North vs South

[Ron Scott]

Some very low prices. The pulp mills pretty much control the forest land management by their type operations. Not the best for the landowner when only sawlogs are removed and the remaining wood products (pulpwood, firewood, etc) are left in the woods. a lot of wasted wood.

This really trashes the forest. When neighboring landowners see this they won't sell their timber. I require all wood to a 4" top to be removed or I don't sell the timber. Most sales are also short wooded. One needs to landscape the forest, not trash it.

When landowners won't sell their wood and pulpmills won't pay a price for a living wage, they go elsewhere including
the cheaper foreign markets.

The appearance and road conditions left by logging jobs after harvest is an important factor in retaining a supply of wood now days both from public and nonindustrial private landowners.

[Tom]

Short-wood is almost a thing of the past here, Ron.  The mills have gone to tree length processing and the short-wood pulp-wooders are falling by the wayside.  When the mills will buy short-wood it is perhaps one day per week and often they restrain for weeks on end.  

Urban wood that used to go for short-wood is now sent to the landfill or ground in a tub grinder and returned to the forest floor.  This practice is causing some consternation because the trees are replaced by buildings and the inspectors don't want organics under the buildings.  Don't know where it will end.  

Much of the tailings from a logging operation were once gathered by short-wooders and now they are wind-rowed.

There's been many a kid put through college by a hard working daddy with a short-wood truck.  That's an industry that is being pushed out in favor of mechanization, speed and greed.

[Ron Wenrich]

woodsmill

How much firewood you want at that price?  That is comparable to oil @ $2.20/gal or coal @ $220/ton.  Way too high.  We have a rough time at $100/cd, but ours isn't dry. When the economy goes bad, everyone goes out and peddles firewood, which really depresses the price.

Red oak veneer is around $1500/Mbf in my area.  Buyers are getting picky.  

Landowners are getting $400/Mbf on the stump.  Loggers lose on some logs, but gain on the others.

[Ron Wenrich]

Ron

If you demanded that the small trees would be cut in my area, you wouldn't have too many loggers bidding on your sale.  There just isn't enough money in it.

It would be OK to have the stuff cut and let lay, but it would come off the sale price due to the extra step.

Most sale contracts call for cutting tops down to a 4' height.  Letting the tops lay help keep the deer off any sprouts that are under the tops.  Besides, letting the tops rot may be just  advantageous as trucking them out.

By cutting the tops down, the appearance usually looks pretty good, if the logger doesn't hog up the residual stand.  All our roads are seeded with grass and water bars put in place.  Some jobs look good, but the stands have been gutted.  Not my idea of good mgmt.

[Gordon]

Woodmill no wood in this area isn't bought by the ton. I copied those figures from a table of southern prices. Guess at times by the ton would be nice, other times you would be getting raped. Guess it might even out in the end. Na it would end up in the mills favor.

Was rotary cutting a ditch line, and a few small fields today at one of the local mills He's got a good stock of sawlogs in his yard. It's an amish mill. Also grinds mulch and has a firewood processor. But along the way to that mill I pass another much larger mill and his stock in the yard was about twenty sawlogs. Must be hard times.

We got to talking price some and you would be better off to let those trees grow for now anyway. Prices are rock bottom. He said it's not picking up but slowing up.  But he is selling the heck out of firewood.

Oh and the best thing of all, since it was an amish job I had to do it today and it got me out of babysitting.
Well for most of the day anyway.
Gordon

[Ron Wenrich]

Gordon

2 months ago, we had a hard time getting rid of our low grade.  No one wanted pallet cants or boards.  2 weeks ago, they cleaned out our yard.  Prices might be low, but stock is moving.  If you can move your stock, you keep your capital moving.

Prices have not moved, but lumber has moved.  There was a time that prices were OK, but no one was buying.  It reminds me what an egg farmer told me.  When they need eggs, prices are low; when they don't need eggs, prices are high.  The egg farmer figured out that he lost less money by not having chickens; so he retired.  

I don't see these markets improving anytime soon.  I see steady markets and steady demand.  A heavy, snowy winter could change that somewhat.  But, for the next 6 months, more of the same.

[woodmills1]

only quoting what the firewood people who have dry left are getting right now.  tonight i heard one say he got paid 235/cord.  i only deliver a little and got 195 on my last.  10 years ago i was only firewood. woodmizer changed that.   now i am looking at lots of trees that all have tops.   when times are bad it seems firewood prices go up.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, my timber sales are quite rigid. All selective cut northern hardwood sales have all merchantable wood to a 4" top removed. All wood is paid for in advance by lump sum sale.

Slash is looped and scattered to 4 feet high maximum horizontal with the ground. Remaining trees are not skinned or damaged. Future timber quality for the landowner remains to the best effort possible. Jobs are sometimes adjusted along the way depending upon specific logging equipment being used at the time.

I agree that slash is good and should be left on a sale area. It has benefits to help regeneration, protection against deer, replace soil nutrients etc. It just needs to be managed so these objectives are met in a timely manner.

The number of short wood operations in quality sawlog stands are increasing here and they are removing and marketing the pulpwood. That is if they want the timber. I don't have an unsold sale to date and many yet to prepare due to landowner wants.

[L. Wakefield]

Tom

snip.

A 10,000 acre co-op could support a small to medium sized sawmill.  All the logs and lumber would be processed locally instead of exported to another area.  

snip

-   Whoee, you guys have been busy while i was away. I went up to Rockland for the EMS conference (got my certification for ambulance operation- squashed a few cones, I did..)

and I come back, and here's this great thread!

  So one of the things that plagues the northern towns here in Maine is multinationals buying and then selling woodlands and also mills. If the mill closes down, a lot of people are SOL. It happens too often.

  As I quote you above, Ron, you are getting me thinking. I don't know if the co-op approach has been tried up here. Granted, your typical mill worker may not be the same as the landowner who can get into a co-op. BUT. Local people have a vested interest in keeping things going. And they've gotten the short end of the stick very, very often. I'll have to ask around. The mills I'm talking about in the north woods here are pulp and paper mills- at least the biggies that I've seen go under. Another thing I honestly don't know the answer to-yet- is how many sawmills specifically operate- or could operate- out of the same area. It's a very different industry.

  I didn't like the 'US/THEM' profile of operations with coalmining down in WV, and I don't much like it here for paper. Have they ever done a coal mine as a co-op? (I suspect that comes under the heading of 'a dumb question'..)

  lw

[Ron Wenrich]

The only co-ops that own mills are out in the Midwest.  Seems to have really caught on in Wisconsin.

In areas that don't have large, industrial woodlands, the industry must depend on the non-industrial woodland owner.  The best way to keep prices low is to keep them fragmented.  And the information coming from professionals gets to be so muddled that landowners do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing or getting cheated.

But, if woodland owners would band together, they could dictate price (to some extent), mgmt schemes, and general forestry practices.  At a minimum, they could own their own foresters, and save commissions.  Plus there is an advantage to managing in bigger lots.

The community approach to forest mgmt is a win/win for an area.  It can offer a steady stream of fiber, if that is a goal.  Or it can use it in house.  It also offsets the need of having someones demands legislated to an area.

I have yet to see a local govt that is very well informed.  Their legislation is really messed up.  Legislating at the state level does even less good, and legislating from the federal level is the worst.

For more information on community forestry and co-ops, try this link:  http://www.forestrycenter.org/

Of course, you could pay me a modest consulting fee, and I would gladly help you set one up.  

[L. Wakefield]

   Thank you much for the reference. I will try to pass it along to SWOAM- the small woodlands owners alliance of Maine- I finally joined them this Oct after thinking about it for 3 years. My forestor had been instrumental in setting it up. I have yet to become active (in what lifetime?...) eh well- got this one life- I sure do use it hard- it's ^full^ tho if I gave up one of my favorite operating systems- procrastination- I could do more

            lw