New forestry owner w/ 500acres of hardwoods needs help >> >>

[chain]

I meant property liability, as  no doubt you will have a number of folks some invited some not, traversing around. Don't know what the laws are in Kentucky but we had a case decided by the Missouri Supreme court of injury lawsuit go against a rightful lessee who had chosen to protect his interest by cabling a through road on both sides of the property . Two young kids driving atvs hit the cable one night with serious injuries sustained, defendant found guilty of negligence and not properly identifying the cabled closure [cables were commonly used with 'no-tresspassing signs']. This ruling sent shock waves for landowers and rightful lessees.. I took my cables down and now have a gate or soft fencing with 'purple paint' and tape [our State no-trespassing color]. But each year I walk around the entire property checking lines and trespassing .

I'm very happy for you, that you have great interest and love of your new forest property, there's nothing quite like the beauty of a large or old growth forest, congratulations and good luck!

[Ron Scott]

Closing access roads with unmarked cables is certainly a landowner liability. Michigan is curently in the process of initiating a law against their use. They have been banned on National Forest system lands here since about 1969.

[chain]

In this case the access roads were clearly posted with 'keep-out-no-trespassing' signs, yet the cables were set back several feet down the road.  The way we understand is, even if an individual is purposely trespassing and say, flips over a water bar or other road hazard and is injured, landowner is liable.

Our number one problem in management of our forest property is encroachment and trespass. Part of the reasons is a frequent 'turnover' of neighbors who, have little regards for private forest boundaries. I've removed deer stands, fencing, signs, trash dumps, bike trail markers[and nails] animal traps, and junk. Horse trails now are the vogue in trespassing...the beat goes on!

[John Mc]

I've seen folks around here thread a few sections of old PVC pipe onto their cable to make it more visible to folks on ATV's or horses. They may also hang the "No Trespassing" from the middle of the cable.

Vermont has some interesting laws. You can go on foot to hike, hunt, birdwatch, etc. on a property as long as it is not posted (no requirement to ask permission). On the other hand, a landowner is generally protected from liability as long as they are not charging for access to their property: If you ride your ATV on my land and get hurt, it's your own tough luck, as long as I didn't charge you for access. (there are limits: I can't set booby traps, for example. Not sure if I'm required to make cables highly visible or not, but I would do so anyway.)

John Mc

[SwampDonkey]

Up here if it's not posted common sense prevails. If it's a potato field you don't have free range in a pickup truck to make your own road to drive 1/4 mile down two hills of potatoes to make a moose tree stand to hunt in at the end of the field. We had that a lot. At times it was like camp Gagetown with all the hunters driving all over as they pleased. Complete A-Holes and most all outsiders. Probably got chased off other farms. And the funny part is some like to act brave and lie to you about having permission when your the only one that could grant it.

[banksiana]

Keep your objectives real when you talk to a forester.  I have written probably 30 thousand acres of management plans and only maybe 20 percent of the owners had any idea of what they could do.  Most wanted to do something that their land didn't support.  They would get angry when I told them that if they wanted to do "that", sell this land and go buy some other property that would support that practice.  Got tired of hearing all they want is to plant the outer perimeter of a field so poachers could not shoot or see the deer on the field, and yes they wanted to dig a pond.  I real deep pond.   Frustrating. 

[Ron Scott]

Some popular practices desired by landowners here also.

[Okrafarmer]

  Got tired of hearing all they want is to plant the outer perimeter of a field so poachers could not shoot or see the deer on the field, and yes they wanted to dig a pond.  I real deep pond.   Frustrating.

What's wrong with that? It's their land. But around here, if you want to keep people from seeing in, you plant Leyland cypress in staggered double row around your property. Works like a charm.

But I don't see what's wrong with a land-owner wishing to manage their land for wildlife and privacy. I would think you can do that, and at the same time incorporate sound forestry principles that will make them happy and provide all they're looking for.

[SwampDonkey]

Nothing wrong with it Okra, but I think the OP was saying that was their only interest pretty much and not interested in working in the timber where his bread and butter is at. Fish pond building and hedge row planting is for landscape contractors and their back hoe operator. Again nothing wrong with it, but he is looking for further business in the woods.

I've had the opposite experience as far as managing the woods. They usually wanted a plan for the free cruise to bargain with the first logger or the woods was already cut off and they want someone to fix it.

[thecfarm]

chain,welcome to the forum.Sounds like you have the love of the land. Lucky you find a piece to fall in love with. What kind,size HP,tractor you have? Just chaining the logs to the 3 pt hinge or have a winch. Don't get to far ahead of yourself with the logging.

[Okrafarmer]

I see. I guess he meant he was frustrated because the land owner didn't need a forester to look at these things, just someone who could plant a few trees or dig a pond.

[crtreedude]

If I were you with that much hardwood and in the business of remodeling, I would look at producing flooring, cabinets, etc from my own wood.  When you are using it yourself, you can use just about everything - and what you don't, turn into firewood.

Bet you find the forest is more valuable that way than clearing it for livestock.

The best thing is, you can start small and remove some of the less desirable trees, leave the best for growing larger. You have an established forest with wood, now just connect it to your remodeling clients and you are good to go. 

Oh, and a swingblade will handle huge logs, if you need to.

[g_man]

I've had the opposite experience as far as managing the woods. They usually wanted a plan for the free cruise to bargain with the first logger or the woods was already cut off and they want someone to fix it.

So are you saying that, in general, a forester would have little or no interest in helping a landowner "fix" a poorly cut over piece?  Is this because it is such a long term effort with no near term timber sale. I realize a forester needs to make a living but you almost make it sound like you are saying that if it is not a well managed piece with timber ready to sell then don't call me. I dont think you are but that is how it could be read.
You have to start management  at some point. I would think a forester would want to help. But I have not received this message from some I have talked to. They only want involvement if there is an immediate harvest. Frustrating.

[timbuck2]

Amazing how many folks are so quick to jump on the "hire a forester" band wagon.   

[snowstorm]

Amazing how many folks are so quick to jump on the "hire a forester" band wagon.

  x2

[SwampDonkey]

So are you saying that, in general, a forester would have little or no interest in helping a landowner "fix" a poorly cut over piece?

A Clear cut place, not a high graded place. The only way a forester could make it pay was through a subsidy, or land owner cost share to do planting and thinning for the owner. If there is no timber, where does the revenue come from? I know of no one around here who would pay 100 % for the silviculture work. The only way a logger would be interested is if there are trees to cut. Wouldn't be none in a clear cut. Otherwise everyone can stand around and kick tires all day, but it doesn't pay too well. A management plan should follow best management practices on the timbered areas and give guidance on silviculture work on the cleared sections. If you are asked to do a plan on a clear cut lot, what do you prescribe? I don't think I would have to write a plan to offer a couple suggestions in under 5 minutes. Then what do I charge so I can buy groceries? Real easy to draw conclusions about someone else's ethics and then not look at yourself when you just flattened your woodlot while never asked for any assistance or guidance in managing the timber.

[Texas Ranger]

A little forester knocking again.  I am amazed at the level of expertise that exist in the woods.  Every one is an expert, everyone knows what is needed on some one else property, usually in a different location.  Every one knows what the land owner thinks, wants, and needs, with few facts.

That's life, I suppose, go through it without the proper help, at the right time, by professionals.

Part of the "Ya get what ya pay for" life plan.

[Okrafarmer]

I would think, that for the case where a property was clearcut and the owner decided that was a mistake, and that the property was left very junky, that the land owner would be paying the forester to come up with a plan to reforest it, with the ultimately proper species, and to have it cleaned up. I could see how if someone had a hundred acres or more that was a mess, they might pay a forester $5,000 to come up with a plan, and then pay a contractor $10-20,000 to go in there and clean up the mess and plant new trees. That could still be a win for the forester. Money doesn't have to come from the sale of trees, it can come from the land-owner's day job... If that's what's important to them, they will do it.

[g_man]

What typically happens here is someone flattens or severely high grades thier woodlot then sells it. Like you said the new owner does not need a management plan much more than "let it grow". But at the same time the new owner may want advise and guidance and lots of questions answered. There are lots of things foresters know that most new landowers dont. Why do you say you could not charge for this service and therefore won't do it.

[Okrafarmer]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Part of being a forester is being a consultant, right? Figure out an hourly rate and charge it. Nothing wrong with that. If you want your normal rate to be something like, oh, just pulling numbers out of thin air-- $100 an hour, you could say you have a $500 minimum, or something like that, just so that you don't waste your time. I do that for bulldozing, and you can do that for any service you offer. G_Man is right, a lot of property owners may have a lot of questions and need advice even if they don't have any marketable timber. They still should be willing to pay for that advice. (now if they aren't, then you don't go out to see them).