landowner protection

[2stick]

What does the  landowner need before logging starts so in case of a accident I don't get sued.

[beenthere]

Maybe a copy of your liability insurance papers.

[2stick]

Maybe a copy of your liability insurance papers.
[/
I have liability , but why shoud i be responable

[jocco]

As a landowner make sure the logger has liaility,  possibly comp also, Check state laws. As a logger have liability.

[Norm]

I require current liability, workmen's comp and for Iowa they need to be bonded. And don't take their word for it require copies of all these.

[SwampDonkey]

When we rented land for farming we needed liability insurance in case there was an unforeseen accident that would cause damage to his equipment. Like when one of the forum members here lost his forwarder in a bog that was not identified. I don't think liability covers personal injuries, so the other guy needs some kind of Worker's Comp or health insurance for that. Up here, employers can contribute to Worker's Comp for benefits as well as his workers. If he has Workers Comp, he can't sue because of the laws in NB. When we do silviculture (brush saw work and planting) the landowner is always told he should have liability on. Most don't bother, but that's their business. Up here you can call in and verify workers comp (government) and liability (his insurer). And insurance companies require an annual premium on liability so some jack leg can't make one monthly payment and pull out.

[Ron Scott]

As Norm said, require the logger to have liability insurance, workmen's comp. and a performance bond. Be sure to obtain a copy of the certificate for each. It is also best to have the logger's insurance coinsure you in name during the period of the timber harvest.

[Gary_C]

There are also some duties that fall under your responsibility. Things like clearly marking your property lines or the sale boundary, identifing what trees are to be cut, providing space as required for landings and access, and especially identifing any special features or hazards on your property.

It would be a good idea to get some professional advice on the ground in your area like from the local DNR office, if you can. At least go pick their brain for help with local issues. Many times they will know or have a list of loggers in your area to deal with.

[2stick]

As Norm sad, require the logger to have liability insurance, workmen's comp. and a performance bond. Be sure to obtain a copy of the certificate for each. It is also best to have the logger's insurance coinsure you in name during the period of the timber harvest.
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Whats a performance bondquote]

[Ron Scott]

Also what Gary C said.

Note your responsibilities also as the landowner. Also have a good Timber Harvesting Contract spelling out all the terms of the timber sale.

A Performance Bond is a bond posted to insure good performance of the timber harvest. Any damages or violations of the contract may be collected from the performance bond. The logger may provide the bond through a bonding company or post a cash bond to be held in escrow for the particular timber sale. The bond is usually in an amount of 10% or so of the timber sale value depending upon the values that might be incurred for any timber damages, excessive erosion, field, facility, road, power line, survey monuments, hunting blinds, etc. potential damages.

Some may also want to post a "letter of credit", but these should only be accepted with caution from a verty reliable business operator.

It is always best to seek out the services of a professional forester to handle our timber sale needs. Especially if this is to be your first timber harvest.

[WDH]

The timber sale contract should spell out the liability terms.  It is a standard paragraph in good timber sale contracts.

[2stick]

Thankyou everybody for all the infor. it is very helpful
Since this is a large clearing job I'am there pushing out stumps ,brush and building the haul roads,I will meet with them each morning and have a talk so everyone can stay on the same page, there will be NO contract only a handshake and thats the way I want it. We agreed upon a price for the saw logs , bolts & pulp.
My main concern is as long as he shows proof of liability, workers comp. he can start working ?

[Gary_C]

It's a recipe for disaster, but only if something goes wrong. If not, I guess it will be OK if you want to take that risk.

[Norm]

I wouldn't trust my own grandmother to log for me without a contract. 

Why the emphasis on NO contract?

[2stick]

Please give me some examples what can happen without a contract, I don't want to become a wreck.

[Ron Scott]

Risky business without a contract defining the terms and specifics of the operation and how it is to be performed. Also as WDH said, the contract should have specific clauses addressing liability and the amounts required.

[2stick]

I don't what to be bound to a contract, we agreed to have a sale once a week , we scale the logs together, then the would be buyers scale & bid we both get checks before the logs leave , the bolts go to one buyer on a set price & the pulp has and open contract del. to the mill. Please give me some examples what could happen.

[Ron Scott]

It sounds like you have a partnership or subcontractor relationship for whatever you are doing. You seem to be directly involved in the operation and could be sued for any misunderstanding that may arise after the fact. Verbal agreements are often misunderstood and things happen that weren't planned for.

If you accept all responsibilities, then that's fine.

[2stick]

What can happen?, give me some examples

[SwampDonkey]

Anything imaginable. Some people know every angle and back door to explore to.

[2stick]

Ok ,give me some example so i know what to lookout for

[Ron Scott]

I don't know what your landscape area and management objectives are, but you might want to get the advice of an attorney on what could happen in your situation.

Some things are:

1. The operation might start a forest fire that escapes to your neighbor's property.
2. The operation might trespass and cause damages to your neighbor's property.
3. The trees you wanted cut aren't cut or those you wanted left are cut or damaged.
4. Facilities on your property such as, any buildings, roads, ponds, wetlands, fields, fences, crops, wildlife openings, etc. are damaged.
5. Any survey monuments and markers are removed or damaged.
6. You aren't paid what was intended and you are not paid in a timely manner as expected.
7. The intended time frames for completion of the operation aren't met.
8. The harvest area, landings, decking areas, etc. are not cleaned up as you intended after the operation is completed.
9. Timber is removed without your knowledge.
10. Soil erosion is excessive.
11. Slash is not removed or handled as intended.
12. Stump heights are higher than intended.
13. The work is subcontracted to someone else without your permission.
14. Trees are left hanging and not utilized after being cut.
15. Roads and trails are not returned to there original condition or improved as expected.
16. Etc, etc.

[Gary_C]

And don't forget that with both you and the logger working together, what would happen if he drops a tree on your equipment or even you. And the same goes if you do some damage to his equipment or helpers. You could have an expensive legal battle over who is to fault.

It's Murphy's Law you have to protect against. If anything can go wrong, it will.

[2stick]

Ok now I'am starting to understand, Many good points i never thought about.
I really thank you folks very much, as we expand are cattle operation this will not be the last logging /land clearing deal  all info really will help keep things going smooth

[2stick]

I wish where was a guide line book for land owners, to know to ask the right question and get the right anwers.
 

[Ron Scott]

Contact your local Conservation District Foresrter, Extension Forester, or DNR Service Forester for such information.

[Autocar]

I have another angle for you to look at, years ago I got busted up on a job just north of my place . I have all my insurance a signed contract stating how many tree and what the paint color was ect. I get hurt my health insurance company sues the farmers insurance company tp get there money back that was spent to get me fixed up. I was madder then a wet hen about it because I felt he didn't have anything in it but they sued any how. I told the fellow if he had to pay anything I would give him the money back , I still think thats a joke. But in the end the lawyer that handled the case for my company ended up with most of the cash. When I questioned them about it they said that was common but sometimes it paid off for them. Here to find out that was a every day thing for them to sue each other, what a joke wheres are country going ?

[Holmes]

It would be better to have a contract , but even with a signed contract you can be sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars for whatever whim a lawyer can come up with. Having a forester or a contract will not guarantee you will not be sued. The forester will have the ability to produce a contract that will make you feel protected. Holmes

[2stick]

Just found out he has liabilitiy, but no workers comp. pays cash for operator ,  cutter & truck driver

[Norm]

Then you will be the one liable if anyone gets hurt on the job, especially since you have before hand knowledge.

Professionals do not skirt laws like that, I'd find someone else to do the job.

[240b]

I did a job for a lawyer once. Gave him the 5 page contract. He laughed wanted to know where the other 195 pages were. He said that was about how much paper it would take to cover any possible "issue".   

[SwampDonkey]

Some of you fellas must live in a land of sue your neighbor over anything trivial, because it doesn't work that way up here. Liability and workers comp cover damages of the parties involved and injuries to the employees on the work site and a contract and performance bond cover what is expected of the job. If the job contract is a vague mess of literature without specifics then that's the source of trouble 99% of the time.

[Ed_K]

Another angle.In my state if I'm on the job working also and discuss what will happen each day,then everyone working the job is an employee of mine and I better have worker's comp & unemployment insurance.Thats a nightmare in itself $$$.

[Autocar]

2stick, contract cutters and truckers it's up to them to have the insurance they need, pay there income tax it use to be a way for companys to get around having to pay it themselves . But now adays it won't sail a fellow can get his pants sued off if something happens. Every now and then I wll hire a contract cutter or skidder operator Iam a nervous wreak as long as there on the job can't sleep at night till we are done. Crazy yep your right but in my opinion your going to have a tuff time getting mister perfect. All the insurance workman comp or what ever is just to make you feel warm and fuzzy your still be walking a barb wire if something happens. Just my two cents 

[Logginsteve]

In Maine if the logger is a Sole Proprietor, with NO employees, he can register with the state to have a waiver of his Worker's Comp for himself.  If he he gets injured on the job then the land owner is not liable.  But anybody can sue for any reason, so I'd still want a contract with that in writing.  

To add to Ron Scott's excellent list... how about who pays the utility companies to come restring wires that are knocked down by a falling limb or badly cut tree?  Or hits the neighbor's car, or falls on a public right of way, or worse... hits the neighbor's car while he's driving it on a right of way.  The list of possible serious problems is endless!

We had a guy in town fell a tree on power lines that cut power to 3 towns for half a day because it was remote and he ran off after he caused the damage.  Middle of winter, highly inaccessible area... took the crews hours to find the break and hours to get equipment out there to fix it.  You don't want to be on the liability end of that!!

Beating one of my personal drums:

9. Timber is removed without your knowledge.

We have a lot of absentee landowners where I live.  Some don't visit their land for years.  There's a scam where some criminal (let's call them what they are) figures out who is a likely sucker, calls up the landowner and says "hey, I noticed some trees came down during the last storm.  I'll pay you $1500 for them."  To a retiree (favorite targets) some quick cash is often too good to pass up. The next time the landowner comes up he finds a couple of twigs left on his land.  Boy, that must have been some storm!  No contract?  Well, good luck with proving the crook took what he wasn't supposed to.  A 25 acre parcel I now own lost a whole acre of cedar and a wide trail to crooks like this under the prior absentee land owner.  20 years later it is still struggling to grow anything and I lost a lot of trees on the property line to blow downs because of the huge hole in the canopy that was opened up.

Final thought.  Years ago a State Forester advised me if a guy shows up to do cutting for you, and he isn't dressed from head to toe in safety gear, tell him to get off your land and never come back.  Someone that isn't serious about his own safety and property can't possibly be serious about yours.  There's plenty of people that can do the job right, so why take a chance?

Steve

[SwampDonkey]

Absantee owners have always been good targets up here especially since those lots are most times in rural remote areas. The criminals know they never come around and they just move in. No need to call the owner if your intent is to fleece the place. We had one guy that got real creative, he had permission to harvest an absantee lot, but he also helped himself to 15-20 acres of wood from surrounding lots without permission. The absantee lot was land locked and wooded all around. He had a great time in there. 

[bill m]

What about trucks and equipment entering and leaving the job site and doing damage to the public way. Some one will be liable for that.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, a seperate bond may be required by the Agency having jurisdiction of the road that you are accessing the timber from.

Besides possible damage to overhead power lines, there is also the potential for damage to underground utility and gas lines.

Also, how is the logging equipment to be treated to prevent the spread of any invasive species to other properties?

[jim king]

After reading all this I know I never want to leave the Amazon.   All we have to put up with is the ECO nut industry.  The rest is just look out for yourself and mind your business.