Big Honkin' Walnut Log, Little Mill

[WDH]

You pros with hydraulics deal with the big logs all the time, so it is old hat to you.  With the manual mills, the big ones can be a real chore.  This walnut log tested the absolute limit of my capability and that of my equipment.  My tractor could barely pick it up.  At first it only picked it up about 1", but I was able to get it high enough to get to the mill. 

 



Without the big Super Logrite cant hook, I would have been up the creek without a paddle.  This is an incredible tool, the best $ that I have ever spent.  If you have a manual mill, you have got to have this Super Logrite.  With an ordinary cant hook, I could not hope to load and turn this log.  I also debarked the log to reduce the butt diameter since this log was cut this spring and the bark could be pried and peeled off.

 



This log is bigger than the spec limit of 28" for the LT15. 

 



Sweet success!  This log should make some really nice 8/4.

 



 

[Jeff]

When do the sawin commence?

[laffs]

even with hydraulics those are sometimes a chore. last week i had a hemlock log 30"x16' it dressed out at 364' i got 12, 3"x8" x16s and some side lumber. i should have got more it was poor planning on my part.

[WDH]

Jeff,

I have some consulting work to do tomorrow and Wednesday, so I plan to begin sawing Thursday.  The log has a split in the small end that goes into the log about half way, so that will hurt the yield some.  I need some high quality 8/4, and I should be able to get plenty.  It is nice to already have the log loaded on the mill so that while I am away I do not have to think about how I am going to move it, load it, and whittle it down so that I can saw it on the mill  .

[Bibbyman]

At least it's nice and round and smooth.  Usually the big ones have butt swell and big knots to deal with.

[Texas Ranger]

Uh huh.

[metalspinner]

WDH,
I'll trade you four oak logs that look just like that for your one walnut.  What a deal for you!  I'll come by your place tomorrow and make the trade.  Those nice oaks will be waiting for you when you get home.

Oh, and since you already have it loaded up, I'll just go ahead and saw it out while I am there...

[pigman]

 WDH, be sure to keep turning the log to keep the split at the edge of the boards. I am sure it will be easy to turn after it has flat sides.
Call the stout guy a few miles north of you, he wants to see a sawmill operate.

[fishpharmer]

Wow! What a nice log you have there.  Was it a "yard" tree?

[WDH]

Chris, 

I would not want to take such advantage of you on front of everyone here on the Forum  .  However, if a wood sprite were to come secretly and saw the log up in perfect lumber before I get back home, that is OK  .

Pigman,

Here is a better view of the split.  I would appreciate a discussion on how best to break down this log.  The goal is to maximize the best grade 8/4 in thickness.  Maybe some 6/4 too.  I was thinking of sawing it into two pieces by putting the blade right in the longest side of the split and sawing in the path of the split.  Then, saw each half like in modified quartersawing.  That will not maximize the width of the boards, but as 8/4, too wide and they are a bear to handle.  Anyway,  I would like to hear how others would deal with this split to maximize yield and to maximize the best quality 8/4 lumber.

 



James, 

It was not a yard tree.  It came from a bottomland in Upson County, GA growing on the first levee right off a good sized creek.  The tree had two perfect 10 foot logs in the main bole, then it deliquessed into branches.  When it was felled, it came down on a big branch in such a way the the stress of hitting the ground split the trunk.  In fact, the second log split into two halves, and the split then extended halfway through the first log.  What a shame.  The guy who felled it apoligized, but I told him that I did not see that coming either, and that I would have not done any better.  The way that tree had to fall, it was just wanting to split.

[DouginUtah]

Danny,

For sure, I had to look that one up. Probably the first time that word has been used on this forum.

deliquesed: verb: botany--to form many small divisions or branches.

Good word. 

[kderby]

Deliquese, how do you say that?  I will show that word to my wife while we are playing scrabble

I would be intimidated by that log and I have a hydraulic mill.  Are you going for the cathedral grain?  What will the 8/4 be if things turn out well?

Inquiring minds (nosey people like me ) want to know!!!

Thanks for sharing the process. 

Kderby

[Ianab]

Well my mill works different, but what I would be doing in your situation is to start with the split vertical. Take off the first slab, and a couple of boards, edge them later if there is useful narrow boards in them , or chuck them if it's not worth it.

Then roll it 180deg and repeat.

Now you should had a 2 sided cant, narrow enough for the mill to handle, that you can stand upright and just saw to the deck, discarding a couple of boards from the cracked centre. But you get all the nice wide boards that it's possible to recover. And you only have to move the log 2 times.

Ian

[Chuck White]

Usually when I have a log that has a split, I either start with it horizontal or vertical, usually vertical.

In the end, I will have the split horizontal and saw down to it then flip the log and saw down to it again.

That way most of the damage is contained in one board!

Your log is different though, the split is at 2 different angles, so just take your pick!

All in all, nice log though!

[Ron Wenrich]

I put my splits on an angle.  That keeps the split on the board edge and gives me the widest board I can get.  Grade yield is better on wide boards, as you'll get more cuts that will make a higher grade.  Defects put on the edge of the board can be better edged out. 

The way the log is currently loaded will cause all the boards on that face to be cut in half.  Being that its walnut will not hurt grade yield quite as much as if it were oak.  You're allowed narrower boards that would fall into higher grades in walnut.  But, an 8" face would bring that side into having two 4" boards.  Put that split on an angle and you recover the 8" board.  To pull grade on those 2 boards, they would have to be clear.  The 8" board would be allowed more defect to still make grade. 

It will require more turning.  As the split starts to creep up on your face, you'll want to turn it to minimize the impact on the board being sawn.  You turn to the 90° face and cut back to where the crack starts to cut into your face and where you would lose some volume. 

This method recovers the most volume, grade and value.  Other defect factors would also have to be considered.  But, this log appears to have very little defect. 

[pigman]

Pigman,

Here is a better view of the split.  I would appreciate a discussion on how best to break down this log. 

Ron explained how I would have you saw the log. I am not sure I would want to turn the log that much on a manual mill.

[Bibbyman]

Some of our best logs are veneer or grade that logger has split badly or in two. 

To get the most and best grade lumber, we would also saw like Ron described.   

If it were a common sawlog they we were just making farm lumber from,  we would saw “through and through” with the split horizontal. 

[LOGDOG]

Wow. What a whopper! Looking forward to seeing the lumber that comes from him.

[tcsmpsi]

I see.  LT 15 and WDH are about to get a notably challenging workout. 

And, though it might cause some to mortify, you likely know I would have taken a chainsaw to it first.   

Seems like you already have a particular need....yours?....or, another's? 

[Dodgy Loner]

tcsmpsi, it sounds to me like Danny is running out of 8/4 walnut to sell

Ron's description for sawing that log sounds like a good option. It would be an even better option if the crack ran in a straight line. Then again, sawing parallel to the crack would also be a better option if the crack ran in a straight line . But don't expect me to feel bad for you for having to deal with this awful situation .

[WDH]

Doug, deliquesscence is a little used botanical term, but it is perfectly descriptive.  Conifers generally do not express this characteristic since they usually have a main bole that continues to the terminal bud with side branches.  Many hardwoods, with the exception of the poplars, aspens, etc, (which grow more like conifers), have a central bole that at some point explodes into whack of branches that make the crown round versus cylindrical.  I was not trying to be fancy, it is just the perfect word that fits walnut to a tee .  

This wood is destined to be sold.  I cut, air dry, and sell hardwood.  I have walnut, cherry, sycamore, red oak, white oak, red maple, sweetgum, red cedar, green ash, yellow poplar, and a little mulberry and persimmon.  The LT15 works well because I am focused on quality and not production.  I do not cut enough volume to make a bigger hydraulic mill pay out, and custom sawing is not in my business plan.  My strategy is to harvest hardwood from my property and gain the value lift from turning a sawlog that might weigh a ton and have a stumpage value of $50 into lumber that might yield 250 BF at a value of $500.  That is how I get value out of my forest.  Plus, I actually enjoy interacting with the woodworkers as I am a woodworker myself (that is how all this got started in the first place).  I only focus on good quality hardwood as I have found cutting low grade logs into lumber to be marginal.  But I do cut some as I have to do that to manage the forest.

I have a good inventory of 4/4 walnut, but not much 8/4.  I learned the lesson not to cut 8/4 from the lower grade portion of the log; instead, cut it from the best because low grade 8/4 does not sell.

The input is thought provoking, and I am already scrapping my original strategy in sawing this log.  Keep the comments coming.

[tcsmpsi]

Oh, you know I do, dodgy.  I feel so for him.  

Of course, that hickory he let stand and die....but then, Ike has left me plenty of woodpecker fodder that took such a sustained beating.

Yeah, I'm talking about you.  

Frankly, casting an eyeball on all that 'fun', I'm a bit pleased I'm no closer than I am.      (sorta)

[Ron Wenrich]

If you saw parallel to the crack, you're just basically live sawing the log.  You might get lucky and only have a little bit of waste.  As you walk back through the log, your defect will start to show in the center of the board.  Your boards will also be more prone to cupping. 

The options are to rip the defect out of the center or try to sell wide boards with cup.  There is an increased cost to the handling.  You still have to get rid of the defect, but it will be more concentrated.  Those will probably end up as stacking sticks. 

The good part of some of the boards will not have the typical plane sawn pattern that most hobbyists use in walnut.  You'll end up with some dabs of rift and quartersawn walnut.  I guess it would depend on your market.  If you're making turning squares, live sawing would probably work. 

[Larry]

I used to saw parallel to the crack but pigman convinced me of the error of my ways long time ago.  I now saw as Ron describes.  Much better method with higher grade recovery.

I always dreaded turning those really big logs on my manual mill.  Your log looks to be round so turning might be a bit easier.  Sometimes I would wrap a chain around the log and pull up with the FEL until I flipped it 180 degrees.  Made the second turn against the log stops easier.

[tomsteve]

boy, lust and envy are deadly sins and i'm experiencing em both! have fun makin dust with that one!

[WDH]

tcsmpsi, it sounds to me like Danny is running out of 8/4 walnut to sell

Dodgy has it right .

I am listening.  Very good input.  If I had the computer skills, I would diagram the options on the end of the log in the photo.  Anybody know how to do this to show the theoretical log position and sequence of cuts?  Grade may change the actual from theory, but it is a place to start.

[Jeff]

Rons method is also how I would saw logs with such a crack when I was running the mill. Always putting the crack in the part of the log that got edged off.

[WDH]

With the split in two planes, would you saw part of the log one way and the other another way?

[Ianab]

The crack at 45% is probably the best recovery, but also a LOT of work on a manual mill.

I'm guessing the log is too big just to saw "thru and thru" on that mill though, so it has to be turned at some point.

Being keen on avoiding work, this is how I would do it.

Log lined up with split approx vertical, and make your first couple of cuts, recover what you can.


Then flip it 180deg and do the same.


Now 90deg and cut the best wide 2" boards that you can get top $$ for. Nearer the centre, lower grade, so go to 1" and maybe rip them in to narrower boards to reduce cupping that might be an issue with that part of the log


Cut out the spit section for firewood.


Some more 1" low grade, and then some more good wide 2" boards.


Ron's method would give the most high grade wood, and that matters in a commercial operation where maximising income depends on working within the grading rules, and a larger automated mill would make it much easier to use that method. But if you are selling to woodworkers those 24" wide boards of high grade walnut is what they will pay a bit of a premium for. Makes for great solid table tops.

Pity that the log split  , but you just need to make the best you can of what you have there.

I hear what you are saying about turning a $50 log into $500 of boards. Doesn't matter if it takes all day, you are making money. And if you can cut desirable stuff that people cant just buy "off the shelf", bonus time.

Ian

[Tom]

My take is that there are more situations to consider than just the heart-shake.   When a tree has a heart shake (check/split) like that, the log is bowed.  The bow, in every case Ive seen, follows the horizontal plane of the split.   That is why I treat each side of the split as its separate entity.  You get the straightest and less-stressed boards by sawing such that the split is horizontally inclosed in as few boards as possible.  That means that the log generally produces more flat-sawn lumber than vertical grain.  Vertical grain, cut from the split-free sides of the log will have the stresses of a bowed log that has been cut from the side, and the boards will crook more than would have been expected.  While logs of this size are fairly equal on both ends, many will produce tapered boards if sawed from the side.  Sawed through and through from hump to saddle also produces runout, but the lumber can usually be equally trimmed to be of the same width from one end to the other. The fault might lie that there would be short boards.

A good rule of thumb is that a log is only as big as it's little end.  Lumber taken from the outside, until the cant is squared, will produce short boards anyway, or narrow boards if cut from the side of the bow.

I have found that most any lumber is annoying to handle if cut from the side of a bowed log.  Crook (excessive crown) is difficult to use.  A bowed board can usually be pulled down.

If I were to go after vertical grain in that log, I would look for it in the sides of the boards cut from hump to saddle.

While I can see timbers being more efficiently cut from a boxed heart, if the heart split is oriented diagonally, I've never been able to produce more good boards from orienting the split that way.  It makes it even more confusing when you realize that the split doesn't always follow the same plane throughout the log.

I generally favor Ianab's diagram.

[customsawyer]

I have done it both ways and it usually has  something to do with whether or not I have a edger close to the mill.
When you have a edger and a hyd. mill Ron's way is best for good grade lumber. If you have a manual mill then I would go with Tom's way.

[pineywoods]

Ouch, that big a log on a manual mill ! Last time I got one that big, I took a day off and added another hydraulic cylinder to the log turner..

[Dodgy Loner]

I have sawed several logs that big on an LT-15, but I always had a helper! I wish I was nearby to lend Danny a hand. I wouldn't mind watching Jake whittle down those monster pecans, either. The one good thing about that walnut is that it is as round and straight as you could ask for. The last big one I sawed was a post oak with a big, buttressed root flare. It took a lot of chainsaw trimming and a tractor to turn that sucker.

[Bibbyman]

We're all getting soft with our hydraulic mills.

 



Here is the larges walnut log we've ever sawn.   It's on our manual LT40 with 18hp B&S engine.

[WDH]

I guess that I will need to get some spurs to saw that log!

When I get back home today, I plan to do a little figuring on the end of the log with some chalk to understand how this split affects the two best options offered to saw this log an see which one seems best for the circumstances.

[metalspinner]

What do you gus think about splitting that log open all the way before sawing it?    That would certainly take out any guess work as to where that crack will end up.  From the looks of it, the crack wants to run out the side of the log.  The smaller split off piece can still be sawn into shorts or turning blanks. The rest of the log can be sawn in the usual manner once it's cleaned up with a few sawing passes.

I'm sure veteran sawyers can read what's inside that log - crack and all - but splitting it in half would reduce handling and edging of heavy boards on the manual mill.

[tcsmpsi]

Under all my circumstances, I would take a chainsaw through the primary rift, as it will be problematic wood close to it any way, I/mill will be able to handle it better, would give me a better look at what is actually there, and would be able to tell more about the secondary rift and how to best utilize.   I would be looking at resaw for the odd shape/smaller cuts.   But, that's my set up and how the time/value and risk weigh out for it.

Not currently having any walnut, I can see about 47 yrs of projects from that log.  Of course, lately I have been working smaller and smaller projects, with unlimited floaters around in my head, down to about the size of a gnat's wardrobe.   

Danny knows more about what he can and does market from such wood.   Opportunity for any decent walnut around these parts, is rare.

If'n I was close enough (or vice versa  ), I would be more than glad to help, and might get a few 'scraps'.   

[Ron Wenrich]

If you split with a chainsaw, you'll end up with a lot of quartersawn material.  Some species it would be a bonus, but I don't think so with walnut. 

[Dodgy Loner]

I personally love the appearance of quartersawn walnut (and quartersawn cherry and maple, for that matter), but you are right, most woodworkers will not actively seek it out. It seems to me, though, that sawing to keep the crack at the corners - since the crack runs through two planes - would yield a good bit of lumber with flatsawn grain in which the 'cathedral' is off-center. Personally speaking, I dislike off-center flatsawn grain and I would actively avoid it if I were buying lumber. I believe most woodworkers would consider rift- or quartersawn walnut to be preferable to off-center flatsawn.

That being said, it is likely my own lack of experience that prevents me from seeing how you would grade-saw this log and still maintain centered grain .

[Ron Wenrich]

Nobody says you have to have a centered log with 4 sides that are parallel or at right angles.  It could be 6 or 3 or 8 or whatever works.   A little more work from an edging standpoint. 

[customsawyer]

Talked with Danny on the phone and decided the best way to cut this log is for him to put it on a trailer and bring it with him when we do the pecan project.

[Dodgy Loner]

Good point, Ron. I couldn't get the 4-sided cant out of my head. There would be a little more waste when edging since the log is destined to be 8/4 lumber, but you could definitely keep the grain centered that way. Sounds like you could give this log to 10 different sawyers and it would get sawed up 10 different ways. Lots to learn from this thread for a neophyte like me

We will definitely need plenty of pictures when this log finally meets the saw!

[WDH]

The sawing angels have smiled upon me!

Sweet Providence! 

Serendipity in the sawdust!!

If you have a big honkin' log, act pitiful on the Forum, and have only a little manual mill, then a Sawyer Knight on a White Horse (or one with a LT70) might ride to your rescue (or have you ride to him)  . 

Jake (Customsawyer) called today and proposed to saw the big walnut with full hydraulics, a wonderful edger, and a penchant for beautiful women big logs  .  He said to haul it over and he would let the LT70 have at it.  Saved in the nick of time .

[Coon]

In other words you are saying that this thread topic needs to be changed to: "Rollin' a Big Honkin' Walnut Log, Off Little Mill"       

[WDH]

 

Yes.

[Coon]

What is the widest your throat will open on your LT15, WDH? 

[WDH]

26 & 1/2 inches between the left side and the right blade guide roller.  I could saw this log,  because when I cut some flat faces on all four sides, the cant would be a little less than 26".  It is 30" on the butt and 25" on the little end.

[Magicman]

I love angels.   

I have found that the best "rule" for sawing split logs is to remember that each log is an individual.  They make their own sawing/opening decisions.

[Jeff]

Danny, can we please have a photo of you riding your log? 

[WDH]

OK  .

I guess that is part of sawing the big ones.

[scsmith42]

Don't forget to wear your spurs in that photo....   

[Kevin]

Trailer it up to the pig roast where we can discuss the milling of it over lunch.

[WDH]

OK.  That way a number of people can ride that log.  Jeff may even put a mane and a tail on it  .

[Coon]

Thanks for the info Danny. 

[WDH]

Road Trip!

The walnut log traveled 60 miles to Customsawyer's abode for final disposition.  The following pics detail how it met the saw.

Would you trust your walnut with this man?  Anchorseal to the left, tape in hand, copenhagen at the ready in the shirt pocket, and a litte bitty chainsaw  .

 



Cogitating.........

 



After all the input from the Forum and the actual situation with the log, we decided to isolate the split by sawing parallel to the widest split.  This worked out very well as all the worst damage was isolated to the bottom of one 8/4 board.  There was actually very minimal waste.  Jake said that he got lucky.  I suspect that it has more to do with skill than luck  .

 



 



We got six 18" wide by 10 feet long 8/4 planks from this log not impacted by the split.  There were four other narrower 8/4 boards, one 16/4 where the split V's off (for table legs and such to keep the impact of the split to a minimum), plus seven 4/4 side boards.  A bit over 325 BF.

 



Here is Jake puting some final MoJo on those boards after we were done  .

 



All in all, this was one of the more exceptional logs that I have worked with, even with the split!

[paul case]

exceptional job on that log you guys!
that big honking log dont look so big on that big sawmill.
looks like you must have got the most out of that log as the lumber looks real good!
way to go!   pc

[customsawyer]

Not to mention we had some good laughs along with the good lumber. Where is the pic of all the waste?

[paul case]

jake,
that stuff never makes the news. i bet that was the part you got to keep huh?   pc

[WDH]

I did not want to show this huge pile of waste and threaten your reputation as a Sawyer.  If you had not slabbed it so heavy, we would have gotten even more BF .  

Just kidding for you serious types  .  Amazingly little waste, but then again, all walnut is good for the right use except the bark and sawdust  .

 

[inspectorwoody]

Nice job. 

[metalspinner]

Wow!  Beautiful boards and work, guys.

I see a few natural edge platters in those slabs.

[WDH]

I left three of the wide 4/4 boards with the natural edge.  Maybe they will appeal to someone with $  .

[tyb525]

I thought this was appropriate for this big walnut, little mill topic. I sawed these for my neighbor. There was another log just like this one, plus the 3 smaller junky ones.

Despite the knots in the pictures, there was a suprising amount of FAS lumber in them. I just happened to take pictures when I got down to some knots

Both were 22", no taper















Last summer, I sawed close to 500 bd ft walnut for him. He is trimming out a big addition in all walnut. 12" wide window sills . He's already got most of it done, but ran out and needed some more. That's what this lumber is for. Hopefully I'll get some pictures of it.

[Magicman]

Good job.  Since I rarely saw Walnut, it is always a fun job for me to saw.

[ljmathias]

Beautiful job, Ty, and what nice logs to saw!  Would love to cut some like that- never seen walnut this far south... 

Is your neighbor kiln drying it before using it?  A 12" plank should shrink quite a bit, no?

Lj

[WDH]

Ty,

A very appropriate post given the title of this thread!  I am amazed at how little sapwood there was in those logs.  Georgia walnut has more sapwood volume per total volume than what I see posted on here from the Great White North.  I would be proud of the Little Mill  .

[customsawyer]

I would have to say that he has earned some bragging rights.

[Dodgy Loner]

You kept us on the edge of our seats for long enough as we awaited the conclusion of this saga. Glad to see there was a happy ending Those 18-inchers were worth the wait!

ljmathias - Walnut's natural range doesn't extend quite this far south in Mississippi, but I have seen a fair amount of it around old homesites, usually mixed in with a few pecan trees and a mulberry or two. Those old-timers didn't want to have to walk very far to get their fruits and nuts.

[WDH]

LJ,

Then, canvas the old homesites and find us some walnut in your spare time  .  A man should not just lay around and do nothing .  Once you finish this small, little, building project, you will need something else to do to occupy your time  .

[Magicman]

Walnut extends much further South along the Mississippi River and at least as far East as my place.  I have a considerable amount of Walnut.

[ljmathias]

Thanks for all the comments- didn't mean to hijack Ty's great thread, just jealous is all. 

Lj

[tyb525]

No worries LJ (although this is really WDH's thread). That walnut had been dead and down for years in my neighbors woods (which is adjacent to ours). The sapwood does tend to be narrow in many of our hardwoods. One thing we don't have around here are pines and cedar. The only time you see them is when they are planted, and that's pretty rare. Red cedar is nonexistant except in yards, that's a tree I would love to have.

Since this walnut had been dead for a long time, it was considerably drier than fresh cut, and the boards didn't move like they would from a green log. If you look at the picture of the cant (#5), the greenish wood is still wet and the purple/brown is pretty dry. I'm not sure how that will affect shrinkage, but I know he dried last year's wood in his empty grain bin for around 9 months, and so far hasn't seen any ill effects. Time will tell! It sure looks beautiful though, he put on 3 coats of boiled linseed oil for a nice satin finish that literally looks like chocolate..

[Dodgy Loner]

Walnut extends much further South along the Mississippi River and at least as far East as my place.  I have a considerable amount of Walnut.

Actually, that you have walnut at your place helps to confirm the validity of the range maps for walnut. Jefferson County is right on the southern edge of the range, whereas McComb and Hattiesburg (which LJ and I have found to be devoid of natural walnut) are both just south of the range.