Author Topic: circle saw tooth maintenance (Read 1589 times)

yooperdirt · « **on:** April 06, 2011, 07:56:32 am »

Hi!

I have some questions on circle saw tooth alignment and sharpening. The old saw I have is a 40 inch 8xF with 38 newer blue tips on it. I am turning it with 30 horse Deere and cutting red pine.
The saw mill shack I cut up last year had too much saw marking on it and I noticed this spring that the teeth are not perfectly aligned left to right. If you sight over the top of the saw...it appears that some of the teeth are ever so slightly pointed off to one side or the other. I was able to swap shanks and teeth to correct a couple of them but many just won't fall into place. I also bought a few new shanks and tried them but still had problems.

Is there a way to file or alter the tooth/shank interface to get better alignment? How about just file down the side of the offending teeth(that would effect tooth width though)?

My other question concerns sharpening length and width at the cutting edge. Should all teeth be filed to the same tooth width regaurdless? Or should tooth length (were it enters the wood) be accounted for. I would think all the teeth should be hitting dead on...but I could be wrong.

Any comments from people who have experiece with this would be much appreciated.

Jeff · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2011, 08:30:22 am »

Sounds to me like you should run that saw down to Menominee saw and get it looked at. If the teeth are seating properly they should all be in the same specs for width. If you are able to see the discrepancies by eyeballing it, it will never saw right. A spider gauge is generally used for checking. When you put the teeth in, you want to make sure there is not any kind of wood residue on the saw plate or on the shanks. You also must make sure that the bits you are using are for the saw style that you have. A trip to see Peach at Menominee is your very best solution. You can also call him and tell him the Forestry Forum sent you. You can find his number on their sponsor link to the left. The man has worked on over 30,000 circle mill saws and knows his stuff and he will take the time to help you out.

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2011, 08:32:05 am »

Yooper welcome,its common to have to align bits after their installed,you use a backing hammer and tap the tooth in the direction you want to move it with a small hammer not hitting the sharp corners of course.If bits are swaged unevenly it will much the same effect.All bits should be as close to the same as you can make them,a new bit should be filed back to match the rest.Best thing is to copy the angkes of a new bit.Sometimes if you don't have enough lead in your saw it will mark the cant gigging back leaving deepish marks.There are many hear that know more than I they'll be along be along shortly. Tell us more of your mill. Frank C.

Jeff · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2011, 08:41:53 am »

In 25 years as a sawyer I never stuck a tooth to align it. I had an old hickory hammer handle that I used to seat the tooth and shank by using two hands, one on each side of the saw, and smacking the shank in the gullet. If the saw and shanks are in proper condition, the tooth will seat properly. If you are having to "steer" the tooth straight by smacking the tooth one way or the other, something is wrong. It goes directly against my grain to hit a tooth with anything other then a swage.

yooperdirt · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2011, 10:20:23 am »

Most definately...Peach is the 'man'. I had him work his magic on the saw a year ago when I bought the mill. I may just have to take it back to him. At that time we didn't discuss the teeth though. I am just afraid that a couple hours of Peaches time might exceed the value of the saw. At that time Peach did confirm that it was indeed an off brand that is no longer in business and that they were generally a...'hit or miss' saw.

I am trying to decide if a round of new shanks and a trip to Minominee will even make a difference. Or if that money isn't better saved on a new saw. I really hope to get this saw 'dialed in' because as a novice I paid too much for the mill to begin with... and was reassured by the previous owner that the saw was in excellent condition!

!

Bandmiller, it is a Dixon Rousch sawmill. It has a 12 foot carriage with 4 dog blocks. It has a tire-belt carriage feed and a tire-arbor return feed. It also has a dial type log scale which needs to be repainted and calibrated. All and all, a very simple and adjustable design. The 32 foot frame has an axle and a hitch for easy transport.

It really tears into the wood! According to the manual, 30 horse is minimal for this mill but I think the diesel torque curve is optimal. (vs. say gas/electric).

I will try and get some pictures...once I figure out how to downsize the files.

I do have a rotary Andrus hand filer. So it is best to file the teeth back to consistant width mainly?

Any opinions/stories on running half teeth in a case like this?

Thanks

Frickman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2011, 10:25:49 am »

Also check to see if all the shoulders are in alignment. I have had to use an adjustable wrench on the shoulder to move it back to where it should be. It could be out of alignment from the saw bening dropped when it was off the mill or from hitting something while being run. I have been running and around circle mills for decades, just like Jeff, and just like him have never had to strike a bit or shank to align it. To set them, yes, but never to align them. If you have to do that there is something wrong somewhere.

All the teeth should be the same width and aligned, especially on the log side. If not, you will produce a really rough surface as you have already experienced. The tooth length matters more on the amount of "bite" of wood you take. If you have one or more teeth that are significantly longer than the others they will take a bigger bite and that can cause all kinds of problems. Occasionally I will have to replaced a used tooth or two and when I do I file them back to the same length as the others.

Every so often I get an order for "rough sawn" luimber or beams that someone wants for a rustic look. I will swage several of the teeth wider than the others to create a "rough sawn" look for the customer. I actually charge more for sawing sloppy looking lumber than if it was manufactured properly as I have to go out of my way to mismanufacture it.

JSNH · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2011, 11:48:01 am »

If it is only a tooth or two out of line check with another new tooth. My saw doc said he has seen blue tooth bits that were mismade and out of line get missed and shipped out. I have only had one tooth new that was not right. If this only happened with a bit change maybe you got the bad box that skipped quality control.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2011, 05:00:44 pm »

I've seen a lot of bits mismade. I have never had too much of a problem with bit alignment, unless I've had a damaged shoulder. You might have a problem if your sockets are stretched and your shanks are not a little stouter. You can get oversized shanks to make up for stretched sockets. But, the bits do have a lot of variation.

I have aligned a few teeth. I put the blunt end of the swage against the tooth and hit the shank on the opposite side. Sometimes you'll find the back of the tooth isn't quite in the center, so that will throw your tooth off a bit.

A spider gauge can be used to check if the sides are even. If you don't have one, I've used a flat side of a file and put it across the tips of 3 teeth. If a tooth is off, the file will rock or it will have a gap. This method is not nearly as good as a spider gauge, but works in a pinch.

I have often side dressed teeth to get rid of marks. I had one shoulder that pushed a tooth off line so bad that I side dressed it by at least a quarter of the tooth. It was a repaired shoulder. Since it was only one tooth, it didn't affect the saw. Get too many and it will. I have straightened bent shoulders with an adjustable, like Frickman said.

If you're putting in new shanks, you should get your saw hammered. 30 hp sounds like its underpowered. Rule-of-thumb is 5hp/inch of wood. If you're losing your RPM while you're in the cut, then your saw could pull in or push out.

captain_crunch · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2011, 12:26:13 am »

People above know more than me but I run a 46" and it takes 45 hp to pull saw and by rules this is marginal. It will cut 17 1/2 deep and I have run it blind cutting(finish cut with powersaw) and it will make tractor grunt and I have my pump jacked up to 49 hp. Take it to doc and have it checked would be my guess

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2011, 08:09:02 am »

Yooper which Deere are you running it with a "B".Having half the bits is a valid way to get by with less power you will usally have to reduce the feed.Of course the best thing is to have the saw doc work on it but sometimes on a hobby mill we can't afford that too often.Your shanks should require some force to twist out of the plate,if their loose you need oversized shanks as suggested.Many saw shops have good used headsaws at reasonable prices, I'd ask.Older sawplates with some wear don't align the bits as well as new crisp plates, have an index point and eyeball the teeth as you turn the saw.Theirs a differance between striking and tapping for alignment a soft face hammer works too, you back the plate with something to make your adjustment more accurate. Frank C.

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2011, 08:18:09 am »

Still thinking about your saw,does it run true when up to speed?? sometimes the have a kink in them or wobble that will affect the cut.Are the arbor bearings tight? Frank C.

yooperdirt · « **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2011, 10:13:03 am »

Wow the response from you all has been great! Thanks

I just ordered a spider guage so I can better see the problems. Also trying to scroung up a dial indicator to index the tooth and shoulder to the carriage.

Bandmiller, the saw runs true and the arbor bearings are tight. I am running it with a 32 horse Yanmar 3 cylinder(JD 4310). I can control the carriage feed rate fairly well with the belt-tire clutch. I do it by ear listening to the engine and the saw. The wood I am cutting is very soft second (fast) growth pine and aspen.

I will keep you all updated and hope to upload some pictures too.

Jeff · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2011, 10:26:05 am »

A simple steel rule is all you need for setting the lead, in fact I don't think I would want a dial indicator for that.

captain_crunch · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2011, 01:35:09 am »

Just a rookie question have not heard mention of how saw guides are set But I know 32 hp Yamar ain't got torque (guts) a 45 hp Ford 3000 has don't know how they figure this anymore

But my little 3000 will out pull a 50 hp JD with a balewagon don't belive the new HP rateings are correct
Brian

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2011, 06:44:09 am »

Brian,how saw guides are set depends on which ones you have,Jeff has some dandy pictures of modern ones.Basically with the saw running at its hammered speed you want to just be able to see daylight between the guide and saw plate.Most accurate way is with the saw running if you can keep body parts out of harms way.I think your belsaw can be adjusted for clearance with the blade stopped than adjust the boath for clearance when up to speed. Smoke,mirrors ,and BS, horsepower today the numbers are derived from lightly built high speed engines with no bottom[torque].You have to go back to older engines or large truck engines.I'am sure a Detroit series 60 would spin a saw.Probibly the easiest power is an older farm tractor preferibly diesel find one with poor tires or outher problems that would make it cheap,but with a good engine. Frank C.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2011, 06:52:28 am »

Saw guides are used to deflect knot dodge, and aren't meant to steer a saw. I usually set mine with the saw running. The guides are supposed to be snug, but you should be able to see some daylight along the edge of each side.

There are a lot of reasons a saw will saw in or out. I find its usually in the teeth. I had a terrible time with poorly manufactured teeth the other year. Simonds seems to have straightened it out. You can file lead into or out of your teeth. But, when teeth get dull, they will tend to saw in or out.

Feeding too fast or slow can also cause a saw to saw in or out. Gullets fill up with too much dust or too fine of dust can push a saw. If saw speed slows, you saw can lay over due to a loss of RPM. Then there are logs that just don't saw nicely. I always figured it had something to do with the way it grew.

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 08, 2011, 07:20:58 am »

I make my guide pins from hard maple turned on a lathe with a sintered bronze bushing pressed over it and soaked in oil.The bushings are supposidly self oiling. The guides are for momentary contact and should not contact the plate with normal running.Guide should be mounted as high as possible and just clear the bottom of the shank.On my first mill I had pins made from a composit material that supposidly would not heat the plate forget the name and can't find it anymore,kinda looked like a graphite and plastic mix. Frank C.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #17 on:** April 08, 2011, 09:50:04 am »

I'm running those composite guides. I can get them from the Morbark distributor, and I would think my mill supply man could get them. We also have composites in our Edminston edger.

The older mills had a square hole, so I would use a piece of wood. Hickory or locust held up the best. An old timer told me that they used to put a piece of oil soaked leather around the wood. I never tried it, but I did see a few of the mills use them.

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 08, 2011, 08:32:15 pm »

Thanks for the information Ron is composit guides the correct name and terminology,in outher words what would I ask for. Frank C.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #19 on:** April 08, 2011, 11:24:33 pm »

I just ask for saw guides. They don't make wooden ones, because most guys have an endless supply.

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Author Topic: circle saw tooth maintenance (Read 1589 times)