A couple of Michigan forest management videos!

[Geoff Kegerreis]

I know you guys are crazy about forestry, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

So I've decided to share a couple of videos I made about a year ago - I don't think I've shared these with the forestry forum community.

I think there is a way I can post these internally on the site, but I've really never looked into it (maybe I should?).  Since I already have a few on YouTube, I figured I would share them via links.

I hope that is okay with everyone here.

Michigan Northern Hardwood (Beech, maple, ash, cherry, red oak, etc.) thinning video using Ponnse Ergo (from outside and inside the harvester!):


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Michigan Red pine short wood thinning using John Deere harvester and a forwarder (Note Tree Doc Inc. was the logging contractor on this job - I forgot to add their name in the credits, but I want to make sure they get credit here!)


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 For 10 years I have been committed to continually improving my clients woodlots by practicing the finest forest management I know based on USFS, MDNR and Ontario MNR research and development, time spent with USFS, DNR and private foresters, wildlife biologists and of course instruction I received from Michigan state University.

You can tell a good timber sale when you see it - but don't be fooled, these aren't just pretty sites - these are sites where production has been optimized based on careful and conscientious work before, during and after the harvest.

I sincerely hope you guys enjoy this.

I will be shooting more videos of my projects this year and in years to come - some of these will be about forests and others about other fields of agriculture as my business expands due to global client demand.

Let me know what you think.  I will take all your comments into consideration.  

Have a great day!

Geoff

P.S.: Edited to say: COOL THEY IMBED AUTOMATICALLY!!!  Jeff: you rock as a webmaster!

[beenthere]

Thanks for the videos. Well done.
(and more thanks for not adding music, and just leave the sounds of the machines working )

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Thanks for the videos. Well done.
(and more thanks for not adding music, and just leave the sounds of the machines working )

Thanks beenthere. 

  The music on some of the YouTube videos drives me NUTS!  I had to edit out my talking during the filming - as none of it was scripted and since I don't see people very much in the woods, I have a tendency to talk a lot... ...but in upcoming videos, I won't be able to opt out - they will be educational, as much of my work and website is.   

[Gary_C]

Nice videos. It's a familiar look as I run one of those Ponsse Ergo's.

How are you running your softwood thinnings? Are you marking trees or leaving it to the operator to select? And to what basal area did you thin that pine stand to?

The MN DNR has reluctantly learned to leave softwood thinnings for operator select now though I just moved into an older sale that was semi marked and very poorly at that. 

[Woulde]

Hi Geoff,

Nice video's, thanks for posting. 

I'm looking for someone to help clear trees for a home site and view of Lake Charlevoix in Boyne City.

The site is 23 acres, but I estimate only 3 to 5 acres will need thinning and/or clearing.

I live in Ohio, but plan to be in Northern Michigan often this Spring and Summer. 

Let me know if you're interested and I'll give you a call. 

Ron   

 

[lumberjack48]

I did thinning in the Chippewa National Forest, 1960 thro 1996, Norway, Jack pine, White pine, and some Hardwood. In the 60's we fell and piled by hand and skidded with a crawler and a pull behind Hill Lake dray. 70's and up we used cable skidder, there's only one way to thin, the right way or they'll shout you down if you start to damage other trees.

Thanks for posting its fun to watch a Harvester work, it sure takes the work out of it.

[Gary_C]

Thanks for posting its fun to watch a Harvester work, it sure takes the work out of it.

It does take the hard physical work out of it but after sitting in the relative comfort of those cabs for 8-10 hours, you will be physically worn out. The constant attention to everything and constant motion takes a toll on you for sure.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Hey Gary_C,

Being a forester who is dedicated to managing forests carefully, I cannot imagine allowing a harvester to enter a sale without having it marked first.  I look at each harvest as a silvicultural treatment.  I understand the needs of marking for equipment access (learned this 12 years ago when one of Biewer's guys was complaining about a state job someone - not me!   - marked) and I pay attention to this (as well as residual relative density), but the most important thing to consider from a silvicultural point of view - even in a conifer stand - is the quality of residual trees.  

In a 3rd row (1st time thinning in a properly managed Red pine plantation), as long as the planting density/access is reasonable, it's not important at all, since trees aren't individually selected - the rows are...

...in this case, it was the 2nd thinning (in most of the unit that was in that video), so all the trees were assessed and individually or group selected based on 1. quality of residual trees and 2. residual density (in general this is heavily dependent on numerous site factors) which in this case was ~130 BA/A (mean) and IIRC, I had to mark a few in one area of that sale for machine access.

I understand what the state foresters in MN are doing in terms of not marking a pine stand - they simply write it to spec and spot check the spec in the sale contracts during admin - this is done as a compromise.  I expect that is satisfactory to the state forestry agency there.  

It's not something I would consider with my own consultancy as I run a top quality service that caters to those who expect me to deliver what I sell.

 

Nice videos. It's a familiar look as I run one of those Ponsse Ergo's.

How are you running your softwood thinnings? Are you marking trees or leaving it to the operator to select? And to what basal area did you thin that pine stand to?

The MN DNR has reluctantly learned to leave softwood thinnings for operator select now though I just moved into an older sale that was semi marked and very poorly at that.  

[Geoff Kegerreis]

I don't run the machines, but sure enough I respect those that do - (the hand controls alone are baffling) and I know EXACTLY what you mean by this (I've talked with guys about this actually - and experience that same fatigue too - particularly while marking hardwoods) - as you have probably noticed, the video was a tad bouncy - as much as I could keep the camera still - that bouncing over the hours you're in there is going to have a physical affect too!

There are other issues too - but since they involve the maintenance of machines and corporate politics, I think I'll stop here.  

Thanks for posting its fun to watch a Harvester work, it sure takes the work out of it.

It does take the hard physical work out of it but after sitting in the relative comfort of those cabs for 8-10 hours, you will be physically worn out. The constant attention to everything and constant motion takes a toll on you for sure.

[lumberjack48]

I completely understand, your mind has to be 4 steps ahead of what your doing at that time, to be a productive operator
 I  could only run that 450 jd shear head about 2 hours and my head would start to pound from bouncing, banging, and jerking around, you didn't have go to a rodeo, just go cut some timber.

[Gary_C]

 
It's not something I would consider with my own consultancy as I run a top quality service that caters to those who expect me to deliver what I sell.

That's a very good thing but that would put your jobs at odds with my own personal beliefs as I run a very high quality service too and treat every stand as if it is my own. In 1st thinning in pine plantations I cut one row and thin two on each side of the removed row selecting worst first and then other quality factors and tightest spacing next. In later thinnings I cut worst first and consider spacing as next criteria. In my experience I cannot do as good a job with marked stands and will not cut them and most of the better loggers have come to the same conclusion.

The job I just started cutting is a good or bad example, depending on your view. I am removing all the aspen and most all the balsam. Plus thinning a red pine stand. But there overmature aspen that I cannot get to because it's mixed in with some white spruce that missed getting marked. And the south half of the sale the forester marked the merchantable balsam and then got tired of the marking and on the north part he said to cut all merchantable. But he marked the balsam, red pine, and a few spruce with one red dot on one side of the tree and it's impossible to see the markings even when you approach from the right direction. And the forester that marked the sale is from the main office and the forester working the job does not want to change anything as he said if I cut something I should not it's a misdemeaner but if he allows me to cut something I am not allowed to cut for him it's a felony.

My only excuse for cutting this sale is I bought it some 5 years ago under different circumstances and haven't been able to cut it before because of poor market conditions.

[WDH]

On our thinning crews, we use operator select on our land in the South.  With good training, experience, and good feedback, the cutter operator does a great job.  Much depends on the skill and mentality of the operator.  We thin hundreds of thousands of acres per year, so these guys get very good.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

That's a very good thing but that would put your jobs at odds with my own personal beliefs as I run a very high quality service too and treat every stand as if it is my own.

I do not see how that would put my forest management jobs at odds with your logging operations jobs.  - I certainly appreciate and go out of my way to work with high quality logging contractors.

In 1st thinning in pine plantations I cut one row and thin two on each side of the removed row selecting worst first and then other quality factors and tightest spacing next. In later thinnings I cut worst first and consider spacing as next criteria. In my experience I cannot do as good a job with marked stands and will not cut them and most of the better loggers have come to the same conclusion.

I suspect our quality control criteria is different.  For example, I know it is not possible to inspect the circumference of every tree from the cab of a machine.  It is however possible to do that when I'm on the ground marking the timber. 

The job I just started cutting is a good or bad example, depending on your view. I am removing all the aspen and most all the balsam. Plus thinning a red pine stand. But there overmature aspen that I cannot get to because it's mixed in with some white spruce that missed getting marked. And the south half of the sale the forester marked the merchantable balsam and then got tired of the marking and on the north part he said to cut all merchantable. But he marked the balsam, red pine, and a few spruce with one red dot on one side of the tree and it's impossible to see the markings even when you approach from the right direction.

I totally understand your frustration.  I've had logging contractors ask me if I was "big".  What they meant by that is the fact my marks were about 5-6' high rings or slashes (always both sides of tree or surrounding the tree - I will use dots in row thinnings - and stump marked to ensure contract compliance) - marked that way so nobody has a problem seeing them from the cab...As for "overmature aspen", I could not judge whether harvesting them is a good or bad thing - it depends on the prescription - and the prescription isn't always based on cutting mature timber.  That's a key part of the management process.  I'm sure you realize that.

And the forester that marked the sale is from the main office and the forester working the job does not want to change anything as he said if I cut something I should not it's a misdemeaner but if he allows me to cut something I am not allowed to cut for him it's a felony.

Sounds like public forestry to me - another thing I understand and empathize with you.  Logging restrictions are bordering insanity on some public lands - and inexperienced personnel (or head key bureaucrats that haven't paid their dues in the forest) don't understand allowing for reasonable flexibility during the logging operations process.  OTOH, if you just let people in there willy-nilly, it's going to end up worse than it started - and that does not result in a good outcome.

My only excuse for cutting this sale is I bought it some 5 years ago under different circumstances and haven't been able to cut it before because of poor market conditions.

Domestic markets have been bullish, there is no denying that - most of us are in the same boat regarding that issue. 

[Geoff Kegerreis]

On our thinning crews, we use operator select on our land in the South.  With good training, experience, and good feedback, the cutter operator does a great job.  Much depends on the skill and mentality of the operator.  We thin hundreds of thousands of acres per year, so these guys get very good.

I know both of the harvester operators in my videos personally.  Finding a dinged up tree in those operations is like finding a needle in a haystack.  Seriously.  I will put our quality Michigan logging contractor skills up against any in the entire world (with the exception of specialty operations such as cable/high line/heliops, etc.) .  They are THAT good!   

WDH, I've assisted clients with timber sales as a consultant in 3 states, assessed forests professionally in 7, including some in the Southeast on both public and private lands and unprofessionally in most of the others.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I know there are some super skilled logging contracting personnel all around the country.  However, every time I have come back to Michigan from out-of-state projects, I count my blessings to have the level of skilled operators we have here.  There are certain places around the country that I could absolutely NOT say that for - I will not be mentioning those here however.   

 

[WDH]

I agree.  The best results occur where the logger and the Forester work together over and over again as a team.  Reliability is important.  Where loggers establish good working relationships with the markets and can work every day predictably, the best results ensue.  The "clear cut and clear out" mentality where only production is important leads to poor results and dissatisfied customers.  It is like everything in life.......you get what you pay for and you reap what you sow.

[snowstorm]

On our thinning crews, we use operator select on our land in the South.  With good training, experience, and good feedback, the cutter operator does a great job.  Much depends on the skill and mentality of the operator.  We thin hundreds of thousands of acres per year, so these guys get very good.

I know both of the harvester operators in my videos personally.  Finding a dinged up tree in those operations is like finding a needle in a haystack.  Seriously.  I will put our quality Michigan logging contractor skills up against any in the entire world (with the exception of specialty operations such as cable/high line/heliops, etc.) .  They are THAT good!  

WDH, I've assisted clients with timber sales as a consultant in 3 states, assessed forests professionally in 7, including some in the Southeast on both public and private lands and unprofessionally in most of the others.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I know there are some super skilled logging contracting personnel all around the country.  However, every time I have come back to Michigan from out-of-state projects, I count my blessings to have the level of skilled operators we have here.  There are certain places around the country that I could absolutely NOT say that for - I will not be mentioning those here however.  


i have been trying real hard not to respond to this. if i got this right most loggers are dirty rotten stinkers........unless there are from ...michigan? i think gary an i agree neither one of us would cut your painted wood

  

[Geoff Kegerreis]

i have been trying real hard not to respond to this. if i got this right most loggers are dirty rotten stinkers........unless there are from ...michigan? i think gary an i agree neither one of us would cut your painted wood
  

When I look for quality logging contractors, I typically seek out those who have the ability to read and comprehend the English language to a reasonable extent.

Not everyone makes the grade, snowstorm.  

[1270d]

I will agree with garyC.  on softwood thinnings I would think the operator would have a better view of stems being harvested.  the reasons; a higher vantage point from the cab, and also having a cleaner view due to the stems already harvested. 

the plantations I have cut were all in the UP.  it was usually take a row and thin two.  on one stand we took 2 and thinned 4 due to the trenching methods used before planting. (massive windrows)

as for diameter, a decent operator develops a good eye for such things after a couple years on the job ( at 1000-2000 stems per day), and should be able to see the difference well enough to judge which stem is suppressed.

In hardwood thinnings the same ideas apply.  The operator can choose to lay out his routes with minimal cutting while achieving excellent quality.  the rule of thumb i was taught was  first cut the trees that will not survive the next 15 yr rotation (eg large cat faces, big splt crotches, dead tops) Large mature stems next 16" to 18" plus then the ugly.    The bad the big and the ugly.     all the while with an eye on spacing for basil area

I try to learn as much as i can from the foresters i work with

[Jeff]

Mr. Kegerreis,  I see your greater then thou attitude and social skills have not improved over your absence from the forum. You sure have a way of grinding people the wrong way, which in turn grinds me the wrong way.

 I have all of our old communications, I have the letter that Tom sent to you on November 12, 2007 on how you conduct yourself on this forum and alienate not only the membership, but for a fact, potential colleagues.   The one he sent that caused you to bow out the first time. Would you like me to post that here for you to refresh your memory?

I'm going to tell you one time here. Become a sweeter more lovable you and figure out the fact that the combined knowledge of the membership here makes you look like an ameba no matter how high you regard yourself.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Mr. Kegerreis,  I see your greater then thou attitude and social skills have not improved over your absence from the forum. You sure have a way of grinding people the wrong way, which in turn grinds me the wrong way.

I have been as pleasant on this thread as is humanly possible.  I have to a great extent supported the entire forestry and logging community and shared appropriate logging and forestry information on your forum.  I have by far a majority of positive things to communicate.  Despite these positive events, some continue to focus on the negative. 

I have all of our old communications, I have the letter that Tom sent to you on November 12, 2007 on how you conduct yourself on this forum and alienate not only the membership, but for a fact, potential colleagues.   The one he sent that caused you to bow out the first time. Would you like me to post that here for you to refresh your memory?

 

While I am impressed that you would have kept our correspondence dating back over 3 years ago, I do not recall any letter Tom had sent to me personally on that date or any date.  Was this a private message?  If so it was not kept.  If it were a letter sent to my business or home address, I probably would have kept and filed it.  I don't remember it.  This maybe because I have a tendency to adjust my focus on and develop positive concerns.  I do recall that you and I had a verbal conversation and remember part of that.  I would appreciate it if you sent correspondence in a private message or e-mail if you feel I should be reminded of this.

Consequently, the one thing that I *DO* have listed from that date (November 12, 2007) in the private e-mail box is a friendly private message from one of the members here who appreciated my input on the forum with a final salutation of "Anyway, nice to meet ya! Thanks for the reply!".

This is more along the lines of responses I have personally received on this and other forums.

I'm going to tell you one time here. Become a sweeter more lovable you and figure out the fact that the combined knowledge of the membership here makes you look like an ameba no matter how high you regard yourself.

I'm not sure how I could be more sweeter or more lovable than I already am, despite the occasional undeserved vitriol I receive from certain folks that for one reason or another want to sling mud my way, and I don't discount (nor have I ever) the fact that more minds hold more information than one...

...As for amoebas (I believe that is what you were referring to) there is some surprising research regarding just how intelligent these are.  Professor Toshiyuki Nakagaki has some fairly interesting things to say about one such protoplasm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physarum_polycephalum 

Here is yet another informative link about forestry - in this case forest ecology - that more than likely no other forum member would post on your forum.

Have a nice day.

*Sincerely*
Best wishes,
Geoff

   

[Mooseherder]

Because we are not as smart as you are.
Just for the record, the only reason I didn't set you straight on your comments in the Store Produce thread is out of respect for fellow members here.
You don't have any condescending knowledge I would want to learn from.

[Jeff]

I would appreciate it if you sent correspondence in a private message or e-mail if you feel I should be reminded of this.

Its been sent.

You are so blind to your condescending ways of expressing yourself that you don't have a clue how you come off here. You don't get personal remarks directly from members about this because they do have social skills and care about trying to be part of the group and not some one hovering above it.

[Jamie_C]

Here in NS most foresters and forest companies rely on operator selection during thinnings in both softwood and hardwood stands. They will sometimes mark specific trees they want left standing but they leave the majority of the decisions up to the operators in the seat of the machines. The ground looks totally different in the seat of harvester than it does while walking and unless you have spent a fair amount of time in the seat of a machine then trying to lay out the most effective routes for machines is a crap shoot at best. The company i run a harvester for has flatly refused to do some hardwood thinnings after the boss and i walked the ground, the forester figured it should be able to be thinned with no problems .. cradle hills, rocky ground, steep banks, side hills and poor road layout made keeping machines right side up almost impossible.

It takes both parties working together to get a good outcome, forestry is not a perfect science and anybody who thinks they practice it as such is grasping at straws.

[Texas Ranger]

"That more than likely no other forum member would post on your forum."

Geoff, there are any number of foresters, biologists, engineers, teachers, loggers, mill owners, and yes, even business managers, doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs on this board.  A pretty good mix of a cross section of society.

Talking down, or the appearance of talking down, to the board is not beneficial.

This board is more a family, and we do back talk occasionally, but a friendly way works better than arrogance.  You, as every one else, have a unique view or your world.  We like the different views, but don't get carried away.

Stick around, you have friends here, and can make a contribution.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Thanks TR.

Jeff and others - seriously - I don't mean to be condescending to anyone.  Really.  You're probably right, Jeff I haven't a clue that I come across that way. 

By the way I appreciate the private message.

A little over 3 years ago I made a decision just to stop visiting this forum because I was getting hammered for what I thought was essentially no reason.  I had really forgotten I made that decision quite frankly.

That really has not happened on any other forestry discussion venue I have taken part of on the internet, and I have been discussing forestry on the internet on venues before this forum was active (in fact, I remember when it was just the timber buyers network - though I wasn't very active on here back then either - yet I was active even before the timber buyers network began in Y2K).

I think part of the difference with the other discussion venues compared to this one is that previously when I have discussed forestry with others it has always been mostly with foresters and other natural resource experts.  I don't mean to imply anything negative by that, it's just completely different than discussing topics with other folks who are in other subgroups of the broader part of of the Forestry community.

I guess if anything, this will give me something additional to think about.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone.  Please don't take anything I state as a personal insult, because it is not meant nor intended that way at all. 

I guess that's all I have at the moment.

Regards,
Geoff

[SwampDonkey]

Here in NS most foresters and forest companies rely on operator selection during thinnings in both softwood and hardwood stands. They will sometimes mark specific trees they want left standing but they leave the majority of the decisions up to the operators in the seat of the machines. The ground looks totally different in the seat of harvester than it does while walking and unless you have spent a fair amount of time in the seat of a machine then trying to lay out the most effective routes for machines is a crap shoot at best. The company i run a harvester for has flatly refused to do some hardwood thinnings after the boss and i walked the ground, the forester figured it should be able to be thinned with no problems .. cradle hills, rocky ground, steep banks, side hills and poor road layout made keeping machines right side up almost impossible.

It takes both parties working together to get a good outcome, forestry is not a perfect science and anybody who thinks they practice it as such is grasping at straws.

Here in New Brunswick the harvest blocks will often have trails flagged, but no trees are usually paint marked. The reason can be two fold. One is the forest license has limited time and resources dedicated and the product being harvested is mostly pulp grade. The second reason is the terrain:boulder fields down through the woods, steep ground, and pit and mound topography and in the majority of cases nothing is left behind to stand anyway.

I have marked both trail and trees for selection on woodlots. I never had a problem with my layout, with one exception. I did one time have trouble with a horse crew that figured I had to build roads every 200 feet all over thin soiled mountains. Their forest technician had not planned the road layout at all, steep >20 % grades, skidding all down hill but hauling all up steep roads. It was meant for a skidder or forwarder not a horse. Their technician could grow Christmas trees but new little about logging layout. The client had used these guys on another lot and figured the semi-retired forest technician from the local ranger office would be a good man for the job. They had been basically lying to the client that they were doing selection in reality they were high grading with select cutting and clearcutting and the horse crew didn't like the new arrangements.  Too bad.   Even though under my watch I was also paying them an extra $10/cord for aspen/hardwood pulp. The longest distance skidded was 300 feet except one tiny corner of the lot 550 feet downhill to a landing. The horses could barely skid the sticks. 30+dbh sugar maple, red spruce. It had never been logged out there and other sections with smaller wood was fire origin second growth. It was a town watershed protection area for their water source. Their water is now pumped from wells into towers. Not because of the logging, they had converted years before. That place was basically turned up side down before I arrived and no road layout plan whatsover. There was management plan, but was never followed except for the work I did. A third guy came in with his crew and flattened the place and stole most of the big wood. I learned that from a guy in charge that left the company and the marketing board that saw the aftermath. I heard a lot of tales and many not true because the observer was only there to see the aftermath of some very fly by the seaters.

Some of us do know a little something out there.

[Jamie_C]

Swamp ... the best Foresters and Forest Engineers i know all realise that on the ground Forestry is not an exact science ... (if i would have stayed at UNB i would now have the BSc FE designation but the Hilltop Pub did me in .. )