New forestry owner w/ 500acres of hardwoods needs help >> >>

[Mishkin]

Hi everyone,

First post and new to the forum.  Hopefully this weather isn't keeping everyone down...  I'm trying to get some work done but geez!!

Well, I purchased over 500 acres of land, I have around 450-500 of woods and a couple hundred acres of grass.  I'm working on building a profitable farm so I'm wanting to clear at least another 100 acres so I can build my herd numbers.  I also have a bunch too many trees growing in some of the pastures and while I want to keep some I need to clear some out. 

I have mostly oak.  Lots of it.  A couple hundred acres hasn't been touched for a while, it has large trees straight up 60'-70'? with no side branches.  I'm not sure the average diameter but I'd say 30" or larger.  Lots of tall and straight ones.

But really I'd like to just let that keep growing I'm mainly wanting to target other areas.  these trees are around 10-16" on the small end and they are about 40-50' tall straight with no or little side branches.  I've been cutting them in 20' sections as thats easier for my tractor to handle and get around through the trails.  I also have a lot that are just 12-14' long b/c they jagged off or damage, etc.  We had ice damage about 8 years ago that broke off a lot of tops.  These trees are dying, tops are dead side branches are alive with leaves..  They still look great when I cut them...  So I'm trying to get all those cut too.

-How much are these oaks normally worth?  Say a white oak 12" around, 12' long with no side branches.  Will anywhere give me money for that? 

-I also have about some acres thick in cedar trees that are 8" around about 12' up.  Those are average size I have a lot that are larger, 12" probably.  Are these worth anything or should I just keep them for posts?

I was thinking the best way to make the most money would be to buy a bandmill and saw them myself making beams, boards, flooring? and selling it myself. 

Couple questions with that.

-How do you keep the trees from cracking on the ends before you cut them?

-How do you keep the boards from cracking?


Is it possible to build a homemade kiln and achieve a proper dryness so the lumber doesn't shrink ?


Finally, when planting areas do you think it'd be better to go with a seed company promoting fast straight growth seedlings or go with like the conservation society or just grow some from my better trees and then plant?

sorry for all the questions I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make the most money on this land.   


couple pics for your enjoyment.. these are just random pics i took not trying to show anything. 

[img width=600 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/img85/8200/property3.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/img25/52/property1.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/img85/7161/property2.jpg[/img]

[Raider Bill]

Welcome to the forum!
That's some pretty land! Where is it?

[Mishkin]

Thanks,  it's in eastern ky.

[KBforester]

Well you have a lot of questions there.... seems like you have a heck of a lot going on!

Well, I'll comment on the clearing acres for your herd. I'm not sure what animals your herding, but if your in Eastern KY, I would seriously consider agro-forestry, more specifically, silva-pasture systems. In KY you should be able to blend husbandry with high value hardwood quite easily, making your acreage dual purpose and highly productive.

Just a thought.

-Kyle

[WDH]

I suggest that you get a Forester and develop a management plan.  The Forester will be able to answer your questions with the benefit of having seen the property. 

[Clark]

I'll second what WDH said.  You've got way too much going on there for anyone to give you solid answers via a brief description on the net.

Hire a forester to make a management plan for you.  Ask for references, see if he listens to you.  It would be great to hear what he has to say.  If you're not sure about specific parts of his plan I'm sure we could comment on them. Trying to cover the entire 500+ acres in one thread is too much!

Clark

[Okrafarmer]

Welcome to the forum! Congrats on the nice land! That's some beautiful property there. The good news is, you have enough of it to not run out of options too quickly. Looks like a forester would be a good bet for your property.

One thing I might consider on land you want to clear-- have the trees cut out of it and processed, and then fence it in and let your animals work on the brush for a while. After a couple years of that, they'll have reduced it down quite a bit and clearing the stumps and debris will be easier. If you're raising cattle, I would put steers and heifers on it, not cow calf pairs, as they are more vulnerable to injuries from the debris. Goats, sheep, or pigs will be even more efficient at removing brush (and loosening the ground, in the case of pigs) but they are harder to fence for. Believe me, I've dealt with all of the above.

If you are seriously interested in trying some of your own logging, sawmilling, and / or lumber drying, then there are some really great sections of this forum that deal with those topics and I suggest you read a lot of the stuff people have posted there.

With a property as large as you have, and with some valuable timber, I might add, you would be well off to invest in having a forester at least look at it and help you develop a plan.

Kentucky's a great place-- I'm guessing you probably got a beautiful deal on the land, as KY has some very reasonably priced land available these days.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto to what WDH and Clark stated above. You need the services of a certified forester and one certified in writing landowner forest stewardship plans. Also, get a copy of the Soil Survey for the county where your property is located.

[Mishkin]

Thanks for the replies.

I need to search on the forum more, it defiantly has a lot of information.

I'll contact a forester, they charge to come out?  

I'm doing a holistic management grazing plan with cattle, sheep, goats, and chickens.  The entire place is fenced but its old fencing *most of it* and I'm completely redoing the perimeter right now.  Has a half dozen or so ponds on the place and 4-5 of them need attention.

I might buy a bandsaw mill and start sawing beams and boards when funds permit.  I'm going to build some more barns so I think it'll pay for itself easily.

The land was priced OK I suppose.   It was extremely difficult to find any land that hadn't been completely clear cut and dozed up.  Even harder to find a large track thats not going to auction in 30 lots. Place has a '04 house, nice cabin on top of the ridge, and 5 barns. I was just looking at land and was going to do everything from scratch, so this saved me a lot of work.  Lots of fencing and gates around too.    I'm happy as can be as this is my dream.  I 'm going to get a couple horses soon also.

[WH_Conley]

Where at In Eastern Kentucky? I am in Lewis County.

[Magicman]

First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Go to your county extension office or NRCS office.  Your tax dollars are already paying them to provide some "get your feet on the ground" information.

You indicated leaving all of your mature trees to continue growing.  They may very well be costing you to leave them.  Sometimes taking out a selected tree will release several younger trees.  As others have said, you need a forester to make those decisions.

There should be a County Forestry Association there.  Join it.  I also recommend that you consider enrolling your farm in the American Registered Tree Farm system.  That free service will automatically give you a management plan.  (Plus a sign like the one on the Pecan tree.)
 

[Banjo picker]

Another thing about letting them get too big is that there will be some mills that won't take trees after they get to a certian size...Unless you want to ship them out west...I have a fairly large band mill and about 24" is all I want on the dia. of a log...it will take bigger but it starts taking a lot of extra time to handle it and get it lined up on the mill just so...Its hard to imagine unless you have wrestled with one for half a day...Tim

[tyb525]

To answer your question about the cracking/splitting:

Paint the log/lumber ends with several coats of latex paint, but even better yet, get some end seal wax made specifically for that purpose. I personally use Anchorseal made by UC Coatings. I bought a 5 gallon bucket for around $60 including shipping.

It's a water based wax emulsion, it's way better than paint in my opinion, however if you have some old paint you want to get rid of, it works ok.

[epiphoneprs]

I buy timber for a living. I would love to help. Mature oak is bringing a very solid price where I am from.

[Phorester]

As all the other foresters have said, get a local forester to take a look at it with you and write you a management plan.  Such a plan will consist of two main parts: the biology of your woods - soils, tree species, ages, growth rates, any insect & disease problems, etc.  Second part is what you want to get from your land - money from timber sales, wildlife for hunting, trout in a creek, picnic areas, etc. A start will be the Kentucky Division of Forestry:

http://forestry.ky.gov/LandownerServices/Pages/default.aspx

This link should get you to their forestry services page and talks about a forest stewardship plan for you. 

Not sure how many of their services are still free, in Virginia we now have very few services left that we (the VA Dept. of Forestry) can do for free.

[chain]

But, in the real world..of owning and managing a forest farm..you will be faced with many issues.  With your valuable property you will need an accountant, a professional forester, possibly a broker-contractor, many trustworthy contacts, and most of all lots of patience. As the foresters have dutifully anwered here in this thread, 'get your forest all measured up', a management plan,..and know your land; have you had your property surveyed, is your liability up to date?

Last of all and, this advice given to me by a caring logger, "if you're not adapted or knowlegeable about logging, particularly in rugged terrain, let the pros do the harvesting or logging may kill you!"

[Mishkin]

hey guys thanks for all the replies and info!   It's been beautiful here the last couple days (everywhere else is snow/ice storms) so I've been cutting and clearing.  Trying to get everything cleared for a nice perimeter fence.

I'll try to get a forester here but if they charge much it will have to be delayed.  I'm hurtin right now trying to sell my old place.

have you had your property surveyed, is your liability up to date?

Last of all and, this advice given to me by a caring logger, "if you're not adapted or knowlegeable about logging, particularly in rugged terrain, let the pros do the harvesting or logging may kill you!"

Yea I can see how easily it'd be to flip a tractor or have a tree pull you down a ridge, etc.  I'm pretty careful but you can never be too careful I suppose.  What do you mean when you ask, "is your liability up to date?"

To answer your question about the cracking/splitting:

Paint the log/lumber ends with several coats of latex paint, but even better yet, get some end seal wax made specifically for that purpose. I personally use Anchorseal made by UC Coatings. I bought a 5 gallon bucket for around $60 including shipping.

It's a water based wax emulsion, it's way better than paint in my opinion, however if you have some old paint you want to get rid of, it works ok.

Thanks, I remodel homes so I have lots of paint left over.  I' did put some on some logs a couple months ago I put 2 coats on and one of the logs still cracked. 

How long can they be cut, sealed and sit?  6 months?

Also, I've cut some dead trees laying in the woods and they are still beautiful inside, are these still OK to saw?

Another thing about letting them get too big is that there will be some mills that won't take trees after they get to a certian size...Unless you want to ship them out west...I have a fairly large band mill and about 24" is all I want on the dia. of a log...it will take bigger but it starts taking a lot of extra time to handle it and get it lined up on the mill just so...Its hard to imagine unless you have wrestled with one for half a day...Tim

I was thinking about that.  Largest log I've lifted so far was a 18' long 12" around one and the tractor picked it up fine but you could definitely feel the weight.  I'd probably want to stick with around 20" and below and anything bigger could be taken in.

Now I was reading about some mills and they claim you want one with an AUTO TENSIONER ?  Is this necessary?  they say it will make blades last a lot longer.

Go to your county extension office or NRCS office.  Your tax dollars are already paying them to provide some "get your feet on the ground" information.

You indicated leaving all of your mature trees to continue growing.  They may very well be costing you to leave them.  Sometimes taking out a selected tree will release several younger trees.  As others have said, you need a forester to make those decisions.

I've tried to contact the NRCS office probably 6 times and I've yet to speak with the agent.  I'll have to keep trying. 


I see your point about the older growth.  That entire area is so clean and nice thats the only reason I figured I'd not touch it, plus I have a lot of other areas to work on first..

I do need money though but I'm just afraid if I get someone in here they'll tear up the place with the skidders and dozers and leave me with a big mess I'll have to fix and clean up.  The guy I bought it off of has owned it since '64 and he's put so much time and energy in this place its amazing. 

Something I guess I can speak with the forester more about.





Again, thanks everyone for the replies, I'm obviously pretty new to all this so hopefully I can learn it pretty quick.

[Banjo picker]

I was thinking about that.  Largest log I've lifted so far was a 18' long 12" around one and the tractor picked it up fine but you could definitely feel the weight.  I'd probably want to stick with around 20" and below and anything bigger could be taken in.

Since you used those figures...here's the difference...Using maple which is kind of in the middle of the weight range..your 18' x 12" log will weigh about 700 lbs....if that 18' log is 20" it will weigh weigh nearly 2000 lbs....That info came from the little ed box on the left side of your screen under the sponsers logos...You will find it very helpful....Tim

[BaldBob]

" Largest log I've lifted so far was a 18' long 12" around..."

Did you mean 12" across (diameter) or 12" around as you wrote.  A log that is 12" around (circumference) is pretty small (<4" diameter) and is barely a pulp stick. Some of the answers you received assume you meant 12" diameter. The standard terminology when giving log dimensions is to use length and small end diameter.

[Mishkin]

yes I meant 12" across, not around.