1/4 sawing on a band mill?

[Just Me]

 I've helped a friend of mine 1/4 saw with his circle mill a few times, supposedly the very first Corley ever built, and was wondering how the most efficient process goes with a band mill. Can't see it being much different but everyone I know with a band mill just plain saws. When I saw for myself I will want 1/4 sawn mostly so I was wondering the process you use. Removing the 1/4's off of his mill was fairly easy, but seems it would be more difficult with a band mill.

Thanks, Larry

[tyb525]

I know other's have some good diagrams. There are at least 2 ways to do it.

1. Quarter the log (you might have to take a few trim cuts if it is too wide for the throat). Then clamp those quarters in the orientation that will be closest to quarter sawn. Then after every cut you rotate the quarter, and take a trim cut, in order to get as close to quarter sawn as possible. It makes a lot of waste and takes a lot of time, but you get the best results this way.

2. Take a cut or two off each side to get 4 flat faces. Then cut the log in half. You could saw a board or two off the face of the two cants you now have. You then cut the halfs in half, and saw from the face that will give you the most boards closest to 1/4 sawn.

That's my understanding of it, however I'm sure other's have better methods. It's hard for me to 1/4 saw much of anything on my mill unless it is about 17" or smaller, and on logs that small it's hard to get much 1/4 sawn material.

[Wrangler55]

Do some google searches and you'll find a lot of information about quartersawing on a band mill.  When I started, I just picked out the quartersawn boards because some of the boards will always have quartersawn oriented grain.  Then I made a jig. It's a simple box triangle made from plywood 5 or 6 ft long.  A quartered log will have a 45 degree edge when the quarter is turned on edge.  The apex of the quarter is toward the jig and the quarter is held firmly. My jig is just wide enough to span two log stops and one dog holds the quarter slab.  Then I take off boards till I get to the center of the quarter, remove the jig, turn the flat side down and again saw from the top till I get back to the middle.  There is some waste from small boards at the top and bottom of the quarter. I think oak and sycamore make the best looking quartersawn lumber. Oh, glue and screw your jig together, then after the glue dries, take out the screws and drive in dowels... Sooner or later, you'll cut too far and hit the jig... Which I've never done, and anyway I wasn't even there when it happened...

The Woodmizer site has some great infomation about quartersawing.  The method they use reduces the amount of handling for the heavy quarters.  Most of the logs I want to quartersaw have to be split before they fit on my sawmill anyway.

Hal

[tyb525]

Just to add to what Hal said, Beech can have nice quarter sawn figure too. I've heard of sawyers quarter sawing walnut, I guess instrument makers like it.

[Magicman]

There are many different ways/ideas.  I have diagrams that I show the customer and let them decide.  The one that I prefer is to take a few slices from the center of the squared cant.  Remove these and flip 90°.  Take a few slices from the center and remove these.  Then flat/rift saw the 4 remaining smaller cants.

This method does not get all of the available ¼ sawn lumber available, but all of the boards are equal in size and there is no waste except for the pith in the first boards removed.

[Jeff]

Forum searches are better. You are aready where the answers are.

[Larry]

What Jeff said, as there are a lot of different ways.

Mills with big throats have an advantage over some mills.

[terrifictimbersllc]

....  Then flat/rift saw the 4 remaining smaller cants.  .....

These rift sawn cants may give good furniture leg stock in that the grain appearance on all 4 faces may be similar.  

[SwampDonkey]

Arkansawyer, Bibby and Tom and a whole bunch more have lots of talk on quarter sawing right here. Won't get any better. 

[Magicman]

Printed out pages of those different methods are what I show the customer.  It's a lot easier to explain when you have a picture.   And when they see all of the illustrations, they generally choose the method that I described in Reply #4 above.

[Slingshot]

  Here is a You-tube video showing quarter-sawing an oak log
on a Woodmizer...

 



____________________
 

[redbeard]

Nice informative video, The best step he talked about is leveling the pith or log center from the deck, Not sure why he didn't cut log down center again he went up a few inches it gave him wider boards but it also gave him the center in a couple of them i think that's what he was calling shake.He didn't show how you do the smaller quarters he pushed off, when there like that in a pie shape he has to cut the boards off the deck, which means set the blade a inch off deck clamp the pie shape, saw, raise up return, flip to other flat side, clamp lower head to 1"saw and keep repeating.I prefer to cant the log then split it into 4 smaller cants flip them but saw from the top down not off the deck. Basically your trying to keep the end grain 60-90 degree on your boards. You get a few wider boards that way but your cutting alot of bark.

[ATLGA]

Slingshot,
I really enjoyed your video. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[northwoods1]

Slingshot,
I really enjoyed your video. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I've been to that guys place and he gave me a tour of his log home and operation. He is , or was, a forester by profession. He was doing real well by recovering what would be considered normal waste in most logging operations , such as short pieces and butts. He would haul them home and saw them into flooring. When I was there he was busy turning pen blanks and making pens , and supplying local shops with them at $20+ per piece. He couldn't keep up with the demand. Doesn't sound like much, making pens I mean, but it didn't take very long to make one. That big old barn in the background , a portion of it has a large humidity & temp controlled room which is packed floor to ceiling with a variety of wood he has scavenged from all over then sawed , dried, and planed. Lot of short stuff , but a true woodworkers dream come true as far as a hoard of wood goes. Very knowledgeable guy , but I saw some things that really puzzled me. Like redbeard was saying , when I was there I tried to explain to him that a heart being in a board was not a good thing and he could not understand the concept or why. Also, his log house he built it out of large diameter aspen. Aspen shrinks a tremendous amount and most would know that it is not a very good choice for a log home. The radial shrinking of it caused huge cracks to open up in the walls, all I could think of was boy that was a disaster. But the floor he had in there... unreal! Wide hardwood and all of it curly. All mixed species. I have never seen such a spectacular floor anywhere. He also wrote a book called "Full Vigor Forestry" regarding forest management from a landowners point of view. A lot of it had to do with his ideas about forming cooperatives for landowners to help manage and market their wood , some of his ideas where kind of controversial.

[SwampDonkey]

He also wrote a book called "Full Vigor Forestry" regarding forest management from a landowners point of view. A lot of it had to do with his ideas about forming cooperatives for landowners to help manage and market their wood , some of his ideas where kind of controversial.

The cooperative thing has been the scenario up here and in many European countries for years. The thing that sets it apart in Europe is they are in control of the processing end as well as the management and marketing.

We have 7 regional marketing boards and coops here in NB. That's the only way a woodlot owner is going to have his say. If he goes it alone than he never gets heard. But the industry would like to crush any kind of coop. They've been trying to here, but the coops still hold firm. Things are just about to go another round if some current issues, issues on-going since 1993, don't get ironed out. The last time we marched on the legislature the government shut the doors to us for 4 years. 

I have never read the book, but I have heard that title used before. I don't know if there is a connection. It sometimes leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth.

[woodmills1]

yes, you are where you can get an answer to your question

[laffs]

if someone had a resaw then quarter swing would be a sinche. other than that its pita. if the log is big enough you could square it then cut out the center and go from there.

i read a lot of stuff on timber green farm the guy made good money on the flooring thing he says

[Dave Shepard]

For the big logs, I split the log into quarters with a chainsaw. I then saw the corners off on the mill (LT40) to get a quartered cant. Then I flip back and forth to maximize the yield of figured boards. On smaller logs, ones that I can take slabs off on the mill, I make as big a cant as I can, even if it is really waney, then quarter it through the pith in both directions.

A big sycamore being quartered:



Quarter sawn sycamore:

[Wrangler55]

I was re-reading this message thread this morning while I was drinking my coffee and realized the way I used to cut quartersawn boards with a jig is a thing of the past! I was using a Timberking B-20 with hydraulics and now I have a 1220 with 100% hand labor.  I won't be loading and unloading quarters of a log any more and I don't have a skidsteer to move big log sections.  I've got several big oaks and sycamores to quartersaw, so I'm going to have to work out a new technique.  I've got a red oak log about 40" at the butt and 30' long, down and it's going to make the floors in my old farm house look fantastic about a year from now.

Hal

[Bibbyman]

I've developed my way of quarter sawing.  Arky does it about the same. 

 



Here is a big and ugly white oak butt cut ready to quarer saw.

 



I don't see any need in dealing with all that ugly bark and junk on the outside so I make it into a tapered octigon.

 



I then cut off the top third and scoot it off onto the loading arms.  I cut a few full widht boards out of the middle until I start to loose the quarter sawn grain.  Then I turn the bottom third up and take a few boards out of the middle of it.  Then I saw up the the two corners that are left.  The octigon flat comes in handy at this point.   I repeat for the top third I slid off from the first cut.

I got more pics somewhere.

[flibob]

It all sounds complicated to us newbies.  I think I am going to scrounge 6-8 foot tops from a neighbor and try these different methods to see how it goes.  The tops won't make much but the price is right(free) and they are easy to handle.

[SwampDonkey]

During WWII, the pilots practicing with dropping "the bomb" said they couldn't hit the right target. The captain says, "We never tried it before. They say, practice makes perfect. We'll practice it until we get it right".

[Just Me]

 The octagon that Bibbyman discribes is what I had imagined as a way to reference the rest of the work.  Then I was  kind of stuck on how one could saw the rest but the 45 degree wedge someone mentioned rang a bell. I was thinking some sacrificial 45 degree Vee's that you could just saw through that were clamped to the bed. Could be any junk wood really, say old OSB or other plywood. Just thinking. Anyway I don't know how stable the wood sawn has to be as far as clamps but I was also wondering with the plywood holding the 1/4's why you could then not cut two at a time with double 45 degree knotches on one sacrificial piece. The pieces could be made in two minutes, two at a time, with a tablesaw and chop box.Just thinking out loud.

It does seem a bit more difficult with a band mill, but as you all have shown, do'able. I love to see peoples different solutions to the same problem, makes the mind churn.

Thanks again, Larry

[Bibbyman]

By making the log into an octagon first, you end up with flat services on the four odd corners that you can clamp properly to get more quarter sawn boards from them.

[WDH]

I wanted to add some thoughts on this thread.  I had a white oak that was in serious decline, so I harvested it before the bugs got to it.  The bucked logs ranged from 15" to 17" on the small end, so these were not large by any means when it comes to quartersawing.

 



I slabbed the log to give the octagon shape, and sliced about 3 or four wide quartersawn boards right from the middle of the log. 

 







You can see the top third of the cant laying off to the side of the mill on the right.   I left the pith in the wide boards (12" - 15" wide) because I have found that leaving the pith in helps the board dry straight.  It can be sliced out when the board is planed down from the rough for use.  The resulting quartersawn boards from the top and bottom third were very nice, but only 5 1/2" to 6" wide. 

 



I found that trying to cut perfect quartersawn boards from the the top and bottom wedges from the top and botton third of the cant was marginal.  The boards are really too narrow to be of much appeal as most woodworkers do not want to buy boards that are only 3 1/2" wide, even if quartersawn.  So, I found that the best approach was to skip the octagoning step and make a four sided cant.  Then saw out the wide quartersawn boards from the middle.  Then flip up the top and bottom thirds and saw down through.  You only get one flatsawn board from the top and bottom of each third and the rest of the boards are riftsawn or quartersawn.  That is very good in white oak as woodworkers like rift sawn grain to make legs for furniture.  This pic shows some of the more rift sawn 8/4 that is still a very valuable cut. 

 



One bigger logs, it makes sense to go the octagon route and produce the maximum amount of quartersawn as you have the width in the cant to get boards that are at least 5" wide from the wedges.  Otherwise, I find that the modified quartersawing method is more practical and still yields over 80% rift and quartersawn grain.  What I call rift grain in the above picture actually technically qualifies as quartersawn, but the ray fleck is not as pronounced unless the growth rings are perfectly perpendicular to the long face of the board.  You get more of a "speckled" effect than long ribbons of ray fleck.  However, I like that "speckled" ray fleck look too.  I got some real nice boards from these logs.

[customsawyer]

Well on our next pecan job you can run the mill and show me.

[SwampDonkey]

Look at that octagon post he ruined. 

Some of them wood workers are a fussy bunch. All they need is to be faced with a crisis, like no more wide boards available. Then they will come around. Trouble is, that won't work down there for some time to come because you grow'm a lot bigger than they do up here. 

Nice saw job on them quarters. 

[ljmathias]

Nice tutorial, WDH- made me rethink how I saw nice logs like those.  Don't get many that smooth and straight, but next time... 

Lj

[WDH]

Well on our next pecan job you can run the mill and show me.

I will just supervise .  That white oak that you cut last year for us still takes the cake.  And then some.

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

I have  been 1/4 sawing some white oak for a customer for the last few days. It has turned out to be very pretty wood. I am learning about  this method of sawing and was wondering about "boxing the heart". What is the best use of this part of the tree. Is it a structurally useful piece of wood at or just waste. I'm wondering about some of the lager ones as posts. Thanks for any advice, Brian 

[beenthere]

brian

Isn't it difficult to 1/4 saw a log and not be sawing through the heart (pith center), such that there is no heart (pith) to box?

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

you are right I am cutting the heart up, had to look at what I was doing when I got home to wrap my head around it. This is new to me and I jumped the gun overthinking it this morning. Moving forward, is the heart deadwood that should be trimmed away or can it be a part of the boards I cut? I may be making this harder than it needs to be but you don't know what you don't know.Thanks for the patients, Brian

[beenthere]

Not a problem Brian.
The heart center is usually much lower quality, but sometimes that is just really the character that someone wants in their board, furniture, frame, or panelling. So no clear cut answer whether to trim away or not.
Keep thinking and doing. Those answers will start becoming your experience and add to your knowledge. Keep firing questions back as well as answers.

[Brad_S.]

Quarter sawing and through and through sawing requires you to saw through the heart, grade sawing allows you to box the heart.
Generally speaking, the area around the heart (2" or so on either side) will crack and/or severly check on hardwood boards. (Softwoods and species in the walnut family are an exception.) For that reason, you usually don't want to include it in your finished lumber. Boards from near the hear will often kink along that line as well. Additionally, lumber near the heart will have small knots from back when the tree was a sapling.
When I quarter saw, I edge away any lumber that contains heart. It is a matter of do it now or do it later.

[Norm]

That's a good point Brad, I've been lazy in the past and didn't do that. Really affects the quality of the board drying.

[SwampDonkey]

That's what I would do to. Most custom sawing I had done on hardwood they never really sawed for grade and the heart was not boxed so the lumber with the heart and pith was warped and cupped so that you could only use it for frame material and if thick enough tool handle wood after cutting out the heart and juvenile wood around it. A lot of these local guys don't even know much about grade sawing hardwood and saw out lumber with the least effort for the footage. It's hard not to really, because the wood is not big.

[WDH]

Some perfectly quartersawn boards from the center of the tree at the widest point in the log will dry with a pronounced side bend if you slice out the middle pith area and make two boards.  I leave the pith in as that balances both sides of the the good wood on either side while drying.  Sure, it splits and cracks in the middle, but the wood on either side is the best in the whole log.  I agree it is prettier too to remove the pith on those center cut boards, making them more appealing.  If they dry straight, that is great.  If they dry like an elongated "C", then that makes them very unappealing and harder to sell.  When I sell a wide quartersawn board with the pith still in the middle of the board, I measure the good wood width on either side, add them together, and charge the customer for that width.  That leaves the pith section as just a drying aid and a carrier for the two good halves of the board.  Of course if you are not cutting the wood to sell and are using it for yourself, then it doesn't matter much. 

If you have a nice straight, flat board with knots and a clear board with a little bow, cup, or warp, some people will choose the flat, straight board because it looks better.  To an experienced woodworker, they see the project in the boards and it is not as big an issue.  As I cut a lot of wood to sell, the boards need to look good  . 

[Just Me]

When we sawed up my ash trees a bit ago we sawed around the heart and used that for skids to set stacks on. It was no good for my purposes.