New forestry owner w/ 500acres of hardwoods needs help >> >>

[John Mc]

Looks like another land rape in progress.   

Amen. It's not just what you get now, you've got to wonder what you're going to be left with.

[Ron Scott]

FORESTER OR LOGGER

It is important to distinguish between the Forester and the Logger. The Forester is responsible for designing the forest plan, selecting the silvicultural system, planning for regeneration, determining the need for intermediate treatments, and arranging for the harvest. Silviculture is the art and science of tending and regenerating forest vegetation. The proper choice of silvicultural treatments depends on the interaction of timber types, soil and forest conditions, forest wildlife, and the landowner's objectives. Sustaining the forest ecosystem through integrated resource management should be included in the choice of treatments and the manner in which they are carried out.

A professional Forester can decide which silvicultural system and Best Management Practices for water quality protection are best suited for a forest stand. The Logger is the person who does the timber harvesting (logging) of the timber stand in accord with the management prescription developed by the Forester. The Logger produces the commercial forest products from the timber stand. Such products may include veneer logs, sawlogs, pulpwood, poles, posts, fuelwood, wood chips, or specialty products. The work activities of logging usually include felling, bucking, skidding, decking, and hauling. The three major types of harvesting methods used in Michigan are shortwood, tree length, and whole tree methods. Foresters and Loggers working closely together can provide prudent and environmentally sound forest management for the landowner.

[Jeff]

Looks like another land rape in progress.   

Ditto
Something is not right about your description of the Forester Visit. That "He'd ask 39k for the sale"  is a puzzler to me. Did he talk about anything other than timber value and volumes?  Did he discuss your responsibility for the capital gains/timber tax on revenue earned from a timber sale?  Did he discuss anything with you other than dollars?

[terry f]

     50/50 sounds too good to be true. If you don't have someone independent looking out for you that burn will be your best looking piece of your property. I'm told 150 to the landing, 90 to 100 trucking. White fir, spruce, lodgepole 235-255 thousand, doug/larch 285-310. The mill sets the price where they can make money and everyone else is takeing a piece of the pie. The trucker has costs, the logger has costs, and these numbers dont seem outragous to me, but how can a landowner watch a load of logs leave his place knowing he'll be lucky to get 100 dollars back. The slice of that pie gets smaller and smaller and someone will have to tell me what the foresters slice would be. Looks like everyone is makeing money except the landowner, who only has one chance in his lifetime to get it right.

[Ken]

As I am both a forester and a logger I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.  In my opinion most landowners are completely ignorant of forest silvics and timber value.  To overcome this lack of knowledge they should to do a number of things if they are contemplating a timber sale.  First they need to have an understanding of their forest and what may be available to harvest.  This could be done by hiring a forest manager (forest manager, technologist, etc).  There may also be some forest extension offices or other government departments that could offer low cost advice.  The landowner could also take the time to take a course or two or read some books to educate themselves.

When it comes to hiring a logger take your time to get it right.  Trees take decades to grow and a fly by your pants logger can make a mess very quickly.  Get several bids from the local contractors.  Check references thoroughly and take your time to look at sites done by loggers you are considering.  It's also a good idea to check the sites that a logger is currently operating in.  The landowner stands to make several thousand or tens of thousands of dollars on a significant harvest so it pays to take your time.   

If the landowner just wants to liquidate the property and get the highest return advertise heavily and get as many bids as possible for a lump sum up front payment.  Just make sure the contract outlines all the stipulations. 

[Black_Bear]

  ok lets say the price of sp logs is up by $50 dose that mean your comission went up also? most foresters around here get a percentage of the sale
[/quote]

The commission sale method has been a point of contention between loggers and foresters and the general public and foresters. I work for a flat fee that is not dependent on volume, but generally don't have a problem with commission sales. To each their own.

[Black_Bear]

Well let's see, since 2004 my every day commute to any given logging job has been measured in 1/10's of a mile.   So go figure, and no end in sight

Sounds like you have a good gig over there in the free world. It is very comforting to know that a job has no end in sight; not many good old boys up this way have that luxury. 

For 10+ years I cut wood for a medium size outfit in northern NH and VT and had a hard time switching to the forester hat. The hardest part was learning not to micromanage; I wanted to control the operations as well as the layout, but have since learned to draw the line and let everyone do their job. I let my layout control the operation.

We write contracts that stipulate ownership of the wood is transferred when it reaches the mill. Gives us more leverage over the marketing end. Most loggers like this arrangement because they get paid the same but don't have to be on the phone three times a week talking to wood buyers, etc.   

[Mishkin]

Ditto
Something is not right about your description of the Forester Visit. That "He'd ask 39k for the sale"  is a puzzler to me. Did he talk about anything other than timber value and volumes?  Did he discuss your responsibility for the capital gains/timber tax on revenue earned from a timber sale?  Did he discuss anything with you other than dollars?

I told him what I wanted to do - Clear cut my left side (that 163acres) and I wanted a little bit of the left side clear cut but only about 1/3.  Then in the back it's a select cut.  That's the 3 areas I want cleared.  The back part is some nice trees but he said they're "only getting worse" because of the fire damage.. which is strange to me since they've been growing fine for 30 years.  ?

I told him I wanted most of it cleared b/c I need more pastureland.   

He said if he was working for a warehouse he'd tell them to clearcut the entire tract because of the fire damage so a new stand would grow.

I asked him about the capital gains and he said it'd be best to "divide the farm from the woods" which I imagine just means forming a LLC or something and separating the two.   I called my accountant and he said the laws have changed and it would be taxed capital gains regardless if it was separated or not. 

He said he'd ask 39k for the sale of the 163 acres.  That's what he estimated the wood value to be at the current prices.  He has several people he works with and said since I wanted it clear cut he'd call this particular company and the'd come in and chip the entire tree.. tops and all.  Which would be great for me because I want to see most of it.
He really didn't talk to me too much about anything other then value.

Even hitting the 163 acres, I'd still have 200+ acres of very nice hardwoods growing.  So I really don't see myself "raping" the land.

Also, I've had several people and companies over here looking this past year and I get everything from "It's really nice stuff" to "they hit it hard, not much here, but we'll do it"

Then the forester came and I told him what I wanted..  I tried to go with him but we got separated after about an hour and I didn't see him again until about 7 that night.  He was pulling out of the driveway and I talked to him for a little while.  I just got his report in the mail yesterday.

I've been trying to log it myself but it's pretty hard to do it all by yourself and I'm not getting very far.  What I want logged only 1 spot is good timber, the rest isn't going to give me much value anytime soon, so it'd be best in pasture where I can make a lot of money on livestock.
 
I've been trying to get an honest opinion from someone for over a year now but everyone seems to say something different. 

That's why I'm posting on here, I need some help..

[Holmes]

  Mishkin Seems you are stuck between the rock and the hard place.  Its sounds like you are not pleased with the forester and believe me you can get a bad forester.You need to make the decision that you will be happy with, you have a purpose and reasons for the clear cut and you need to go with that. If you go with the logger make sure you totally understand how you will be getting your money and who will be seeing and adding up the tally sheets. Playing logger can be fun for a little while being a logger is a difficult  job.

[SwampDonkey]

For one thing you just trickle feed information of your intended use of the land. So it leaves people online, site unseen, to speculate. I hope you make a fortune on the livestock venture, but they are all going broke with cattle around here.

[Texas Ranger]

Well let's see, since 2004 my every day commute to any given logging job has been measured in 1/10's of a mile.   So go figure, and no end in sight

This is my last post on this line.  You have been logging 2000 acres since 2004.  Less than 300 acres per year.  Yep.

[Mishkin]

Mishkin Seems you are stuck between the rock and the hard place.  Its sounds like you are not pleased with the forester and believe me you can get a bad forester.You need to make the decision that you will be happy with, you have a purpose and reasons for the clear cut and you need to go with that. If you go with the logger make sure you totally understand how you will be getting your money and who will be seeing and adding up the tally sheets. Playing logger can be fun for a little while being a logger is a difficult  job.

I just did some figuring and it looks like for the 3 spots I'm getting - .05, .10, and .12 cents a board foot with the forester's bid.  The .12 cent area is pretty nice and I started taking in logs from the end already and I've been getting .40 cents++ for all the logs I've been taking in. (haven't even got to the real nice ones)   So his estimate is less then 50%.  I know they have to make money but those trees are pretty nice, straight, no branches, etc.   The bad thing is the terrain is really steep there so I can only get so many by myself with pulleys and cables.

Seems like that logger I talked to would give me a better price but its hard to say.  They said they'd give me a check every day / every load so that we know we're on the same page.

But with the forester's place they'll come in and take all the tops, build nice roads, etc.  The logger they'll just leave a mess for me so I'm not sure if it's worth the MAYBE extra 10-20k I'd get from the logger.  20k would buy a dozer and some people to help out for a while.... or course the other place might leave a lot too..   I know i'll have a lot to clean up no matter what..   

Hard decision for sure.

I might just call in another forester.. ... another 500 bucks...   


What do you guys think of the board ft. and prices I posted before?  They seem like reasonable prices or pretty low? 


Thanks everyone

[timbuck2]

Whoa there Tex, 2000 acres,holy moly, 20 acres can be a nice woodlot around here.   I did travel 16 miles last summer to clear roads and house lots on a big subdivision, but I got paid for the job plus got beautiful birch,maple and ash to boot.   I don't call that logging tho', I call that fun.   No forester needed there either.  Not to worry we Yankees still like Texan icon Willie Nelson and those famous lyrics, "momma don't let your babies grow up to be loggers, don't let em buy skidders and drive them big trucks".

[Jeff]

Mishkin, what bothers me is, is that a Forester is not going to give you a bid on selling your timber. He contacts the buyers and they give the bids. Me thinks your Forester is just a timber buyer in sheep's clothing.

[Shotgun]

Mishkin, what kind of a contractual arrangement did you have with your forester? I think that you need some written specifics and signatures for work of that sort and for that amount.  Did you check his credntials? It sounds as though you didn't get what you expected for the fee, which was apparently $500.  Did you pay him before the report, or after the report? Just wondering.

[Magicman]

The $500 has me puzzled.  I contacted my forester and he cruised the tract and marked the trees.  Bids were then sent out to the prospective buyers who then submitted their bids.  I personally opened the bids and the buyer was obvious.  The forester was paid an agreed upon % of the sale.  The forester made several visits during and after the logging to insure that the logging instructions in the bid were being followed and that proper cleanup and road restoration was done.

[Phorester]

MISHKIN; another link to the Kentucky Forestry Agency with different info that should help. 

http://forestry.ky.gov/LandownerServices/Pages/HarvestingandSellingYourTimber.aspx

Looks as if they mark timber and give the landowner a volume estimate.

You keep saying you have a forester, and a logger, who are giving you bids.  Who does the forester work for? Is he a bone fide forester with a degree in forestry and who is acting only as a consultant that handles timber sales for private landowners,  or does he buy timber too?

Also, as far as prices, you are getting information on this website from Maine to Mississippi to Oregon to Virginia to Canada.  No one on here can say if your prices are good or bad.  The only way to determine that is to seek out bids from local buyers at one time.  Don't get one this week another next week, another next month.  Prices vary monthly, weekly, if not daily.  You'll get a range, that's what your timber is worth at that time. 

[Mishkin]

Thanks for the replies.


I didn't have any contract with the forester.  He has a mechanical engineering degree and 2 forestry degrees.  He's been doing it for a long time.  He charged 500.00 to cruise the timber to estimate the amount and values.  He said he'd mark lines, make the contract, insure everything is cleaned up, roads fixed, etc.  I figured he knew what he was doing since he's been at it a while. 

The logger I'm talking about is just a guy I called a month ago to get his opinion.  The forester I just called last week.  He sent me a 3 page "report" on what was there, some topo maps marking what I want cut, and some notes.   I haven't paid him anything yet, he included a invoice in the report.

The reason he just gave me a price was because I want it all gone, so he knows this one company that will chop it all and take it leaving it pretty clean.  On 160+ acres thats a pretty big clean up.  Most other places would just leave all the tops. 

He wants 6% commission on the sale.

[Phorester]

Then this forester is working directly for you.  From what you've told us I think you're on the right track. It sounds like he had given you some preliminary information for the $500, and will conduct a timber sale for you for an additional 6% commission. 

You may have seen me post this info in other threads on here, but in case you haven't seen it; In my area, consulting foresters such as him will charge 5% - 15% for timber sales.  The higher rate on smaller sales. (It takes just as much time and effort to sell 50,000BF of timber as it does to sell 200,000BF).

A landowner in my area will get 200% to 300% more for his timber by paying a consultant to sell it than the landowner selling it himself. He usually gets a better logging job, too.

You're asking good questions here, but you have a lack of knowledge of timber sales, prices, buyers, etc.  This is not meant to be criticism. This is the situation the average forestland owner finds himself in when thinking about selling timber. (Which is why you're asking us questions, right?  ) Keep asking us questions, but at some point you will need to put your faith into this forester.  He can give you better answers to these questions than we can because he works in that locality, has talked to you directly, and  has seen your timber.  If you don't feel comfortable with him, find another consulting forester that you are comfortable with.

More info on the Kentucky State Forestry websites I gave the links for.

[John Mc]

Even hitting the 163 acres, I'd still have 200+ acres of very nice hardwoods growing.  So I really don't see myself "raping" the land.

Mishkin - I don't think anyone was trying to imply that you were raping the land. We have a couple of loggers in my area who are known for taking advantage of inexperienced landowners. They'll talk a good show, then come in and "high-grade" the place (i.e. "take the best and leave the rest"), leaving only garbage trees, high residual stand damage, rutted trails and upset owners in their wake (sometimes leaving with the job half done, because a better rip-off opportunity presented itself). They don't care about the impression they leave on the owner, because they know they won't be asked back again. Fortunately, those types are a small minority. The problem is, they really seem to get around.

I applaud the fact that you are doing the research, an making an attempt to understand what is involved in getting a good timber harvest on your property. To me, the real "rape" is when someone takes advantage of an unsuspecting, or trusting landowner, and basically robs them and their woodland blind, leaving something that will have little value for decades to come.

John