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Author Topic: Ridge beam and Design?  (Read 4552 times)

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Offline Thehardway

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 10:13:37 am »
Addicted,

Placing too many intersecting joints at one location removes too much wood from the members and weakens the overall strength of the joint. We use the term relish. Spreading the joints out some distance apart is preferable as it leave more relish. A tongue and fork joint was the preferable joint used for the apex of principle rafters rather than a mitered connection.  It gave a substantial amount of wood for each rafter to bear on so that shearing action was prevented and provided for plenty of relish.

Here I am am paring the tongue and cleaning the fork to prepare rafters for assembly.



Here is the test fit. It will later be bored pegged when finally assembled.



A collar beam will be fitted fitted to additionally support the rafters.



Finished pairs



Thrust at the eave was controlled with an anchor beams or continuous tie beam. Collar ties, purlin plates, and canted or raked struts occasionally referred to as "prick posts" were used as well to support principle rafters at intermediate points dependent on spans and loads.  Most buildings were designed with posts at regular intervals.  Long spans were not as important as was economy, ease of assembly and structural soundness.

Here is an example of a traditional frame design By the New England Barn Company http://www.newenglandbarn.com/dutch-anchorbeam-barn.php using rafters and purlin plates and posts.  Notice that the joints are all staggered and No two joints fall in the same location on a single member.



Here is a picture of a barn using purlin post and plate construction. notice that the common rafters are actually spliced at the plate.  This was common when rafters were not available that were long enough. You may also notice a mid-span scarf joint in the plate.  This was done to avoid excess joinery over the post which would cause weakness. I would rather see a continuous plate without the joint but never-the-less this is an example of a building which is over 200 years old and still sound.



Most long spans were found in storehouses or in churches and cathedrals. When the span moved past the point where a tie beam was practical, a truss was used.  The Kingpost and Queenpost truss were most prevalent with Kingpost being the simplest and Queenpost the most efficient.
Here is an example of the joinery for the apex of a kingpost to rafter intersection. Notice the tenons are designed to prevent the kingpost from traveling downward by means of a wedging and ratchet effect.  The kingpost does not support with upwardly, rather it pulls the rafters together with its weight and by supporting the tie beam below it. Plenty of relish is needed in the kingpost top.



Most kingpost trusses that failed, failed because of additional joinery at this point.  It removed too much wood.  In reality there is no need for a ridge beam here. Common rafters can be birds mouthed and pegged into purlins and plates.

Desire for longer spans and lack of longer timbers led to the development of the Hammer beam truss but this required shortened posts at the walls or some form of abutment to control the huge amounts of outward thrust they generate.

Later on the Post and Beam construction style popularized tall posts supporting longitudinal beams. Most of it omitted Mortise and Tenon joinery and used steel gusset plates and brackets which were thru bolted or they used concealed steel fasteners to make the joint strong without removing so much wood. These two distinctly different types of construction have now merged and the terms are almost used interchangeably.  This has been promulgated by the use of Internet search engines to the point where just about every timberframing company uses the term post and beam interchangeably with timber frame and vice versa.  It has led to some unorthodox structural arrangements which require a lot of unnecessary engineering and confusion as to what supports what and how it is connected together.  I predict it will cause problems in the future when people try to add, modify or maintain a structure as this is when it becomes important to understand what supports what, what is load bearing and what is not etc.

One rule of timberframing is to try and use the simplest joint possible to do the job well.  If you can avoid complex intersections you will serve yourself well not only in longevity and structural soundness but in effort, assembly and less waste.

That said, with enough money, effort, and time, anything you want to see can be accomplished.

What you are doing with a supported ridge beam can be done and is not wrong, it just makes life more difficult than it need be and I would avoid it unless you have a particular reason for doing it, which you may have that I am not aware of.

Hope this helps more than it confuses.  Keep asking questions.  We all learn together, here amongst friends.

Hud-Son Oscar 18"

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2011, 02:52:34 pm »
Thehardway
 Thanks for shedding some light on this design. My goal was to make a frame that used the least amount of wood for the most space, all the while shooting for a cross between a high post cape and a colonial.  I was trying to stay away from collar ties because I thought they would be in tension, then I went to collar tie with queen posts then came the ridge beam idea which I thought would solve all the problems but it seems to have sprung up several more.
 Any way I slice it, I can't find a way to have a usable second floor without having more than two joints in one area. If I can upload the pic from sketchup I will, but I have to figure out how to shrink the file first.
Thanks again
Rusty

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2011, 04:53:49 pm »
but I have to figure out how to shrink the file first.


java uploader does that automatically for you....
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2011, 06:21:34 pm »
The last time I was able to access the page to upload a picture it said file length too big. Now when I click the upload link I get an Internet Explorer error, which closes everything.
Is there something I should be doing differently?
Rusty
 

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2011, 06:23:46 pm »
Not sure, there is a post here some where that tells all the ways to upload pictures. I don't know where it is for sure, but someone usually post a link to it for us.

Or you can do a search for the instructions.

Every time I use the java uploader it works great for me.....

Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2011, 06:41:06 pm »
Thanks Jim
It looks like jpegs load just fine but the png file from sketchup won't. I'll keep trying

Rusty

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 09:09:11 am »
Maybe you should convert the png to a jpeg first.....

Or can you save as a jpeg from sketchup?

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 09:42:34 am »
How would one convert a png to jpeg? And or how does one save a sketch up file as a jpeg?
Thanks

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2011, 01:18:53 pm »
How would one convert a png to jpeg? And or how does one save a sketch up file as a jpeg?
Thanks


When you export, a 2d graphic, use the pull down blue arrow on the right end of the box that says: Export type: and select jpeg.......

hope that helps....
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2011, 04:03:15 pm »
 



That looks like it did the trick Jim Thanks

This is version one.  I put different sized and spaced rafters on either side to see what the wife thinks. I've also decided to delete the joist that joins the center post and either put a smaller one on either side or space the whole group accordingly. Probably the later. I'm sorry there is no joinery detail but I've just started using sketchup about a week or two and have quite a ways to go.
If anyone sees problems or future headaches please feel free to speak up. Don't worry about being gentle , I've got thick skin. 
Rusty

Offline Thehardway

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 08:28:40 am »
What are your estimated dimensions?
Hud-Son Oscar 18"

Offline meddins

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 09:22:35 pm »
Rusty, in your sketchup model there doesn't appear to be a collar tie or tie beam. As I see it, the weight of half your roof is being transferred directly to the wall plate/post connection. All of that horizontal thrust is being transferred to some 1.5" or 2" tenons at the top of the posts?

I think you would be better off incorporating tried and true historical precedents into your frame design.

On page 29 of Richard Harris' Discovering Timber-Framed Buildings there is an example of an historical frame that achieves what your trying to do. I would highly recommend that book along with Cecil Hewettt's English Historic Carpentry. Of course you can't go wrong with Jack Sobon's and Steve Chappell's books either...I'd say don't try to re-invent the wheel but see if you can make your design work within an existing, tried and true model that is the product of centuries of trial and error...

Free advice...for what it's worth.. :)

p.s. I like your general frame concept and dimensions...not too different from a frame design I'm working on at the moment..


Offline witterbound

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 09:57:44 am »
How tall are you second floor knee walls?  It looks to me like they're not that much shorter than your first floor walls.  If you make them 8' you could put a tie between them, and put a king post on top to support the ridge which would be overhead and out of the way, and reduce the pitch of the roof, and have any entirely open second floor.  I guess if you've got a 1000 sq ft footprint, and you add 3' to a wall, you're adding 3000 cubic feet to heat and cool.  If your house is two stories, you're adding  23 % to heat and cool (if we assume you originally had an 8' first floor + 5' second floor) = 13,000 cubic feet and 3,000/13,000 =   23%.  But you're also getting more usable space, so you could theoretcially reduce the footprint.

Offline addicted

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Re: Ridge beam and Design?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 11:32:50 am »
TheHardway
 The dimensions are..... Footprint 30' x 53'
 Posts  10"x10"x15' outer      10"x10"x27' inner
 Tiebeams 10"x14"
Raftersill 10"x14"
Supported ridge beam 10"x14"
Rafters 6"x10"
bents on either end  are roughly 14' and the center two bents are roughly 12'


Meddins
Thanks for the book suggestions. I will be searching for Harris'  book soon and I already have most of Sobon's and Chappell's books. I'm really not trying to reinvent the wheel, since my experience is very limited. In one of the TF courses I took, the idea of a supported ridge beam was mentioned as a way to eliminate outward thrust.  I then saw a frame raised locally by a big TF company that used the same idea. That is what started my questions of this design and if it works. Although the the frame I saw raised locally used splines on all the post/beam joinery and resulted in a lot of short beams. I read in the Timber Frame Joinery and Design book about the pros and cons of using these splines but haven't seen anything talking about the use of a supported ridge beam. Though Ted Benson does have a design in the back of that book that has what appears to be a supported ridge beam, it also looks as if there are mechanical fastening plates. Not sure.
Does the picture you're talking about in Harris' book look anything like the one on pg14 of Chappells' book? That may be a better idea. I was trying to avoid using purlins because I heard they were a pain to raise but a scarfed 53' ridge beam is starting to sound a lot worse.

Left Coast Chris
Thanks for the advice. knowing that the pitch could reduce the snow load would make a big difference. I will have an engineer look at the plan but I would like to have most of the obvious problems worked out before hand to reduce the number of major revisions.

Witterbound
Good eye. Your guess is exactly correct. the main floor has 8' to the bottom of the beam and a 5' knee wall on the second floor. I was trying to use the least amount of timbers for this design but you may be right that a higher wall and lower pitch with a tie beam might be much easier. 

 


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