edging aged lumber

[Randy88]

Heres the problem I've got, now I'm serious by saying I have a lot of aged home sawn lumber, stickered and stacked and in my sheds for years, grandpa had a blade mill for years and the last time we ran it was about 35 years ago, so thats the newest lumber I'm dealing with, some is almost 70 years old, still air drying in my sheds, we have had several portable band saws saw about 40,000 board feet of lumber since but what I'm dealing with is the blade sawn lumber.   Its 2x's mostly 2x8 and 2x10 some 2x12, all hardwoods, oak and maple some elm and odds and ends sorted through and never used for building projects over the years, we also have plenty of sheeting grade lumber 1x's that have also been tossed back and restacked and never used, some is from some of my grandpas first sawing and he never wanted to use it, it was never good enough to use but too good to toss out, [grandpa never threw anything away he went through the depression] and thats dates back to almost 80 years ago, always sheded and stickered.   

Along came his grandson and is remodeling a barn into a heated insulated shop [also a building he built new originally] and my dad whos the wood worker now decided it was a good place to use this stuff up and not only get it out of the shed but put it to a good cause so he gave it to me, we are using the 1x's for sheeting and the 2x's for structural work for a false wall so we can insulate the building.   

My problem comes from the hardness of the lumber, my table saw isn't big enough to cut the stuff or shall I say powerfull enough, a 10 inch 1.5 hp electric motor, dad has two more table saws and his are aobut the same size and hp and his isn't doing much better with new carbide blades in either, I can rip the boards down to width using the saw but its slow and time consuming and when the motor heats up we have to wait until it cools again, the 2x's, forget it we have been trying to rip them narrower turning 2x8's into 2x4's and 2x10's into 2x5's, the 1x's we are ripping into anthing usable and just throwing away the waste material and tossing it into my wood furnace.   

The main question is other than a newer more powerfull table saw is there anything out there to do it with, I've talked to guys who do blade sawing and portable band sawing, and they just looked at me in total disbelief that first off I had antyhing like that in the first place and second they had never done anytihing like it period and said no.   Guys with power edgers said no way it was too hard of stuff and anyone with a resaw said forget it.    I'm getting the idea we have to be totally oddballs that never threw anything away and have so much home sawed lumber to begin with.   I'm not opposed to buying machines and tools, eventually I'd like to have my own mill of some sort and get back into doing it again like dad and grandpa did but right now I have enough material to last me I just need to work with what I have at hand.   I'm wanting something to speed the process up considerably I just don't know for sure what to get or how big or which direction to turn to, any ideas would be appreciated, thanks in advance

[metalspinner]

I'm not sure why a portable mill wouldn't want the job.  It's easy enough to edge several boards at a time.  They do it every day all day.  I've never met a bandsawyer who was scared of harder wood.     Did they even try, or were they scared off by your story?


Part of the problem you could be having with your tablesaw set up is a wavy edge.  Unless your fence edge and bottom face is perfectly straight and flat, the cut edge will wander through the blade causing friction and binding.  Eventually leading to kickback.

The thicker 8/4 material is probably too much for your table saw to handle on a large volume.

[r.man]

Wow. Is any of the wood a species that instrument makers would use? I would think that if it is useful in any number of trades that the easy route for you would be to sell it and buy fresh. Wood that age is rare where I am, sounds like a European thing to hold it that long, and rare normally means expensive. Other than that it sounds like a job that would suit a small manual bandmill. Any in your area?

[Norm]

I do stuff like that on my woodmizer all the time. Not sure why they wouldn't want to do it.

[tyb525]

I often use my bandmill to edge boards after they are dried, usually if they have a crook, or if I want to rip a wide board into several narrower boards. It's really a lot easier, faster, and safer than trying to manage a huge board with wavy edges on the tablesaw.

Once you rip them on the mill, they are much more manageable to joint and plane and cut on the tablesaw.

[Stephen1]

I'm sure someone on here can help you, We would need to know your location. As stated if the wood is that old, and hardwood, a good chance it is worth trading or selling. before you cut up to much check out selling it.

[pineywoods]

Any of the bigger bandmills running a stellite band would do the job for sure. Doing that sort of sawing on any mill is labor intensive, lots of material handling. That's probably why you were turned away. When you find a sawyer willing to cut it , most likely will charge by the hour.

[barbender]

I agree with others, hardwood that has been dried that long could be used for a lot of things rather than framing, I'd try to sell some of it and just buy some softwood framing lumber. Other than that, there is no reason someone with a bandmill couldn't edge or resaw that stuff. What's your location? Really, if that wood has decent grade, it would have real value to a lot of people.

[Randy88]

Thats just it most of what we are using isn't that good its been tossed back and sorted back so many times we just want to use it up and sheeting boards and edging the 2x's are a good way to use it up, its not finishing lumber by any means, that dad won't part with anything good he uses it all the time, this is basically his rejects and grandpas as well, we figured try to cut something out of it rather than pitch it, the sheeting boards are really bad about a third of them we cut up for firewood right off the bat.   

As for portable mills there are only a few by me and they either won't mess with it or else they are too busy or just plain lazy, take your pick.   I'm in northeast Iowa and nobody I've talked to so far is willing to do it once they ask how long ago its been sawed, I didn't want to lie to them and say about 10 years ago in hopes they might do it, thats not the right way to go about it, I agree a bandsaw mill should be the ticket.    I have one last guy who's going to call me back, he didn't have time to chat about it when I called and I haven't heard back from him yet other wise we are out of ideas.   

A lot of the sheeting boards are so bad we don't use the fence, we draw a straight line on the board and just follow that to try to account for the curves and other problems, the sheeting boards go fair but slow, the 2x's not at all, its just too much thickness for the saw and too hard.   

[terrifictimbersllc]

The answer is yes, there is something more powerful than a 1.5 hp motor.....get a 3HP or better 5HP motor on your 10" table saw and I think your problem will go away.  I'd say no way you're going to cut a lot of even 1" hardwood in one session without challenging that motor.   I have a 5HP Unisaw which never overheats.   Burning and smoke only occur when I'm pushing too slow or the wood is either irregular so that it shifts a little or otherwise binds in back of the blade.   One cant under-emphasize the need to keep the blade clean of any pitch buildup, that quickly compounds to give unnecessary blade heating.  Also to make sure that you are really using a high quality sharp blade, and to  have the fence properly adjusted so it  is not pushing wood against the back of the blade as it passes through the cut.  

If that wood is 80 years old then it stopped air-drying about 78 years ago   .  I doubt any difficulty you are describing has to do with age of wood, maybe with high quality dense wood is what you have with a lot of narrow growth rings, but even so the wood is not hard compared to carbide.  As others have said there may be some real gems in that stash that are worth setting aside until a worthy use comes along.

Also make sure the wiring to your motor is adequate or even oversized for current and wire length and switch to 220 if you haven't already.

[Jim_Wahl]

One thing you could try that is quick, easy, and cheap is to put a 7 1/4 inch blade on your table saw.
It'll make what little horse power you have go a lot farther. In the mean time, keep an eye out for a better motor.

[Hilltop366]

A good ripping blade will help,  as well as a smaller blade and more hp but it won't cure the wavy edge problem.

You could set up some saw horses and use a hand held circular saw with a good blade and either snap a chalk line to follow or screw down a straight edge to get one side straight then go to the table saw to do the other side with the fence in place. for the 2x on the table saw you can rip just past 1/2 way through then flip it end for end and run it through from the other side to finish.

[Dodgy Loner]

If that wood is 80 years old then it stopped air-drying about 78 years ago  .  I doubt any difficulty you are describing has to do with age of wood, maybe with high quality dense wood is what you have with a lot of narrow growth rings, but even so the wood is not hard compared to carbide.

Terrifictimbers made an excellent point here that I just wanted to reiterate: wood gets harder as it dries, but once it is dry it will not get any harder. It really doesn't matter if the wood has been cut for 2 years or 200 years. All the other posters have offered excellent advice as to what your problems may be, but it's not that your wood is too hard. One additional problem that you may be having is that if the wood is unusually dusty or dirty, it will dull your blades more quickly than clean wood. I still don't see why a bandmill wouldn't take the job for an hourly pay rate, though.

[Brucer]

I'd be happy to do the job, but I'm too far away. The only things I'd be worried about are whether the boards were flat or twisted, and whether they'd picked up any dirt while they were sitting around. Wind-blown dust can be especially bad.

I'd have no trouble running them through my edger (twin blades, 22 HP diesel). Wouldn't matter if they were twisted or not.

If for some reason that wasn't suitable, and they were nice and straight, I'd have no trouble doing them on the mill using 4 or 7 degree blades.

[red oaks lumber]

how much money do ou want to spend? for5-10 grand you can buy a dip chain gang rip saw. i have a stetson ross 14" it straight lines and double rips all at once, running 2" mat'l like you describe we would run that at 90 lf/min , crooked or straight it doesn't desriminate.

[tyb525]

Can't reiterate enough: Make sure you have a good STRAIGHT edge to put up against your saw fence. You cannot freehand without the blade burning and binding, and I'm surprised you haven't had any kickback.

I have a 1 hp craftsman tablesaw from the 80's, it cuts through 1" hardwood with no problem, no smoking, with a 10" 40 tooth general purpose blade. It's all about making sure you have a straight edge against the fence, and that your fence is parallel to the blade (if the back of the fence is just a hair farther from the blade than the front, it can help).

[Larry]

I’ve cleaned up some lumber that had sat in Grandpa’s barn for 100 years.  It’s not a bit fun and a lot of work edging boards on a mill.  Covered with raccoon scat, pigeon poop, and 100 years of dust/dirt doesn’t make the chore any more pleasant.  That’s the reason the local boys are turning up there nose at the job.

I suppose a two saw edger might be the best choice if you could find somebody with one of those.

You have already found out your little table saws can’t cut it and trip breakers.  Table saws in the 3 to 5 hp range can handle it but they won’t trip the breaker...they fire the board straight back at light speed, towards your tender parts.  A rip sled on a 3 hp or greater mill would work and might be near the same speed as a mill.     

[bandmiller2]

Randy, have you considered how your going to nail those hard bad boys.Unless the wood is something special I'd buck it up and let it keep you warm.Take the money to be spent on cutting and buy some new nailable stuff and enjoy the empty shed,Frank C.

[jimparamedic]

I use rip blades with as few teeth as possible I have some 10" blades with 16 teeth they rip 3" oak with no problem its not a glue edge but its good for framing. And if you don't use 220 on your saw try that it makes abig diffence.

[Randy88]

Thanks for the imput guys, it really helps, now for some more questions, why would a smaller blade work better in my 10 inch table saw??   Next what is a rip sled, never heard that one before.   I've been told a less toothed blade pulls easier and I understand why but why a smaller blade?  I'd think the opposite would be true or is it the amount of blade in contact with the wood at any one time?  

Now several more things that don't make sense, these guys around here are telling me if it would be less than say 5-7 years sawed they would have no problems doing it but its too dry and too hard, they never said anytyhing about dust or wind blown dirt or anything like that or was it just what they used as an excuse that sounded more politically correct.    

The one guys with a powered edger told me that he'd burn up his blades on wood like that, it was too hard and too dry??    How much different is an edger blade vs a table saw blade or durability?

For the last few years we have tossed around the idea of a bigger table saw, mine can't be changed over to a larger hp motor, its direct drive and I've asked the local motor shop and they told me if it were belt drive they could do something but not the model I have thats a dirct drive.  

Next is there a major difference between table saw brands, I've looked at several 3hp models in the past but just never made up my mind to buy one, maybe its time any advice on one or what not to buy.  

I guess as far as tossing it into the fire and going to buy new, I grew up doing a lot of this and it really doesn't bother me any.   If I tossed this stuff into a fire and went and bought new, I'd spend way more on new than any new saw would cost me and then I'd have the saw for the rest of my life to use, might not be the way to look at it but I guess that teaching of don't waste anything did wear off on me some, my wife has made that comment several times during this remodeling project, the terms of tight wad and cheap along with frugel and a few other things have come up in conversations.  

I guess I don't undestand why a bandsaw mill wouldn't work just fine at doing the job, I'm still hoping to find someone with a bandsaw mil to do the job, I'm hoping this last guy comes through and says he will do it, I'll give him a few more days and give him another call and see what he says.   Thanks for taking the time to resond and answer questions and toss out ideas and thoughts, I really do appreciate it.  

[ohsoloco]

A few months ago I was ripping a bunch of (solar) kiln dried red maple to make children's building blocks.  I have a 10" table saw with a 1-1/2 hp. motor (220 volt).  The wood had a little tension in it, and was binding up, burning, etc.  I removed the 10" blade and put in a 7-1/4" blade, which had a much thinner kerf.  No problems ripping all that wood 

[tyb525]

It probably would do a fine job, I've edged a few very old boards with my mill and it works great.

The dry wood will dull the blade a bit faster, but like Dodgy said, 80 year old wood is no harder than 5 year old wood.

Maybe they are just afraid of nails being in the lumber, or that your lumber is full of dirt.

[WH_Conley]

One thing the band miller could be looking at is time, especially if not running a log deck. I use a dead deck or skids. Sit a bundle of lumber on the skids, my boy can grab one end and flip it against the backstops, I stand it up while he is getting another board. Once you have a system down it goes real quick. If picking up one board at a time and putting on the mill it would be a killer on time.

[5quarter]

Hi Randy,

   The reason a 7" blade tends to run better in some cases is probably the rim speed. A larger blade has a higher rim speed and can cut faster generally, but when you are pushing Thick stock through the saw, you either have to slow way down (not good) or risk tripping a breaker. The motor is just not large enough to power the saw in that application. A smaller, thinner blade has a lower rim speed, cuts a narrower kerf and requires less hp to run. it is slower, but but much easier on the motor and  blade.

   You've gotten some really great advise. I'm guessing alot of us would love to have the problem of all that lumber...hehe. You'd better sort through it carefully though. Rough sawn stock really doesn't show grain pattern very well. i'd be skip planing some of that stuff before deciding to nail it up in your barn. Good luck with the project.

Chet

[shinnlinger]

reiterate everything that has been said here about thick wire gauge, short length of cord, and see if you have the ability to go 220, but the smaller blade is the easiest.  If you can find a good carbide unit from a 6" trim saw all the better(just make sure you have the right arbor size).  A riving knife will also help.

[barbender]

The smallest blade that is big enough to get through what you are cutting- using a 7 1/4" blade in your 10" saw is like using a lower gear, plus a thin kerf  7 1/4" is way thinner than a 10". The problem is the depth of cut, you will likely only be able to cut through your 1" stock with this set up. Someone mentioned a ripping sled, a ripping sled would be a straight piece of stock that you can clamp your wavy edge board too, the straight edge registers against the fence so you can make a straight cut. I'm sure if you do a web search you can find something. You also need to check out your table saw set up, make sure you fence is square to the blade, etc. 2" thick hardwood is going to be a challenge on a direct drive low hp saw no matter what.

[redbeard]

 



These are some jigs that several of the members were talking about to get a good straight edge, Free handing a chalk line is not a safe method. one pic shows a clamping jig that i use for 1x6 - 1x10 anything wider i will use short heavy duty screws and screw a straight board on edge of board to be ripped just run the straight board up tight against your table saw fence and you will get your edges you are looking for.( Note: Drywall srews tend to snap the heads off on really hard dry lumber thats why i like to use heavy duty screws and you will have to deal with screw holes in your finished product using this method.

[Randy88]

Thanks for the explainations everyone and the help and as far nail holes by using a ripping sled that won't be any problem, nobody is going to see any of this anyway when we are done, it'll all be covered up with osb board and tin.   

My thoughts on using a band mill are not totally wrong then, it should really be no problem just some extra time and slower going is all.    Thats the comment dad made anyhow he and gradpa always used to set up the sawmill and when they needed larger stuff ripped narrower they just used that, thats part of the reason why we have never had a large table saw, it wasn't needed, but the mill is in major need of repair, it was getting in bad shape the last time grandpa used it we were working on it constatntly but since it was his baby we kept quiet and just did what we were told, now after all those years I understand why dad told me to keep my mouth shut and do as grandpa said, he told me at the time some day you'll understand and now I do.   

[isawlogs]

  I often use a jig like that pictured by redbeard, I use it with my skill saw as a guide, a board screwed to the centerof the unedged board used as a straight edge and you can saw both sides with a circular saw. I have made my straight edges out of 1/2" X 8' plywood. If you use a cicular saw , get some wedges and put them in the saw kerf as you are going down the board, this is only to keep the blade from bidding. A set of saw horses and a few straight edges will get you boards if you can't get anybody to come out with a sawmill.
 Buy a few thin kerf rip blades and a good cicular saw and go for it. My straight edge boards are for 6" 8" and 10" Sometimes the mill is not as close as you would like, sometimes its just too cold to justify starting the old girl up 

[Randy88]

Thanks Isawlogs, we were just sitting here reading and discussing just that, screw a board down as a straight edge and use a circular saw on the thicker stuff, thats got some cupping to it and curves to it, that might be easier to do than try to double cut the larger stuff on a table saw with a smaller blade.    It gives us some thngs to try out anyhow.    Thanks for the ideas guys.   

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Just as an example, I just finished ripping 2" X 6" of wood harder than anything you can find in your area. I used my Skil brand Skilsaw. I "fingered" the edge of the stock as I went, using my finger as a guide. It will be all used for trusses for my shop extension.

 I used "Contractor Pack" 7¼" Dewalt Blades. They are now so dull, it is impossible to cut your finger on a tooth of those blades.

 My suggestion is, get a worm gear drive Skilsaw, or a 16" Makita Skilsaw, and put smaller blades on it. You need POWER and SHARP blades.

 I had to use a short extension cord, as these 2X's were 20' (yes FEET) long. My longer extension cord would have too much resistance and the blade would spin slower. Want photos ??

 It's MUCH easier shoving a saw down the boards than shoving boards into a binding situation on a table saw.  You can feel the binding and adjust your pressure direction to allow for it. Also, use something behind the cut for a spreader. Reduce the bind and you are golden.

 Set up some saw horses, load a few boards on it, and snap a line on the board as you go. 2 people will make it go plenty fast.

 That's how I do it, down here in the Jungle.

[carykong]

Going from a 10' blade to 7.5' blade will give you less tip speed but more torque. Kinda like sawing in a lower gear. Less load on the motor but slower cutting,blade tip speed is reduced.  You can,also, put a smaller diameter pulley on your motor for sawing in a "lower" gear.  If you really want to tackle lots of ripping on your table saw,I would consider the advise already tendered. Go to a 5hp,220,single phase,with a small pulley at the power side. You will have a plenty of low end power to cut that 2" stock.  Keep your blade waxed and well adjusted and square to the fence. Post back with your solution. You can,also, lower the gearing of your table saw by increasing the pulley diameter at the blade.

[carykong]

sorry,I missed some the posts that pretty much reiterate what I said. Also, failed to see that you have a direct drive table saw. So my advice on changing the pulleys is kinda useless. Good luck,whatever solution works for you. 

[Randy88]

Last night late the only bandsaw miller that didn't get back to me called and said he'd give it a try, he's new to sawing and he bought a new cooks bandsaw a couple of years ago and wanted to try something different and said in the next week or so to bring it up if I'd help him handle the lumber, sure no problem there, so we are going to try that route first, he made no promises but couldn't see any major probem why it wouldn't work, he charges by the hour which is fine by me, that way everyone gets treated fairly and I think he sounded excited to try something different, he admitted he'd never done aged wood before and wanted to see how slow or fast it went and what was invovled.   It basically shocked me he was willing to even try but I think curiosity was getting the best of him.   

So as they say thats plan A, plan B was to put a smaller blade in my big 10 inch circular saw and set up a straight edge on the plank and cut them that way, plan C was to use my worm drive circular saw, and if need be cut from both sides.    So at least we have some plans to go with or a combination of any or all of the above to try.   

Another question, what kind of wax and how often do you put it on the blade?   

I still haven't given up the idea of the larger table saw, maybe a 3hp 220 model, are the imports any good, say a jet or a grizzly or somthing like that for a part timer or a occasional user.   Or for a used saw whats a brand or model to look for thats descent?   

We are looking to put up a large shed in the near future, like 60x140 with a full lean on one side about18feet wide and it'll take a lot of lumber for sheeting boards or 2x's used as sheeting and maybe its time to invest in something bigger, we are still looking at what inventory we have around here to use up and what we need to buy but thats not for a couple of years yet

Thanks and I'll keep you posted as to what we ended up doing and how this undertaking goes.   Thanks for now.

[barbender]

I'm glad you found someone that will try it Randy, I'm anxious to see how it turns out. That method will be the least work by far. BTW, when I put a 7 1/4 Frued thin kerf blade on my old direct drive table saw, it cut way faster than if it had a 10" blade on it. You could hardly tell it was cutting. It's worth a try too, just remember, your depth of cut will probably only be about 1 1/4".

[isawlogs]

 Glad you have a plan for the lumber edging. If he( your new to you sawyer) don't know of this place .. give him a hint 

 I am sure all will go well and you will get a whack of it edged !!!

[Randy88]

You guys wanted an update as to how it went, so here goes, the sawyer has been busy so its not his fault but I have help right now and couldn't wait for him to do it for us,so we ended up doing some experimenting and heres what we found and did, the clamping the board down as a straight edge didn't work very good so we gave that up pretty quickly, it was beyond slow going and were having a lot of problems with the blade binding and we decided to look for another plan of action, the worm drive saw didn't fair much better, it too got hot and was really slow going.   

The final solution was this, one of dads table saws was belt drive and after some questioning out of my local electric motor shop we put on a larger hp motor that ran at only 1750rpm vs the 3400 with the older smaller motor and we got it rigged up and tried several different blades to find one that seemed to work really good for some reason, it wasn't the least amount of teeth but one more in the middle for teeth a 24 tooth ripping blade for some reason worked the best.   We did some experimenting with pulley sizes and found a combination that worked really good as well. we worked one entire day and got most of what I needed done and the motor never kicked out or blew any fuses as all, worked like a charm.   We spent three days to covert things over to the slower larger motor and some experimenting, the new motor is more of an industrial grade electric motor and has a lot more torque than the old one ever did, so all in all we did do pretty good.    Thanks for all the input and help.