Milling my own wood hoping to find buyer of 2-3 million bf of Red Alder per year

[evileye]

From Aberdeen WA not far from you.
Spent most of my adult life in the timber Industry.
Red Alder commands a better price than second growth fir.
as it is used in furniture and made look like another species
I would solicit bid on deliver logs FOB. Letter of credit.
Why letter of credit.
after you have delivered some will try and screw you with a rescale .
There are more Berny madoff in the timber than you will ever belive.
I know I owned a logging Company and saw mill and had a Japanese co
Drill me for $600,000.00 on one shipment.
Container were loaded on APL ship and they refused to unload.
Told me to sue.
International suet can take 11 years.
Be careful

[LOGDOG]

RedAlderDude,

First off, congratulations on making a great score on your Hawaii property and buying this piece of property.

Couple of things .... You said:

"A big Mill near my home (I live in Port Townsend Washington) quoted me $65 per 1000 bf for just the logs, if the logs are at least 16 feet long and the narrow end is at least 8 inches."

Was that $65.00 per 1000 bd ft a typo on your part? If not, you do know that's 6.5 cents per board foot right? There's a good distance between 6.5 cents per bd ft and $1.00 per bd foot. It makes me wonder if they haven't valued it appropriately when there's such a spread. At 6.5 cents per foot they could cut that small diameter stuff up (down to 8 inches in diameter like you mentioned) and turn it into pallet or crating stock and come out. I've never milled Alder but I have milled tons and tons of hardwood in the midwest. Normally on that small stuff you can pretty much count on at LEAST a 4x4 worth ( or more ) of low, low grade wood in the center of the log around the pyth. A lot of guys make 4X4's or 4x6's out of the center and sell them that way. I guess my point is, you have to understand that in every log there's typically a progression downward in grade as you move from the outside towards the center of the log. It's just the way it is - unfortunately.

What kind of ground are you on? Is it steep? Or is it rolling? Flat? High and Dry? Low and Wet? The reason I ask is because that will influence the method that are likely best used to harvest the timber. You said that it would take you "6 years to thin the property". It wouldn't have to if you can get a processor / feller buncher in there and a skidder. You could lay it down fast with just a couple men running those machines.

Personally, I'd haul all those logs out of there to a sorting yard of some kind. Not all of them will be worth sawing. So sort the ones that are and the ones that aren't sell off in log form to cash flow the operation. Plus, if they pay you by the ton for pulp wood you'll get paid for what would have ended up in a slab/burn pile on your 600 acres. Plus, if you end up milling these logs at a yard back in civilization, you can likely contract the sawing to a larger mill that can really crank out production in all kinds of weather.

The Loggers "helping" the contract sawyers? Not gonna happen. Not consistently anyway. I've been in on an arrangement like that. The "extras" were no help when it came to milling.

You asked: Do most loggers make $10,000 a month or should i really expect to have to pay more?
Expect to pay more - a lot more for the kind of production you need. One of my clients is in the heavy equipment business. He takes in between $350,000.00 and $500,000.00/ month.  Skip buying equipment and hire an operator with the kind of equipment capable of putting the smackdown on that wood when you're ready - like the processor and skidder. You don't want to buy these. You could spend $300K- $600K on two good machines. If things don't work out then you have to get rid of the machines. (Yes guys I realize he could buy cheaper machines with high hours etc,etc ....)

As far as getting the wood to market, can't you rent a deck barge or a spud barge that you can take up to the site and just do short ferry trips with the landing craft to the barge where it's staged and heap it full of wood. Have a loader set up on the barge to offload the truck your using to forward the wood. Then once the barge is full push the whole thing home with a tug. Down here in Louisiana you can rent a BIG tugboat with crew for $3000.00 a day and they run around the clock.

Right now, I'd be 100% focused on finding the market for the wood. When you nail that, then you can do your cost analysis and see whether this thing is going to be profitable.

You know .... I wonder if you could sell carbon credits on your timber and let it stand and still get paid? Hmmmmmm......

Just my 2 cents.....

Can you post a google map of your property? I've done a good bit of looking around up there and would be curious to see where your place is at.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Well now I know where your at, Porcher Island. That's one heck of a long ways north of Vancouver Island or Washington State.  As I recall there are quite a few abandoned camps and houses there at Hunt's Inlet, Humpback Bay and a reserve at Oona River. Your closer to Prince Rupert and the Queen Charlotte Islands than anywhere. That's the Island near the mouth of the Skeena River. Been there, done that. Must be old Timberwest ground. I think this will be a very remote and costly operation with a lot of money tied up.



Blockade in Oona River B.C. comes to an end Dec 3, 2010

The climate is very wet and humid with rain almost every day most of the year and terrain can be flat swamp to steep mountain sides.

[LOGDOG]

You're not kiddin that's a heck of a long ways north of Vancouver Island and Washington State. That's not far from Ketchikan and Prince of Wales Island where the Papac crew on Axe Men is from.

I bet that's some beautiful country up there. I think I'd be bear hunting and fishing vs. logging on that piece of ground. 

[SwampDonkey]

I've worked up there around them Islands and parts unknown to most. I bet the Axeman gang weren't logging alders. The last crew already cut the cream.

Hunting mountain goats to, if I recall.

[D Hagens]

 Wow! Porcher Isl is a bit of a boat ride from Van Isl. Definitely need more then a paddle and a tin boat for that trip.
 Here I assumed you were going to grab a saw and do what a few have tried over the years. Some people have done the I will cut first, wait till I get caught and apply for the permits later.
 I kind of got my back up a bit there as I've seen logging companies come out of no where and show up on the Gulf Islands wanting to do the same thing.
 I should have clues in when you mentioned Alder!
 Just out of curiosity do you run in to any land sensitivity issues with the Natives?

[SwampDonkey]

He's probably going to have quite an adventure. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Found you on the map.    Bring fishing gear for when waiting for parts. 

[redbeard]

Welcome red alder dude,If your in Pt. Townsend, Your a stone throw away from my mill set-up, I'am small timer but have milled a fair share of alder,I average about 1.25-1.50 BF selling air dried alder. Your tree sizes are scrub alder sizes not worth much, 16" is a average saw log 22"- 28" are the good ones. Your quote from mill is probably 650.00 scaled logs per thousand BF. More than likely they will want larger diameter trees.The area in BC where your alder is, Is a very remote area.  Alder is a Bandsaw mills best friend it cuts easier than butter 1200-1600 BF in 8 hr day no problem with a medium duty Hydraulic mill. First money you spend on this venture you should hire a forester and go from there.  

[LOGDOG]

Just out of curiosity do you run in to any land sensitivity issues with the Natives?

If he hasn't yet, it sounds like there's definitely the potential for it when you read the article that SwampDonkey posted. Seems the Natives are restless. RedAlderDude.... a word of advice, if you're up there cutting trees and you shut your saw off and hear "drums" -RUN!!!! (My wife and I have some Native American in us just in case this seems politically incorrect.)

By the way ... I forgot, welcome to the Forum RedAlderDude.

[D Hagens]

 My wife is Native and I asked her about this and she said DUDE your lucky because you're married to a Native so you can fish for free, chop down wood, get tax breaks and your smokes and cheap booze.
 And I said yeah baby and that's why I married you. But what about this guy, what are your thoughts? Her answer was pretty much that with all the treaties, land claims and crap right down to Native burial grounds that this guy is going to have a tough one ahead of him.

[tyb525]

It might be a different story if you were logging in a flat hardwood forest in the midwest, with a variety of of hardwoods both large and small.

I do think this could be done, but you should talk to a forester and do some more research on equipment and methods to be as efficient as possible.

[DR_Buck]

I had to go back to the beginning an re-read this thread.   I thought for sure somewhere it started with "Once upon a time....."   

[Brucer]

Research, my friend, research. From Wikipedia ...

 "The island’s relative isolation, combined with wet, cool summers and severe winters, has discouraged many of those who sought to make Porcher Island their permanent home."

From experience, I would say you're better off to set up a semi-permanent milling site that you can roof over. A log forwarder may be a better way to shift logs than a skidder.

Used equipment will be a problem because of breakdown & part issues.

An LT-70 / 60+ HP mill or equivalent, along with an edger ought to keep 2 helpers jumping.

You will need power and shelter for the workers and the mill (s).

Build a plan around one sawmill. Calculate the percentage of wood you can get from a log. The rest will be slabs/waste that you have to deal with. Do BC's environment laws allow you to burn it? The don't around these parts. Figure out how many boards you'll produce and how many stickers you'll need in a month. Figure out how you're going to handle them. Find out how much fuel an LT-70 burns in a day (guys on this forum will know) and figure out how much fuel you'll need per month. Do this for everything -- blades, maintenance supplies, spare parts, etc.

Check on the logging rules in BC. Just because it's your land and your wood doesn't mean you can ignore the paperwork. Talk to the BC Forestry people. I've always tried to work with them and I've never regretted it. Friends try to fight them and never come out ahead.

Consider setting up a power plant.

Try harvesting some logs and ship them off to a custom milling site that uses the same sort of mill you might buy. Find out what they can produce and what the issues are. Be sure you check with Forestry before you move the logs off your property.

[backwoods sawyer]

Welcome to the forum,
First off the numbers may sell the bean counters, but they will not add up quite the way you have them calculated. Since the land has been logged once the permit process may go thru but the cost of getting those permits have not been looked at yet. Rather then investing in several sawmills and planning on milling every stick, which is non productive in small alder. Sort for log size and quality and chip everything that dose not make the grade.  

There is a mill just north of you that has an off loading point for barges and is with in reasonable barge distance that is sitting idle that could handle your annual volume with a 90-day run, and has a good sized kiln, there are several barge co’s in the area. A couple are Boyer Alaska Barge Lines, Northland Services Inc. and Illerts barge and sawmill service. (My wife is a native as well).

You are on the right track in that you want to mill the alder as soon as possible as it needs to be milled with in a relatively short time frame from when it is felled to keep the wood bright and not develop spalting.

By the way, if you would like to make a test run, I am for hire and my mill travels well, besides I am about ready for a vacation.

Nothing like taking on a good challenge to keep you young.

[ljmathias]

Our Red Alder man has switched threads on us and asking for help elsewhere- hope he's not one of those that, if he doesn't hear the advice he wants, he goes somewhere else till he does...   Lot's of learning left along that path, most of it real expensive.

Lj

[SwampDonkey]

His big adventure is going to be a good education if nothing else.

[RedAlderDude]

I'm still here and feeling lucky that I found this forum.   You guys really are answering a lot of my questions and it's good to hear it from people with real experience.  Thanks again.

To start the 65 bucks per thousand better have been a mistake on my part.  How could anyone make a dime at that price.  I need to call that guy again.  But i was encouraged by the price Red Beard was getting for kiln dried Alder being paid, 1.25 to 1.50 a bf.  I guess these trees being so small, I won't be able to get much money for them.  Seems like a waste not being able to sell all these small logs considering that they will thin themselves out if i don't do it.   And yes anyone that wants to go into biz with me, I'd love to talk more.  I do have the resources to build a camp and a stationary mill.  My gut tells me that the sh__ is about to hit the fan in America and a piece of property like this might be as good as it gets for staying fed.  So if you want to build a cabin on my property and earn some dough, lets talk.

When I original found this chunk of land i bought it without a thought of logging.  It was to be my survival compound and perhaps a kayak biz.  I'm the only private owner of land in Porcher Inlet which is a ten mile long bay with a few mile long lagoon above it. Crazy rapids coming out and into that lagoon.   The entrance to the bay is also scary.  I arrived at slack water at the narrows in my 54 footer and was doing 5 knots as i entered the bottle neck and 12 knots a hundred yards later.  The fellow that sold me the property said the tide can run at 18 knots during max flood or ebb, but they did bring big barges in to the bay to log the property.

The property has roads and a rock quarry already on it.  Porcher Creek runs through the middle of it.  It's a salmon stream so i know there will be issues but the good news is that the big push by First Nation (i believe it is called) to create the Great bear rain fores, which i totally supported, drew lines all through BC delineating areas that can and cannot be logged in the future.  The line on Porcher runs almost right along my property line.  I guess since it was already logged it was not included in the reserve.

Maybe the best way to skin this cat is to go up there next summer with one mill and build a warehouse and living quarters with red alder.  The next year put in the kiln and the saw mill.

Starting small is probably the best advice.  But I'm still not sold that there isn't away to make some money at a 100 bf a tree.  Maybe what i need to do is go to China and find a partner that likes to hunt and fish.  The story about the $600,000 screw job by some Japanese company was very enlightening.  Like any other biz, I understand that ALL ducks need to be in a row before any real money gets risked.  It would be great to make a million a year off the get go, but the long range plan is to create a biz that will allow my family survive in the future in which I believe Americans will become as broke as the Chinese were before this funny money expansion.  In the future if i can log 30 acres a year of 20-25 inch trees that produce $1.25 to $1.50 a bf, it is enough money to feed many a family.  This might sound like a pipe dream to a lot of you guys on this forum but you need to understand the value of this wood if hyper inflation sets in, which is a definite possibility.  Anything that is real has value.  If you work at a desk or answer a phone for a living, expect to earn the same as a chinaman makes in the future in relative terms.  In my humble opinion, the only folks that will survive relatively unscathed in North Americas' future will be fishermen, farmers, loggers and miners etc.

I have a forester that has already offered to check out the property for me this spring so I will indeed take him up on that offer.  Thanks Red Beard for the insight into how may bf you can cut with a hydraulic ban saw.  Is that 1200 to 1600 bf in 8 hours possible with one man or do you need two?  Do you have any recomendations on the best hydraulic mill to buy and what kind of money i will need to spend?

LogDog thanks for your insight too.  I understand where you're coming from, but the guy that owned the property before me did the same kind of deal and that's what forced him to sell me the land for pennies.  He logged 600 acres of old growth in 2 years ...total clear cut with barges, tugs, and all.  He also spent a good deal building roads on the property.  My thinking is not to repeat his mistake and pay big time operators.  I prefer to work with guys that aren't high rollers, more profit that way.  I think they're are a ton of guys out there that would be happy to enter into a deal with me that have a strong chance to earn themselves a hundred grand a year for many years to come and only have to work 6 or 7 months.  I'm the kind of guy that always competed in the fish biz with a boat that i built myself for  a third to a quarter of the cost of the hot shots with the million dollar boats and usually made more than most of them with a green crew too.  It's all about the bottom line to me.

[NB sawdust]

Sure would be an adventure ..... I bet those reality tv guys would eat it up !! Reminds me of the show gold rush . Would be an experience !!!!

[SwampDonkey]

I seriously doubt you'll find the bliss your seeking on Porcher Island. But, maybe you can achieve a short term profit, albeit on the low side, and by the time you've thinned through your forest there you'll have had about enough. You'll probably like Hawaii and Washington a whole lot better when everything gets shaken out. Seems we get a lot of US and Europeans over the years that buy cheap land, come here for a short stint, and return home with something a university could never teach. Some do make it though. We have a place called Corn Hill Nursery here in NB that began with the same ideas. Their plans changed quite a lot after being here awhile, but turned it into a successful plant nursery business. They found they could not survive being isolationists though or running away from the world problems, so that is when they build a nursery. We have another guy from Washington, who is a Forester, came here 30 years ago and he set up a Gris Mill for flour and grains and has made a go of it. He has now retired and sold the business to locals. Seems we get a lot of folks reaming and gleaming for cheap land. Heck, there is all kinds of it in the Maritimes. It ain't easy though, many times these people get government help. But they also have a good education and seem to have lots of money of their own.