Basic forestry

[jim king]

Is there a basic short version of what is forestry available ?   Even a primary or secoondary school hand book wood be more than what is available here.  The forestry law we have here says nothing about high grading, selective cutting, eliminiating deformed trees , bettering the forest etc..

All it talks about is controls over volumes without mention of anything else.  400 plus pages of controls but nothing about management.

[Jeff]

Gee, I'm not even sure that the science would be the same between North American Forestry and Forestry in the tropics.

[jim king]

Gee, I'm not even sure that the science would be the same between North American Forestry and Forestry in the tropics.

That is without question a factor in this mess also.  I just need a basic course to alter to our situation to give to the US Govt in Lima.  The law here was made after a frozen ground scenario and left out what is caring for a forest.  This is the classic high grading approval law and mentions nothing more than about 400 pages of controls such as having GPS responders on dug out canoes.

I have been ask by the State Govenrment to come up with a sensible law and " maybe" out the window with the Ecos and would like some back up data to attach to what I am going to say.

[Tom]

Vilsack's USDA hinchmen are  headed your way.  Don't turn your back on this trip.

Forestry anywhere has guidelines and rules that go much further beyond the "save a tree" crowd.  You know I'm not a forester, but forestry education in the USA was started with people like Hough and Pinchot, with ideas that include using the forests for its resources, protecting its inhabitants, Sustainability as well as recreation.  You can read about the efforts of Forestry that go back eons, England and the middle east.  Much of that is about what happens without sustainability concerns, but doesn't teach much about the how-to's of making it work.

Some of the best places to look, I would think, would be delving into the Stewardship programs in the USA,  The Tree Farm System, the ends of Forestry that work with the people. 

Chris Demers is our Stewardship contact here and has visited the Forum, albeit too briefly.  Perhaps he can offer some help and some insight from the University of Florida.  I'll send a note his way.

Here is one of the pages they use to promote Stewardship.
http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/florida_forestry_information/index.html

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you won't find a book with cook-book instructions that will lead to success.  It's going to take some people with the right frame of mind, the right direction, the willingness to learn and the choosing of the right causes.   I know you know that, but realize that it is mighty easy to get the cart before the horse.  You can't give a Politician an answer.  That's what he wants.  He wants one sentence that will cure the problem and he doesn't have to worry about it anymore.  Unfortunately, things like this require an education.

[banksiana]

The first step is autoecology research on the species you grow.  The next step is more research.  The final step is implementing the proper research and applying further research as you go.  It can be done but it takes some money. 

[jim king]

 

U.S. exports of agricultural, fish, and forest products alone expanded by 70 percent during this period.

This part is incredible but true.  Peru with the second largest land area of the entire Amazon forest is a net importer of wood.

http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/florida_forestry_information/index.html

I like that, simple and logical.  It even touches on the light extorsion of the certification groups.

[jim king]

banksiana:

The first step is autoecology research on the species you grow.  The next step is more research.  The final step is implementing the proper research and applying further research as you go.  It can be done but it takes some money.

Can you give me that in English ŋ

[banksiana]

banksiana:

The first step is autoecology research on the species you grow.  The next step is more research.  The final step is implementing the proper research and applying further research as you go.  It can be done but it takes some money.

Can you give me that in English ŋ

Yes, basically you have to know how each species grows and how to grow it properly so that you are sustaining the ecology of that particular species you wish to manage as well as species that co-exist with it in that system.  I am sure that some of this has already been done for your species.  Understanding how to grow it and not destroy the ecosystem around it is very important in forest management.  The first rule in intelligent tinkering is to not throw away any of the parts.  I forget who said that, but it is a viable statement in forest management.  It all boils down to sustainability as another poster recognized earlier.  I would love to come down there and be involved in some of that research or management.  Bringing such credible research in front of policy makers is a good way to establish good, new policy.

[Tom]

Sustainability is a catch-all word that has caused some of the worse Forestry practice/Political Guess-0-cology that ever hit the planet.  Peru has, what I think of, as the enviable opportunity to do it right.  To do so will require that the population has as much a part of the Forest as the trees.   Big business and higher politics may have there hearts in the right place, but the humans on the planet can't be ignored for the preservation of a garden.  Buzz words like Forest Biodiversity, ecology, destruction, deforestation, clear cutting, mono culture, protection, etc. are the tools of inflammatory rhetoric used by those with agendas other than  co-existence and the value of the human race.

That is what makes short and ethereal answers dangerous.  There are people (specifically politicians) who want the easy, one-word, solution that fits all.  It can be a slippery slope.  The time it will take to determine the secrets of the tropical rain forests will only be shortened by the knowledge of other countries. One must keep in mind that it is not only the ecosystem that is different, so are the people, the roads, the beliefs, as well as the government.   What works in one place may not work in another.  It will pay to walk slowly and softly.  Your own society needs to be involved and your people the source of the solutions.

We look upon the Forest as the Goose with the golden egg, when, in fact, it is the people who have the answers and will make things work.

Hopefully, some real and proven statements will come from those with experience with Government.

[Ron Scott]

Forest Management Guidelines For Michigan. These are currently in the process of being updated.

http://michigansaf.org/Business/MSAFguide/MainPage.htm

[SwampDonkey]

Jim, you have to know or have some idea what will be the result of your actions in each forest type. What do the words jungle and tropical rain forest mean? I don't think I've ever seen a cook book written, of recipes to manage those forests. You can't rely on some country in the northern hemisphere to manage your forests. What we do up here, while some of the processes may apply, are not likely to fit down there. To begin with there is no blanket prescription either, that can be applied on every acre of ground. Although our government would like to apply clear cutting to everything, although that is slowly changing in hardwoods, because one prescription no guess work. They can look from the road, yup it's cut, and saves a ton of money on administering. Versus a whole bunch of different techniques/prescriptions that requires someone to leave the road to inspect the quality of the standing crop trees.

Always keep in mind that what works in this stand of trees (grouped by species composition,age,height etc) differs from the next stand. Also, similar stands may not even fit exactly into one prescription or goal of it's manager. Age, health, shade tolerance, density (stems/acre), soil type all influence management before you even get to the economics because a lot of what you do now is for some future outcome. That leads us to another consideration. That is, getting beyond managing for the markets of the day. You can't predict the future $$hot species$$, you have to manage what you have. Also, you can write the greatest management plan ever written. But, will it work on the ground? With the way the forest grows down there, with things changing so fast over 10 years is a management plan much good to you to begin with? Yes, it gives you direction and guidance, even if things change. You just have to have the ability to keep records of your actions to predict where your heading. I don't use the word "know" because it's not a firm number. There is not a firm number of trees, or volumes, or value at any time in this business. You have to "adapt" the management actions sometimes. Remember, all the numbers within that management plan are just a snap shot in time. Are all those parcels/stands of timber accessible, or maybe only part of the year, or maybe near impossible? You have to deal with catastrophes (flooding,wind, insects) as well. Again you have to adapt.

Understanding your trees, not only within, but with their neighbors, the silvics and the consequences of actions, the economics is not easy. It takes specialists in the many aspects to pool together knowledge, to work together and maybe even learn something new. The people down there need to have the desire to do something and maybe someone to open their eyes. And remember, it's not always what's best for the forest, but what about the manager? If the manager doesn't count for anything then why grow and nurture the crop?

[jim king]

Lets start with this:

USAID initiative to support AmazonĄŊs biodiversity
US Agency for International Development (USAID) will provide an initial $50 million investment over the next five years (2006-2010) in an initiative to help preserve the Amazon BasinĄŊs biodiversity. USAIDĄŊs investment will support community groups, governmental entities and public and private organizations in the Amazon region. USAID has requested applications from parties interested in obtaining grant money to participate in the Amazon Basin Conservation Initiative. The initiativeĄŊs aim is to bring together indigenous and local communities, conservationists and decision-makers from the Amazon region countries to help address common conservation challenges, such as conflicts over the use of forests and other valuable natural resources.

Now bankasia:

Yes, basically you have to know how each species grows and how to grow it properly so that you are sustaining the ecology of that particular species you wish to manage as well as species that co-exist with it in that system.

There are thousands of experts on the Amazon and a handful have come here and got drunk and left the rest do their research in NY..  The fact is that there has never been a study such as you are explaining in the history of the Amazon.  No one has any idea of how many species there are here , much less soil types needed for species, growth rates etc...

This is very well said Tom, these are feel good money raising terms for people who have not a clue to send money to an Non Profit Company.

Buzz words like Forest Biodiversity, ecology, destruction, deforestation, clear cutting, mono culture, protection, etc. are the tools of inflammatory rhetoric used by those with agendas other than  co-existence and the value of the human race.

The Amazon as other tropical forests is not a productive area for lumber production and it never will be.  We have an unknown biodiversity of species and not enough of any species to be commercially viable.  Of 100 or more species per hectare only 6 of 8 trees per hectare now have a commercial value thus making lumber a specialty market.  We do not have forests of one or two dominent species.

I am of the opinion that there at this time is no solution to put common sense into the worlds minds and only the continued destruction of the Amazon by the do gooders that will end up in a social convulsion here will in the end bring the Ecos out of thier burrows and put sanity into the world. 

In the meantime I will just keep trying albeit apparently a useless cause for the next 25 years while the Ecos reighn.

[jim king]

Just one more note.  Deforestation in the Amazon is impossible by logging as not one logger has the money to deforest a hundred species per hectare for the fun of it when 6 or 8 trees are marketable.  Alternative land use and slash and burn are the death of the Amazon.

[SwampDonkey]

Jim it appears to me that the situation is just like any other foreign aid program. Absolutely no over site. They set up a system to fail to begin with, and basically take proposals in one hand and dish out cash in the other whether it makes sense or can even work on the ground.

I have seen people leave here with nothing to their name, no university, spend time in one of the poorest countries in Africa, doesn't matter which-pick one, comes back after 8-10 years and builds a mansion of a place. And continue being idle as far as work goes. I can't for the life of me understand how these "magicians" do it.  I guess my eyes are open wider than others around me. Traffic on a  dead end very rural farm community road after 12:00 am until 3:00 am ........

[Tom]

Jim,
I don't see it as being as dismal as you might feel about it now. The World Press is making money on reporting the demise of the Amazon Rain Forests.  It's not helping a thing.  To get a handle on the situation is going to take local and Peruvian governments slowing down, devising a plan with a reasonable goal and reasonable time-line and bringing the citizens on board.  If it is anything like it is here in the USA, education of the populace is what will drive the Government.  To get the expertise that latently resides in your citizens, the government must make this education affordable, perhaps even pro bono to keep everyone on the same page. Quit listening to other Governments, regardless of what they offer. You will find that there will be all kinds of things shoved down your throats if these people think they  can make some money off of you, or garner some kind of friendship.

The Peruvian Government is the captain of its own ship.  It is laden with riches beyond imagination, Freedom being the most important.  The land is yours, your people's, your Governments whether you be a President, tax collector, forester, farmer or laborer.  The People must realize the ownership.

I know you and they will find a way. Help is available from many nations but you can't sell out your allegiance to intimidation from "carpet baggers".

[banksiana]

I would pull stakes and head down there and work in a heartbeat.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been trying to figure out where you're trying to go with this.  Finding books on forestry doesn't really make much sense to me, since I haven't figured out the crucial element so you can go forward with a plan of action.

That element is the goal.  What is the end game in all of this?  Is it economic or biological?  How different is your goal from the governments?  If your goal and the government's are miles apart, all the forestry books in the world won't bridge the gap.

Usually, the forester comes from the goal standpoint, then finds what is in the stand, and how you can meet those objectives, either in the short term or the long term.  The current buzz word is sustainability, but what are you sustaining?  If its just ground cover, than species don't matter.  If its a fiber concern, than species and growth rates matter a whole lot more.  If its habitat for flora and fauna, then species and their interactions are a big concern.  Outside influences also play a role. 

Start with short term and long term goals, then work from there.  Just my opinion.

[jim king]

 

To get a handle on the situation is going to take local and Peruvian governments slowing down,

This has been done and this government has passed the hot potato on to the next congress that has will not be elected until April .  I got this done with a very nasty but fact filled letter to every congressman and a variety of others.

Here is a short quote from the monthly ITTO report.  This is the strong the political strong arm that the US is using.

Congress debate on draft law deferred
The draft Forestry and Wildlife law was not debated in the Congress in December and it will be discussed in the next term from March to June. The new Forestry and Wildlife law is needed to fulfil the conditions of the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the United States. If the law is not passed, the FTA will be at risk of being cancelled.

I've been trying to figure out where you're trying to go with this.

  The goal here is to make a viable forestry industry , create employment, slow down the cocaine business and stop indiscriminate deforestation for alternative land use  out of what could currently be described as an arts and crafts level forestry industry.  The Amazon covers 59 % of the land area of Peru and produces less than one % of its GDP.  Peru is a net importer of wood.

How different is your goal from the Governments.

  As there are not many votes in the Amazon and the voting system for congressmen is on a national level the politicians really have little interest in the Amazon.  They follow the goodies from the Non Profits  and the NGOs control the news media..

The Peruvian Government is the captain of its own ship.

In this case the "Free Trade Agreement" and the US Government is the captain of the ship.

I am now writing a series that will last six days in the local newspaper that is to say the least simple and direct.  It is in Spanish so not much good to post it.

If I missed commenting on some point to someone please post again.

[jim king]

Here is a letter that I am working on to go out this week to some US Government people.  I think it may be to logical to make an impact.  As you can see I am talking at a primary level as the people in charge really have no grasp of the facts.  That is why I am looking for a Dick and Jane level book on forestry.

.



The development of the Amazon is inevitable as long as the population explosion continues and a simple plan is needed to control development it in an orderly fashion..  
There is a constant need for access to both the Putamayo on the Colombian border for control of the FARC and drugs and to  the Javari on the Brazilian border for drug control  that does not currently exist.
Why not kill two birds with one stone and build a road from Iquitos to the Putamayo and from Nauta to the Javari.  This would encompass about 300 KM of roads which is insignificant as compared to the WWF forestry plan.  With 300 kilometers of roads there would be 3 KM of access each side of the road.  As it is not feasible to log with a skidder much more than 3 kilometers this would allow 1800 square kilometers or 180,000 acres of forestry tracts or sufficient for the tiny forestry industry we have here.  Also as the time of logging with traditional skidders is coming to and end other less damaging methods are starting to take over.   http://www.morooka.com/prd.html .

 I have to assume that the Chinese would finance these roads if they had access to purchase half the wood at international prices.

The roads could be opened for tracked vehicles in a matter of weeks by the loggers them selves and the wood brought out by Marooka type tracked vehicles that would not destroy the first stage of the road as trucks of tractors would do.  The construction of the roads could be done parallel to the logging road.

This would open access for police and military to the borders.  It would create a population center on each border that does not currently exist and is necessary.  All wood coming in would be transported on two roads with one check point at the end of each road.  A tremendous amount of employment would be created in an orderly fashion.

Each parcel allocated for logging would have access and not as the current situation with the concessions that are useless and the cause of the sale of volumes for wood from accessible areas.  No slash and burn would be allowed except for one hectare per each three square kilometer  parcel for food production.

People must be educated how to till the soil and continue using the same area as to not continue the primitive slash and burn procedure..  

As the quality woods of the Amazon are over 50% dense species the obvious future of a sustainable industry is flooring.  Flooring can be cut into 4 to 6 foot cants with a chain saw in the forest and carried out to access trails by hand where it can be then transported out to a staging area by Marookas  for transport to Iquitos initially by Marookas and later by the new roads..
 


This labor intensive method of bringing out short flooring cants is non destructive.
 


Cants stockpiled and being inspected ready for transport to the city.
 



 



[img]http://This is the problem with mechanized logging in the forest.


 I was unable to get the WWF map idea to post but the photo of the skidder tracks above explain it.
This is the theory put forth by the WWF on how to log in the Amazon and it was approved.  Fortunatly is was impossible or it would have been the biggest deforestation project in the history of tropical forestry.


Chainsaw harvesting contrary to the myth that it is wasteful yields more wood per tree when cut into cants than harvesting in log form.  Also it does no more damage to the jungle than trees naturally falling over.  It is true that cutting 1” boards with a chainsaw wastes a bit more wood than traditional logging.

There is a lot to discuss and a lot of benefits to be had on this topic if the closed minds in Lima can be pried open.  It seems so reasonable and doable.

[jim king]

I donīt know why but the WWF logging theory will post here but not on the last post. 

Can you imagine if this was implemented on several million hectares of swamp and mud.

[SwampDonkey]

Jim even here, GDP of forestry is only 8 or 9 % for NB and BC and most other provinces it's under 3 %. And forestry is everywhere. GDP has actually slipped about -0.8% , worse in some other provinces. Don't be discouraged by the low numbers. Because your comparing things up against industries that have much higher returns...wholesalers, mining-gas exploration, government social programs.

[jim king]

The Peruvian Government is the captain of its own ship.  It is laden with riches beyond imagination, Freedom being the most important.  The land is yours, your people's, your Governments whether you be a President, tax collector, forester, farmer or laborer.  The People must realize the ownership.

Tom:

I just reread and picked up on your statement.  A basic problem here is that you may have title to the land but the government retains ownership of the trees.

It is not to dissimilar to the US where you have a title to your land but if you donīt pay your taxes you soon find it repossed by the real owner.

[cdemers]

The only thing I can add is, after a very quick web search, I could find no link to any kind of forestry extension or forest management assistance in Peru.  I'm not sure if "basic forestry" is an appropriate title for anything dealing with tropical forestry.  This is perhaps the most complex forestry in the world.  Throw in all the land tenure issues that exist in many tropical regions and you have a challenge beyond anything we deal with in the US.   I'm not sure what, if any, tenure issues come into play in this discussion, but (and this is stating the obvious) whoever has access to the land in question will influence the management.  That would be the first issue I'd try to get a handle on before going into any kind of management planning process.
 

[SwampDonkey]

I'm not sure what, if any, tenure issues come into play in this discussion, but (and this is stating the obvious) whoever has access to the land in question will influence the management.  That would be the first issue I'd try to get a handle on before going into any kind of management planning process.

There is no way that first statement can possibly be excluded from management planning, it's all a part of the process. It's called "stake holders".

[jim king]

   cdemers:

The only thing I can add is, after a very quick web search, I could find no link to any kind of forestry extension or forest management assistance in Peru.  I'm not sure if "basic forestry" is an appropriate title for anything dealing with tropical forestry.  This is perhaps the most complex forestry in the world.  Throw in all the land tenure issues that exist in many tropical regions and you have a challenge beyond anything we deal with in the US.   I'm not sure what, if any, tenure issues come into play in this discussion, but (and this is stating the obvious) whoever has access to the land in question will influence the management.  That would be the first issue I'd try to get a handle on before going into any kind of management planning process.

To answer some of your questions you are right, there is little if any information on tropical forestry available on the internet with the exception of all the BS put out but the Non Profit industry.  

I have the largest data bank on tropical forestry in Peru which is bigger than all the collections in the country put together and it fits in one good sized room.  That tells you something.  There has to my knowledge been only one significant study of a few thousand acres done in Manaus , Brazil that is quite good.  Guyana has a reasonable data bank and the other countries zilch.

We do have a number of people who want to sell books passing thru and they will go take some pictures , put a name on the tree and publish a book and are instant experts.

The tropical wood identification program used to be a done deal until the internet came along.  Now with the interchange of information that is happening it is a mess.  Some of the species have dozens of scientific names.  Years and centuries ago people were wandering around the world discovering tree species and nameing them without knowing that a couple dozen other guys were also out there naming the same species with a different name.  Now we have a disaster in that area.

As for growth rates one can only go by what one has seen in his lifetime and what the oldtimers say as to when that tree was not there.  There are no studies.  As many internet sites talk about 500 foot tall 500m year old Mahogany trees being decimated it is simply absurd but good advertising.  From over 40 years sloshing around the tropics in Africa and the Amazon I do not think many trees are over fifty years.

Trees here can be a hundred feet tall and have a three foot deep root system.  Every night we have a breeze at dark before the rain and many trees within hearing distance fall over as they have grown above the canopy and when the breeze hits them right over they go.

It is impressive that with the Hundreds of millions of dollars raised every year in the name of saving the Amazon there has been no studies of what makes it tick.

I did get a phone call today from the Head of the Natural Resourses Forestry Dept in Lima  for Peru and was told that this week the US Embassy has cut way back on funding of the crazy laws thru the non profits.  More details on that should be coming out soon to see if it is true.  The person from Lima will be here on the 17th and wants a meeting , it may be interesting.

It cannot get any worse.

[banksiana]

What would it take to come down there and work?  Are there any jobs?  Data collection?  Research projects?

[jim king]

banksiana :
I donīt know of a way that anyone could come down here and study the forest without having a University , a government  or some other type organization supporting them.  I have seen a few students come thru but they dont last long.  The cost of being in the jungle and everything that goes with it are high.

You would think that with all the promotion of the Amazon and all the supposed problems some one would have something other that some Google Earth Sat photos and a photo of an Indian from a helicopter.

As for working here there is nothing available and it is not legal without a work permit but having said that there are many foreighners here that simply stay out of sight for one reason or another and have no problems.

Tropical forestry is fun and always comes up with a new species nicer than anything you have seen before but tropical forestry will never be a significant factor in the worldwide industry.  The diversity of species makes it difficult to have a production level sufficient for an industry.  With a hundred species per acre and half a dozen trees with a market it is not going to happen not to mention the elements to fight.  That is why you see pictures of burning jungle for pasture , palm oil plantations etc. as the wood is so diverse in species and mostly useless people donīt waste time with it.

The only people who are making money in the Amazon related to wood is the Non Profit Industry telling the world they are going to save it and just send money.  Angola, the Congo and many other areas have problems much greater than the Amazon but the names are not magic money draws as the Amazon. 

To make it short I donīt know how you could accomplish your goal of living and studying here without a large corporation or some other source taking an interest.

[banksiana]

Must be that it happens to all developing countries.  Here in Minnesota we supposedly had vast resources of white and red pines that could have been managed better and we still would have them.  But instead the lumber companies cleared them out.  Only after it was done did we get into decent forest management practices.  We do have very nice forests now however.  Aspen is king up here now, and as it turns out, aspen is an extremely easy species to manage for, so we are lucky.   

[MFinity]

Jim,

Sounds like you've researched your own area as thoroughly as anyone, so you may already know there is an International Society of Tropical Foresters - a much smaller outfit than it sounds like  - but you may (or may not) find some helpful contacts.

http://www.istf-bethesda.org

Cheers and good luck,

Mike

banksiana :
I donīt know of a way that anyone could come down here and study the forest without having a University , a government  or some other type organization supporting them.  I have seen a few students come thru but they dont last long.  The cost of being in the jungle and everything that goes with it are high.

You would think that with all the promotion of the Amazon and all the supposed problems some one would have something other that some Google Earth Sat photos and a photo of an Indian from a helicopter.

As for working here there is nothing available and it is not legal without a work permit but having said that there are many foreighners here that simply stay out of sight for one reason or another and have no problems.

Tropical forestry is fun and always comes up with a new species nicer than anything you have seen before but tropical forestry will never be a significant factor in the worldwide industry.  The diversity of species makes it difficult to have a production level sufficient for an industry.  With a hundred species per acre and half a dozen trees with a market it is not going to happen not to mention the elements to fight.  That is why you see pictures of burning jungle for pasture , palm oil plantations etc. as the wood is so diverse in species and mostly useless people donīt waste time with it.

The only people who are making money in the Amazon related to wood is the Non Profit Industry telling the world they are going to save it and just send money.  Angola, the Congo and many other areas have problems much greater than the Amazon but the names are not magic money draws as the Amazon. 

To make it short I donīt know how you could accomplish your goal of living and studying here without a large corporation or some other source taking an interest.

[banksiana]

Round trip flight Minneapolis to Lima is 1500 or so.  Considering this country for a vacation now that I am intrigued about it.

[SwampDonkey]

Is there a "Golden Arches"?

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,21706.msg308281.html#msg308281

[Phorester]

In addition to all the above discussion, a very basic underpinning for you (and the rest of us too):

In the broad sense, I don't think your problems are any different than in the USA.  You are dealing with people  (mainly politicians) who know squat about trees or woods or jungles.  They respond only to loud vocal touchy-feely politically correct environmental groups who jump on the latest know-it-all environmental bandwagon who also know squat about trees or woods or jungles.  In your case it may be a world-wide perception regarding rain forests in general that your govt. also feels pressure from.

I think the bottom line is that foresters have to come at this from a very basic biological perspective.  Trees are plants. They need dirt, water, and sun to grow. People can understand this. It cannot be argued against. Forests are collections of plants.  All a forester does is manipulate that dirt, water, and sun to favor the plants (trees) that are wanted.  

We have no control over the soil.  We can conserve it and protect it from degradation, but we cannot effectively improve the fertility, depth, structure, etc. We have to work with the soil that is already there.  

We have no control over the water.  We cannot make it rain or snow.

We do have control over sunlight. We use different cutting practices; thinnings, selective harvests, clearcutting, shelterwood harvests, etc, etc., etc., to manipulate the amount of sunlight that gets to the trees we want to grow. All a forester does is manage sunlight in a forest.

So a basic point is to emphasize that it is basic plant biology, nothing more.  This cannot be intelligently argued against. It can be evaded, ignored and downplayed, but there is no effective argument against basic plant biology.  

Therefore, forests should be managed by basic plant biological concepts, not by administrative decree.

I think that if you start from this perspective you will have the strongest argument possible. Your politicians also need to realize that this is their strongest argument for effectively and properly managing their jungles.  They need to be made aware that their opponents cannot effectively argue against this position.  It is what's best for the jungles based on basic biological principles.

[BaldBob]

Phorester,
All that you say is true (though there is evidence of several instances  in Central and South America where native people vastly improvved  the fertility and structure of the soil on fairly large tracts by layering waste and charcoal). However, the problem  you are addressing lies largely in the fact that there is no concenus in society on what the desired outcome of any management should be - i.e. what is "best'".  If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

[Tom]

From having read so many of Jim's missives, I gather that Forestry isn't the only concern.  It seems to me that misinformation and politically motivated decisions are keeping the population's working class in an ever continuing social incarceration of poverty. 

Whether the Jungle's Species have been defined or not, the rules laid on these people have them indiscriminately clearing the land with fire to be able to do subsistance farming and growing of drug crops.   It's the backing of the Science of Forestry that Jim is asking for more than wanting manpower help.  He needs people who have been schooled to provide the books, the reports, the schooling, the ideas, anything that would get the political system to look at Forestry as a solution to so many of the country's other social problems.  The only ideas are coming from desk jockeys  who are pushing for dollars to be pumped into the area through agencies whose agenda is the gathering of the money under the auspices of Save-the-world environmental green-speak.  All the talk in the world isn't going to do any good if the players don't know the rules.   The plea is for help identifying the rules.

At this point, there isn't enough knowledge to ask a question, so to speak.  I think that the request for Forestry oriented books and reports and philosophies is an effort to get the people (and the government) knowledgeable enough to ask a question.  I also personally believe that It is up to the people of Peru to make their own educated decisions.  The influx of NGO's and Politicos from other countries, who make a showing just to benefit their economic standing or to place themselves in the decision making hierarchy of Peru is a detriment to the ability of a sovereign nation to self-govern.

Whew!

[BrandonTN]

Waayyy back, Tom said:

Big business and higher politics may have there hearts in the right place, but the humans on the planet can't be ignored for the preservation of a garden.  Buzz words like Forest Biodiversity, ecology, destruction, deforestation, clear cutting, mono culture, protection, etc. are the tools of inflammatory rhetoric used by those with agendas other than  co-existence and the value of the human race.

Forestry is as much a social puzzle as biological & economical.
Yep...Politicians do politics as their source of bread, butter, and Benz. They use what's in the spotlight (ie sustainable forest resource management, biodiversity) as their "buzz words", while the eco-extremists scream for protection emotionally and blindly. The two work together...Politicians win votes by emotions!!  It's a shame that people are being robbed of their natural right to survive via the forest because a far away politically pushed decision prohibits "destruction" when stewardship education is obviously the practical solution.  
...But forest scientists also use the words: forest biodiversity, sustainability, ecology health... They are good concepts to be studied...but I think their is a huge gap between the knowledge and, like you said, the how-to. We need people to bridge this gap on the ground, in the real world.

But in Jim's case and the tropics, I guess even the biological knowledge is scarce. I agree, the Peruvian government should handle it. The US sending a few supplies for them to build a house on sand won't help. There is always a bigger picture to see, that is the challenging part. So complex to see...especially for an outsider.

Tom said just before:

I also personally believe that It is up to the people of Peru to make their own educated decisions.  The influx of NGO's and Politicos from other countries, who make a showing just to benefit their economic standing or to place themselves in the decision making hierarchy of Peru is a detriment to the ability of a sovereign nation to self-govern.

...Re: the NGOs: Good point. The extremist in me wants to protect tropical forests blindly, but it's not as easy as that.  I know little specifics about what is the situation in the tropics. The Peruvians know, though!

[jim king]

I know little specifics about what is the situation in the tropics. The Peruvians know, though!

As of last count there was 86 species with incomplete vouchers in the complete governmental and University of Peru.  Only missing a few thousand.

[SwampDonkey]

Jim, I think the situation with the government investing in forestry is similar to here. If the minister is not popular he's taking up space and the sector will suffer. If he's at least half way knowledgeable about what he's doing the department gets more funding to get things done. When the sector is generating small revenues compared to others the government is not as friendly to the small producer. They only think on the big scale, not you and your workers and small volumes. It's not right, but that's how they do it here. This gives the government fewer players to deal with. If we didn't have marketing boards up here it would be the same. They only want to talk to one voice, marketing board, forest products association, forest products commission.