some timberframes, quite a bit of restauration, moved old log cabins and timberframes, and right now I am planning on doing more frames and fun stuff. It is kind of hard to know how much I would use a mortiser. I never tried a boring machine, I usually beg a friend for his Makita, use a hand auger, or my trusty chainsaw.

submarinesailor · « **Reply #17 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:41:24 am »

Nicolas,

Could you update your profile so we know where about's in Virginia you are. I checked your web site and I could be not too far from you.

Bruce

nicolas · « **Reply #18 on:** July 08, 2011, 12:43:08 pm »

Bruce I live on the Orange/Madison county line, we are pretty much neighbors.

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #19 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:49:52 pm »

I'll be bringing boring machines to the TFG Conference in VA, in November for sale. You could see and or try/buy one then.

Jim Rogers

submarinesailor · « **Reply #20 on:** July 08, 2011, 06:29:58 pm »

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on July 08, 2011, 05:49:52 pm

I'll be bringing boring machines to the TFG Conference in VA, in November for sale. You could see and or try/buy one then.

Jim Rogers

Jim - the conference is about 25 miles of our house in Manassas and I'm planning on being there. Hope to see you again.

Bruce

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #21 on:** July 09, 2011, 05:30:54 am »

Thanks, Bruce. I hope to see you again as well.

Oakwright · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2011, 03:13:07 am »

“what do you guys do with your mortisers to have to buy 30 of them?”

I suppose We cut a lot of frames, is the simple answer. We frame 99.9% in green Oak and build traditionally jointed houses, some Post and Beam, some UK Barn Style, and quite a few half timbered / Black and White traditional English Manor house or cottage frames.
Last week we out 24,912 board feet of Green Oak though the shop, 2076 Cubic feet (our preferred measure) or roughly 190 cubic meters – Have a look at our website, www.oakwrights.co.uk.

“Oakwright what model is it that you are selling?”

Have a look at this rather sorry looking example on German ebay

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mafell-Kettenstemmer-Typ-S-inkl-Mwst-/260813405183?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item3cb9b0bbff

3 phase – very heavy very robust

I also have the spec and handbook (thanks Denny) which I will try to attach

“in electrical class we learned. that is backwards.... 110... is considered the most dangerous”

I don’t have the knowledge to answer that really, our 110 Volts are made up of 55 V & 55 V as a result of the secondary of the isolating transformer being center tapped to Earth / Ground. I suppose the thinking is that when you get exposed to a live cable the shock is going to be 55V. Its very universal here in the UK, broadly speaking all pro tools are 110V and all Home-owner DIY are 240V.

piller · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2011, 11:40:35 am »

Quote from: Brad_bb on July 08, 2011, 12:18:04 am

...
I, like many others, am a fan of the old boring machines. No cords, easily portable, no flying saw dust to get in your eyes. Nice wood chips, in tune with the wood, and only 30 percent slower than electric. With a sharp boring bit, it's not bad at all and actually preferable to many. Something to consider. I originally bought a Makita, but I like the boring machine more now.

I like the idea of hand cranked boring machines. Do you have a source for quality 1-1/2" and 2" auger bits that will work with these machines?

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2011, 01:17:17 pm »

Right here on the forestry forum in the for sale section is this list:

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,50674.0.html

check it out, I'd be happy to help you...

Jim Rogers

nicolas · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2011, 06:31:23 pm »

Thank you all for your replies, I learned a lot. Jim what is a TFG conference about? I am off to the old world, I guess we will see if I find some tools over there, now that I know most of them will work here. Oakwright you are doing some amazing work, you are a lucky guy.

Brad_bb · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2011, 08:50:47 pm »

Jim sells good stuff. I've never been disappointed.

dukndog · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2011, 09:41:05 pm »

I second that Brad_bb!!!

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2011, 07:42:35 am »

Thanks for your kind comments about our tools.

krusty · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:15:53 pm »

Hummm I would want to take any comment from such an electrical teacher with a grain of salt....240 V in North America is still 120 V to ground with each 120V wire out of phase with the other. So if you grabbed 1 of the hot 240V wires with your bare hand and bare feet it would only be 120V through your body. Now if you grabbed each phase of the 240V one in each hand well then you really would have 240V in your body but most people get shocked through the ground connection. Plus it is really current that kills not voltage and the better ground rod you are...well 50V could kill you.

BTW interesting comments on the mortisers....as I always thought the makita was inferior and would like to do a side by side comparison! For now I will stick to my 2" Milwaukee bit in a drill and my boring machine when the drill is just too noisy

shelbycharger400 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:49:03 pm »

I don’t have the knowledge to answer that really, our 110 Volts are made up of 55 V & 55 V as a result of the secondary of the isolating transformer being center tapped to Earth / Ground. I suppose the thinking is that when you get exposed to a live cable the shock is going to be 55V. Its very universal here in the UK, broadly speaking all pro tools are 110V and all Home-owner DIY are 240V.

not true... 110 is 110, it dosnt split... it alternates back and forth ON both leads. here in us...at 60 hz the center tapped to ground...is neutral.

krusty... the comment came from a licenced electrician. cant remember what his name was.. yes..your right about the 2 phases of 240.. 2 leads of 120. i cant remember how the instance occurs... that you wind up getting full voltage through you... but i do know that current code is now 4 wire 240 vrs old 3 wire 240. new stoves and dryers comming that way now. basically 2 ground sources now.

I will dig through my elect stuff. at a threshold of a certain voltage... current or amps as we know it.. nolonger matters.
certain voltage...with low amp will kill you dead. i think it was 480..

do know... 240... way better/ in the aspect that it uses less amps, less watts... (which our meters nearly spin off the wall) cheaper to run, and will cold start a 2 stage air compressor at 30 below... wheras 110 wouldnt even start on the single stage.. so that got rewired for 220.

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Author Topic: Mafell mortiser (Read 2480 times)