Author Topic: Northwoods ? (Read 5071 times)

Autocar · « **on:** January 16, 2011, 04:26:39 pm »

I haven't seen any post from him for a while, I said something to fishpharmer and he also was wondering about him. I knew he said something about a big job he was working . I guess even though you never met alot of the guys on this forum you feel a connection to them and we all know the dangers of this job. Guess I am a worry wart

fishpharmer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2011, 05:09:22 pm »

His profile shows he logged on at 10:38 am today. Maybe he's just busy.

Autocar · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2011, 05:18:32 pm »

Well maybe I just jumped the gun

James your a country boy and a computer whiz

Have a good day

northwoods1 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2011, 07:08:11 am »

Hi Auto, no I'm still around , thanks for wondering about me that is real nice of you.

I do work alone, but I am so careful. About as careful as a fella can be. This cedar is not to dangerous though, the biggest thing probably is for me to remember to not jump on and off the cable skidder and throw my back out

I just about have a good start on this job and a good routine going now. Cutting cedar is slow going

, but I am really enjoying it.

So nice to be in the woods and not having to worry about getting a couple loads a day out and contracts that need to be filled.

Been a long time since I have decked wood with just the cable skidder, but it is working pretty good. I have some big tree length piles that I can pull to both sides of , so I can skid quite a bit out before I begin bucking. I have one pile that is all 8' saw logs , and another pile that I am cutting it as long as I can from 16' -24'. Been very happy so far with the way it is cutting out I'd say it is close to 90% sound and a lot of it will cut long material. And I haven't gotten into the good wood yet been just cleaning up around the edges and some of the larger blowdowns. I am taking everything, even the short, small diameter, and crooked it is all getting hauled to my farm where my mill is. I have to thank cedarman for giving me some good ideas as to how to go about bucking this stuff up. I am trying to leave it all as long as possible so I have more options when it comes time to saw. Haven't even started my buncher yet but will when I get in to some of the smaller brushier wood.

I just love cutting this stuff it is so light even a big tree you can move it by hand, and make nice piles for my trucker. 1st thing I do when I get there is get a good fire going and then start the 440. Happened to be a big dead elm right where I am parking. Or was it that I parked there because of the big dead elm there

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2011, 02:17:02 pm »

Some fellas have to work once in awhile, eh Northwoods?

Nice looking cedar ground. I like white cedar stands in winter.

What are you going to do with all the cedar, make cedar strip canoes?

Makes decent tung and grove wall panels. Got it in the house here and a cedar desk and corner cupboard.

Autocar · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2011, 03:26:20 pm »

Great pictures of your job. I don't have alot of exsperance cutting cedar or pine, I did cut some kind of pine or cedar tree north of Edmonton Alberta in the swan hills

It was just for a day but it was something different and in fact while I was cutting my saw called in a bull moose

I know what you mean about getting in and out of a skidder the last few weeks its been like a skateing rink even though its clean steel.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2011, 04:06:21 pm »

Musta been pine , spruce or fir, no cedar out there unless rocky mountain juniper near Banff park and Calgary.

Magicman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2011, 07:26:57 pm »

Nice to see your operation NW. Stay warm and safe.

plasticweld · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2011, 07:38:33 pm »

Quote from: northwoods1 on January 17, 2011, 07:08:11 am

I do work alone, but I am so careful. About as careful as a fella can be. This cedar is not to dangerous though, the biggest thing probably is for me to remember to not jump on and off the cable skidder and throw my back out

I do not remember ever worrying about getting on and off the skidder 20 years ago. being an old guy now I am also careful about jumping on and off, even go so far as to look for a stump to park next to when getting on and off, I'm gald I am not the only one who has to worry about this

lumberjack48 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2011, 08:22:45 pm »

I can smell the cedar and the smoke from the fire, people who haven't worked like this have no idea what its like to be a logger.
Back in the 60's & 70's i cut a lot of cedar, its fun to cut, piles up fast, you have to watch out for the dust, its hard on your eyes.

In the Chippewa National forest you can't purchase Cedar stumpage anymore. On less they have changed things in the last 16 yrs.

I used to have Tree Farmer knees , i was a bow-legged Finn

northwoods1 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2011, 07:02:55 am »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 17, 2011, 02:17:02 pm

Some fellas have to work once in awhile, eh Northwoods? Nice looking cedar ground. I like white cedar stands in winter.

What are you going to do with all the cedar, make cedar strip canoes? Makes decent tung and grove wall panels. Got it in the house here and a cedar desk and corner cupboard.

Actually I have a guy that is just chomping at the bit for some clear wood for canoes. That will be one of my 1st orders once I start sawing. I am really curious as to what percentage of clear I can get out of some of the bigger butt logs

If I can get even 10% I will pay for this whole job in a hurry. I have had a lot of people contact me for canoe wood.
Every piece of wood out there as I am sawing and bucking I can see a use for it. Even the hollow ones I am hauling out. I figure just knock the rot out, slap a slab on top and bottom, make a hole and hang them up down by the river for the wood ducks. All the really crooked unique looking stuff will most likely be some kind of "rustic" furniture.
Yesterday I did get a little boo-boo. I wasn't being careful enough and I was trying to push a stump from a blowdown over and out of the way, Had my head to the side of the cab looking at the corner of the blade and it slipped off and BANG goes me head into the side of the cab

Had my hard hat on but that went flying. More than one guy has gotten killed that way. Hitting head on side of cab when machine suddenly moves. A skidsteer in the woods was the machine you really had to watch out for that.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2011, 07:39:51 am »

You can never tell the percentages until it's cut out. Some sites have little rot and on others, the but log is pretty shot. I would expect a lot more than 10 % sound unless it's real old wood. Or do you mean old hidden knots inside? Now there is the $60,000 question. Won't know until she's sawn.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:27:25 am »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 19, 2011, 07:39:51 am

You can never tell the percentages until it's cut out. Some sites have little rot and on others, the but log is pretty shot. I would expect a lot more than 10 % sound unless it's real old wood. Or do you mean old hidden knots inside? Now there is the $60,000 question. Won't know until she's sawn.

As far as sound goes it is cutting out real well close to 90% sound, better than average cedar for around here. I am getting about 40' of saw logs out of a tree with a small stick or sometimes two for fence posts from the top. I am taking it down to a very small diameter.
What I was talking about for canoe wood is >clear< material. No knots. That is the highest dollar material. I think I am going to have to get $3.50bf for that. Good thing is it can be 3" wide or any multiple of that, and any length. If I can get 16' long clear that will be set aside and be even higher priced as that is long enough to make a canoe out of single pieces. I am hoping to get 10% clear at at least 8' long, and I am suspecting that will mostly be the jacket boards on the bigger clean and slick looking butt logs.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:33:21 am »

yeah, I would think the clear stuff would demand a premium. 16 foot clears in cedar, maybe, but rare unless it's the bigger upland white cedar we get in with hardwood with 30" or so sized buts. Cedar hangs onto them dead limbs a long time.

Autocar · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:49:29 am »

If anyone has a picture of one of those canoes under construction ? I use to build canoes years ago but mine was a maple fram with canvas over them. Always wanted a wood one but they were realiy high priced. Sounds like Northwoods has a idea for every stick he pulls out

Thats good seems like we waste alot thats left in the woods.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2011, 10:56:14 am »

They were white cedar ribbed here, not the strip type, and a canvas over that.

Jeff · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2011, 11:03:53 am »

Quote from: Autocar on January 19, 2011, 08:49:29 am

If anyone has a picture of one of those canoes under construction ?

Check member Woodbender's gallery

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/index.php?cat=15012

Autocar · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:47:34 pm »

Those are neat looking canoes, I use to make them with hard maple fram and canvas. It looks to me like thats a talent. I wonder how they hold all the boards in place till they glue it up.

Maine372 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2011, 06:49:57 pm »

not to interupt the canoe chat, but is that a 357 with a full wrap handle?

barbender · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:03:06 pm »

That's a nice patch of cedar, Northwoods. It looks like you have a lot less snow over there, it's up on my thighs here. My tire chainless skidder is even struggling in the stuff.

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:12:29 pm »

I've been wanting to build a wooden boat. Strangely, I have no desire to actually use one.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:13:07 pm »

Clark · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:17:48 pm »

That is remarkable quality for white cedar, straight and fairly free of rot, although I'm sure there are some you left behind/didn't show that could prove the opposite point!

Clark

Autocar · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:30:32 pm »

Northwoods looks like your keeping busy

Won't be long and that snow will be gone and when you stop for lunch your catch yourself walking in that feild looking for a artifact

Be safe

lumberjack48 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:31:04 pm »

Boy is that nice Cedar, looks like high land White Cedar.

Nice pictures, very nice, clean and straight landing site northwoods1

northwoods1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:31:56 pm »

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #26 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:43:08 pm »

What happened to all the snow out there?

Looks like a huge cedar lot, you can see it follow the field edge way on down there. Nice cedar to by the way.

donny hochstetler · « **Reply #27 on:** February 16, 2011, 10:54:29 pm »

nice job like the 440d I always thought you had a 540d from other pictures guess I didnt look close enough

northwoods1 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2011, 05:34:04 am »

The snow is disappearing fast here it was in the mid 50s' when I took those photos yesterday. Quite a change from last week, I had 3 days in a row where it was -23 in the morning. I think I am about ready to call it quits and just get my wood moved off this job the warm weather makes me nervous. The road bans are still a ways off but I don't want to take any chances with the mud. So far I have been able to keep the cedar very clean and I hope to keep it that way. I got about 1/2 of this job cut and am going to save the rest for next winter.
Autocar, this job is down in the farm country and I am surrounded by fields. It is a very good area for looking for artifacts

, I have my eye on one of the fields next door to this job it has some sandy hills that the snow is melted off , and it is right near a creek.
Clark, it is a good run of cedar I am really pleased with the way it has been cutting out. I didn't leave anything behind in the woods, everything got brought out right down to 2". Everything that needed to be butted I did so on the landing so I could even haul all that home. If anyone needs any cedar lumber don't be afraid to ask

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:39:41 am »

Those but cutoffs make great kindling, might even be some curl for a bowl.

Norm · « **Reply #30 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:11:37 am »

Nice JD440 you have. I didn't know you guys had so much white cedar there. I'd like to have a truck full but after reading Gary's exploits in Wisconsin I think I'll keep my semi in Iowa.

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:20:57 am »

Sweet combination of gear. Nice to see you on the land things have come to a dead stop here. Can almost smell that cedar.

snowstorm · « **Reply #32 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:39:39 am »

is it spring break up there already??

isawlogs · « **Reply #33 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:00:25 am »

Nice whack of cedar. How many truck loads do you think/know you have to haul out? How far you need to haul it?
Norm, sheesh whats life without some excitement .... send Patty ti get a load

Burlkraft · « **Reply #34 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:17:43 am »

Quote from: Norm on February 17, 2011, 07:11:37 am

Nice JD440 you have. I didn't know you guys had so much white cedar there. I'd like to have a truck full but after reading Gary's exploits in Wisconsin I think I'll keep my semi in Iowa.

Chicken

mad murdock · « **Reply #35 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:01:20 am »

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the warm weather pics. I bet weight limits will be thrown on any day if the weather doesn't turn colder soon. I hope you are able to get all your wood out before they shut the roads off. Nice looking job, nice equip. and some DanG nice cedar, if I do say so, myself!

barbender · « **Reply #36 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:52:36 am »

It's supposed to get cold again tonight- for how long I don't know. Our woods road is a mudfest, we had to shut the trucks down on this job. The forwarder even shut down for a couple of days. The road will be nasty when it freezes, all rutted up now

Nothwoods, that is a really nice looking job. Where are you cutting at?

Ron Scott · « **Reply #37 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:47:55 pm »

Nice Cedar job. Do you have good markets for it there?

northwoods1 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 18, 2011, 08:02:24 am »

Quote from: Ron Scott on February 17, 2011, 07:47:55 pm

Nice Cedar job. Do you have good markets for it there?

Well, I have my own sawmill so the plan is that I will be sawing all this up and marketing it in that form. I'll probably be turning a fair amount of the finished lumber into some kind of product to stretch the value that way. I have yet to sell a single piece of wood off this job and after 7 weeks of work with no pay, having payed the landowner lump sum in advance, paying for fuel, paying for trucking etc. etc , I am getting a little nervous

Its all good though but sometimes I wonder if just having a normal job wouldn't be much easier!
I did have one fellow approach me last week and he wants to buy as many posts as I can provide. My plan at the moment is to get all the logs moved out as soon as it gets cold enough to do so which should be within the next week, and then finish out the year cutting posts as long as the weather and conditions permit.
Barbender I am cutting in Northern Oconto county. Having a rutted up woods road freeze solid can be a real pain. I always make it a point to get out there right at the time you can still work with it and level it out the best you can. I have a drag that I pull behind the skidder. That is what I will be doing right away this morning. Lots of time when I drive out of the job I will get it smoothed out and leave the skidder out at the end of the road.
Isawlogs, I don't have far to go with this wood only about 15 miles to my farm. I haven't estimated the volume yet, it is kind of difficult and I haven't really needed to. I just want it to work out so that there is full truckloads of both long material and 8 ft. , either I will have to buck up some of the lesser quality long material or pull out a little more wood out to do that. Then I will only be cutting post material and I would really like to get 2 big truckloads of that would make me very happy.

barbender · « **Reply #39 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:24:30 pm »

I had to look at a map- I had heard of Oconto county but I didn't know where it was. I've only been through that area once. I went out to the woods at 4:00 pm, the road was so soupy when I looked in the mirror my tracks were filled in with mud, left the woods at 3:00 am and everything was frozen solid and GNARLY! I wish we had something to straighen the road up with, the guy I am working for is a contract cutter and we just have the processor on the job. I know from driving truck that it is going to be miserable going, the landing is about 2 miles in, I bet it will take them 1/2 hour to 45 minutes one way to get in there now.

treefarmer87 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:54:59 pm »

nice clean job northwoods, i like that hydro ax, how does it work for you? i have been wanting a 221 or 321 like that.

isawlogs · « **Reply #41 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:59:12 pm »

I ment to ask about that axe on the front of da peeck-up but did not get around to it .. so

Whats wit da axe on da front dere

Ya forget your keys to da gate and its a delocker

northwoods1 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 08, 2011, 12:41:15 pm »

Well I guess I can say "mission accomplished" for my little cedar logging job, got the last load hauled out yesterday morning, a load of fence posts shown in the last pic. For a few minutes I was wondering if he was gonna get it all on but he did, just had to heap it a bit

I got 1/2 of the job cut and will be doing the rest next winter which should be nice because what is left is the better half of the job. I figure there is about 35-40,000 feet of logs all piled neatly up at my farm with about 2/3 of that being long stuff I cut at 25'.

So, now it is on to "phase II" , get to work and saw some cedar.

Marcel that axe came with the bumper along with one of those high lift jacks that fits right on there over the axe. I've never chopped a darn thing with that axe I guess it is just for looks

, now on the other hand that high lift jack comes in really handy.

Treefarmer that little feller buncher works real well for me. I like it because I can go into any kind of a job either pulpwood, logs, land clearing or whatever and make pretty short work of all the small wood. I like to cut timber by hand but it is the small wood that is time consuming and kills your production average. With the buncher I can cut all that and sort it right in the woods, by the different species or put everything with bolts and small logs together so you don't have to make so many stops on the landing with the skidder. What works the best i have found is if you can bunch and sort it in the woods and buck it up right there. With the buncher you can carry the wood for quite a distance and if you have a sensitive area you can carry all the wood away from it and not fall it by the stump or require the skidder to go into it. Then take the forwarder and drive up to your bucked up bunches and load an entire dray load right there, all of one species or pulp, logs or bolts.

Magicman · « **Reply #43 on:** March 08, 2011, 01:48:27 pm »

You stated that the last picture was post. Are the previous short wood loads pulpwood? No one takes short pulpwood here anymore. It's all tree length.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 08, 2011, 02:25:54 pm »

Quote from: Magicman on March 08, 2011, 01:48:27 pm

You stated that the last picture was post. Are the previous short wood loads pulpwood? No one takes short pulpwood here anymore. It's all tree length.

No magicman cedar is not used for manufacturing paper it is not pulp. However, all of the pulp mills here take 100" wood there are no paper mills that take tree length wood up in these parts like there is down south. I would guess that is because the pulp wood here is from a variety of species and not just southern yellow pine.

The last pic shows a load of fence posts but in order to make posts it has to fall within a certain diameter range, be sound and straight.

So the 8' wood that I hauled home is whatever would not make long lumber. About 1/2 of it is straight sound 8' bolts. The rest is the crooked, not sound and whatever else. Even the unsound logs I will saw up and make it into material to pile lumber on or it can be used for a variety of purposes where decay resistant material is required. A lot of this will be turned into privacy fencing, siding or decking for outdoor use. With cedar saw bolts are commonly taken down to as small as 6" diameter if it is a straight slick and clean piece. A 4x4 or 2x4 is a pricey thing to buy if it is cedar when compared to most other types of softwood. Even the pieces that I had to butt off the trees I hauled home. If they are sound and at least 12" diameter and 20" or so long, I have several people who carve decoys that will take them. You might be surprised at what I can get for just 1 little piece of cedar like that

My biggest head scratcher is what to do with the crooked small diameter logs that I can't get at least 6' boards out of. And I think I have figured that out. I think I should be able to get rid of it all to people who need short lengths for cordwood construction

cedar is the best type of wood for that because it doesn't shrink much and has exc+ insulating values.

barbender · « **Reply #45 on:** March 08, 2011, 02:35:23 pm »

Beautiful Cedar, Northwoods! I like the thought of marketing the "junk" stuff for cordwood construction, sounds like maybe a craigslist ad is in order

MM, I know of only one mill in the north country that takes tree length pulp, Boise up in International Falls. There are several sawmills in MN that take tree length wood to, one sorts out the saw logs and chips the remainder, then sends the chips to , you guessed it, Boise in International Falls

Autocar · « **Reply #46 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:41:19 pm »

I sure wouldn't want to drill all the post holes by hand for that load of fence post you have there

Sounds like you dot all your eyes and cross all your T's good work on moving everything. Will you saw all and stick all your lumber by yourself ? If that's the case your not going to have anytime to look for arrowheads or mushrooms

northwoods1 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:47:56 pm »

Quote from: barbender on March 08, 2011, 02:35:23 pm

Beautiful Cedar, Northwoods! I like the thought of marketing the "junk" stuff for cordwood construction, sounds like maybe a craigslist ad is in order MM, I know of only one mill in the north country that takes tree length pulp, Boise up in International Falls. There are several sawmills in MN that take tree length wood to, one sorts out the saw logs and chips the remainder, then sends the chips to , you guessed it, Boise in International Falls

There is 1 big sawmill here that I know of which takes tree length wood http://www.biewerlumber.com/
when it 1st opened up in the late 80s' I cut a lot of wood for them, all pine. The mill is all fully automatic, I forget how many full length trees go in one end every minute and they just keep getting spit out the other end at an unbelievable rate.
Last year I had someone contact me who lived up near Duluth and they had a school where they taught cordwood building. They were in desperate need of some cedar at that time and wanted to drive all the way down to my place to get 6 cords. The price I had to quote them for sound saw bolts was very high and I was not really inclined to sell them wood in the round anyway as I have a sawmill. This crooked wood should be just the ticket for what they needed.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:53:45 pm »

Quote from: Autocar on March 08, 2011, 03:41:19 pm

I sure wouldn't want to drill all the post holes by hand for that load of fence post you have there Sounds like you dot all your eyes and cross all your T's good work on moving everything. Will you saw all and stick all your lumber by yourself ? If that's the case your not going to have anytime to look for arrowheads or mushrooms

Auto, I can't say that many things are going to happen for certain, but of the few things I venture to predict is that I will be looking for mushrooms and arrowheads

I need a new place to mushroom hunt by the way, they are getting scarce where I have been going.

With the lumber I pretty much just saw custom orders. I saw it and it goes down the road quick. Anything I saw incidental to custom orders will be blown out $$ wise and if I start getting to much low grade stuff it will be chipped along with the slabs and sold for mulch or bedding. One thing I do not need is piles of lumber to be accumulating.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #49 on:** March 08, 2011, 05:32:33 pm »

Magicman, we have some mills up this way taking treelength, some take 100" and some take anything between 8' and 24' mixed in the load.

Frasers in Edmundston takes 4',8', and tree length softwood pulp, Verso in Bucksport, Maine take 4'.

treefarmer87 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 08, 2011, 06:59:11 pm »

is it tippy? i saw some decent sized cedars, did they give you any trouble? or did u hand fell those?

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #51 on:** March 08, 2011, 07:05:31 pm »

Wrong tab

Clark · « **Reply #52 on:** March 08, 2011, 07:52:22 pm »

That is some nice cedar. I hate to put you on the hot spot but are there any plans to get the cedar back in there?

I toured the Biewer mill several years ago. If I recall correctly they cut about 600 cords/day into lumber. Amazing place to see and tour.

Quote from: northwoods1 on March 08, 2011, 02:25:54 pm

My biggest head scratcher is what to do with the crooked small diameter logs that I can't get at least 6' boards out of...

I knew one guy who cut a lot of cedar and he would take it down to an inch or two. The real small stuff he could sell in no time to places that made spindles and the such.

Clark

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #53 on:** March 08, 2011, 08:05:54 pm »

Anyone buying or using telephone poles from cedar out there? I see some cedar telephone poles in some remote areas here. They last for as long as treated ones. I've seen treated poles replaced twice here on the road and them old original cedar poles where in the ground over 35 years before they came with saws and cut them off.

Can you cut the sweep out for rails? We could always use it all as long as it was sound and large enough top. Cedar mills here were always a dime a dozen. Here today bust tomorrow.

How about barrel staves from the sweep material? My father had some made 30 odd years ago at a local barrel shop and they held together well, never busted a one and they held 165 lbs of potatoes.

banksiana · « **Reply #54 on:** March 09, 2011, 01:19:20 pm »

Cedar like that would sell pretty quick here in MN. I have custom log home builders contacting me quite a bit. There is a cedar mill in Big Falls that is always full of wood.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #55 on:** March 11, 2011, 12:39:53 am »

Quote from: Clark on March 08, 2011, 07:52:22 pm

That is some nice cedar. I hate to put you on the hot spot but are there any plans to get the cedar back in there?

I am not a trained forester, but from what I have noticed when it comes to cedar regeneration is that the amount of deer browsing it is probably the most limiting factor to what prevents it from taking hold and coming back. Down in the farm country where I cut this job there is such a huge amount of food that is more preferred than cedar the browse factor is just not a problem, even though there are a lot of deer around. There are a lot of dairy farms and as a result a lot of alfalfa fields. When I cut this job it did not even bring any deer in, but you should have seen what the deer where doing to the surrounding alfalfa fields

. Another thing I noticed about this particular job is the areas that had blown down. There was probably between 1-2 acres that had previously blown over and had begun to regenerate and had about 15-20 years of growth in the areas where the sunlight was able to penetrate to the forest floor. It was about 50/50 cedar that was8-12' tall and the rest was 15'-20' black ash. I did also leave an uncut perimeter or smaller cedar around the main area of larger timber where the original path had begun to grow out. I know that getting this white cedar to regenerate can be a problem.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #56 on:** March 11, 2011, 06:57:31 am »

My experience withe cedar is pretty much what northwoods explains. Cedar puts out a lot of seed and it has to land in a spot on the ground where the sun can warm the ground for good germination. Deer browse pressure is a major factor in survival in some places. Other areas they either have lots of food as suggested or there simply aren't many deer. I never seem to have trouble on my woodlot to get it to grow because there is lots of seed and no deer. But in southern NB they are having a harder time getting it to come back. I have thinned whole stands of new cedar with brush saw.

This is 40 acres of cedar we thinned. The lighter green away from the photo edges and fields. The NE was a wetland around an old beaver pond. The woodlot owner said his dad cut it 20 years before we thinned it. It is slow growing for sure.

barbender · « **Reply #57 on:** March 11, 2011, 08:36:46 am »

Deer browse our cedar so hard that the state has severely limited the stumpage available for sale, as they can't get it to grow back

I think the Chippewa N.F. has quit selling it altogether.

banksiana · « **Reply #58 on:** March 11, 2011, 09:41:49 am »

This can be seen all over the north now, especially up highway 6. What I don't like about this is that the reserved cedar shades the ground out around it resulting in no regeneration of anything but sedges and grass.

g_man · « **Reply #59 on:** March 11, 2011, 10:31:57 am »

Nice work Northwoods. Great photos and thread, very informative.
I have a few cedar in an area with good regen potential. I guess they were left as seed trees, but the deer presure is to high and in the 11 years I have been here there is no cedar regen.

Autocar · « **Reply #60 on:** March 11, 2011, 11:26:57 am »

Northwoods the Black ash you talked about dose the ash borer bother it like it dose the white ? Down here there only killing the white. Blue and Gray they don't seem to bother.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #61 on:** March 11, 2011, 03:48:05 pm »

Quote from: Autocar on March 11, 2011, 11:26:57 am

Northwoods the Black ash you talked about dose the ash borer bother it like it dose the white ? Down here there only killing the white. Blue and Gray they don't seem to bother.

I am not sure Autocar but I would venture to guess that the black ash will be affected along with the white if and when it does reach this area. Currently it has not even reached WI yet to my knowledge. I know that if it does and has the effect that it will destroy all the ash then there are going to be some very large areas that will be completely denuded of forest as there are a lot of large areas containing predominantly ash.

Swampdonkey, the cedar sure does grow slowly! I've noticed that when it begins growing the seedlings might only reach 1" in the first year. And it seems that it continues at a not much higher growth rate for several more years. It is amazing to count the growth rings on a mature tree they can be extremely small!

Barbender, I have cut a lot of Federal jobs and the one species that was always off limits was the white cedar. Probably more to do with protecting the watersheds, and for good reason. Most of the streams and rivers in the entire area drained by my part of the state need some serious help. They are only a shadow of what they were a century ago.

Peter Drouin · « **Reply #62 on:** March 11, 2011, 06:45:55 pm »

Northwood1 You say ceder needs some serious help.to protect the watershed? you sound like its bad over there. I know we all have to make a living, I cut trees all the time. but the cedar is slow to come back or not at all.should we keep cutting until theres no more shadow? dont get me wrong all trees we have here come back so fast its crazy. we have butternut and not to much a lot of people won't cut it down. and I will not cut it up,( only storm damage trees that would rot if left) I don't know just my 2 cents

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #63 on:** March 11, 2011, 07:25:18 pm »

We cut butternut here, but maybe a bit less since it's at risk from cankers. But of the sites I know of that grew butternut and was harvested, there was always butternut regenerating. Butternut doesn't live real long like sugar maple, about 80 years and it's about it. The ridge out behind has it coming back where is was cut. Lots of pole sized trees. It's not in pure stands , maybe pockets, and not thick like aspen for sure, but it never was.

northwoods1 · « **Reply #64 on:** March 11, 2011, 08:05:01 pm »

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 11, 2011, 06:45:55 pm

Northwood1 You say ceder needs some serious help.to protect the watershed? you sound like its bad over there. I know we all have to make a living, I cut trees all the time. but the cedar is slow to come back or not at all.should we keep cutting until theres no more shadow? dont get me wrong all trees we have here come back so fast its crazy. we have butternut and not to much a lot of people won't cut it down. and I will not cut it up,( only storm damage trees that would rot if left) I don't know just my 2 cents

Peter, I know I am not to clear some of the time about what I am trying to write, maybe most of the time

but what I was trying to say is that, for example the Forest Service never cuts any cedar here. Areas that contain cedar are not even on the forest management plan. Here, cedar grows almost exclusively on the wettest ground. These areas a lot of time are along streams, at the headwaters of watersheds or are areas that drain into them. These areas if they are growing cedar will hold the water back so it just doesn't simply run off when the snow melts or after a rainy season. This tends to keep the streams at a higher more consistent water temperature and flow. Most of us are familiar with the issues relating to protecting water sheds and wetlands in general. These areas of cedar and wetlands also tend to act as filters for the water that is coming from agricultural land. Protecting these wetlands is not only important for the health of the streams and rivers but it also helps keep the ground water table up and also the lake levels.
Forestry and proper harvesting of trees is nothing to be afraid of but it has to be done in a way that we can realize the effects we are having on the environment when we do it. There are a lot of other reasons to try and preserve the cedar besides just the watersheds. In the winter when we have a really severe one all the deer will yard up in these areas to be protected from the cold and because it is the only browse available. Those are just a couple examples of why it would not be good to keep cutting it when it is not regenerating on its own.
All in all though there is one heck of a lot of cedar around these parts it is not in any kind of danger of being lost as a species like the elm, ash or butternut. But we need a lot of it for the reasons I mentioned.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #65 on:** March 13, 2011, 02:25:37 pm »

On the east side of the Hiawatha National Forest back in in the 1960's when we had good cedar markets we would strip cut the cedar and then control burn the clear cut strips in the spring of the year to expose the mineral soil for cedar regeneration.

We would clear cut one strip 1 chain wide (66 feet) and then leave two. However, deer are are a serious detriment to regenerating cedar and not much is harvested these days in areas of high deer populations since it is almost impossible to regenerate cedar in such areas. It's regeneration is also very slow in coming.

chevytaHOE5674 · « **Reply #66 on:** March 13, 2011, 03:37:38 pm »

The deer are the biggest problem with trying to get cedar to regenerate in this area. Cedar seems to sprout without much issue and grows decently until it is above the snow line in the winter then it gets browsed down. So we have plenty of cedar "shrubs" in the woods here. Deer don't seem to bother the cedar much except in the winter when that's all there is too eat. IME

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #67 on:** March 13, 2011, 05:32:17 pm »

Quote from: banksiana on March 11, 2011, 09:41:49 am

What I don't like about this is that the reserved cedar shades the ground out around it resulting in no regeneration of anything but sedges and grass.

That may be so in some instances, then maybe not. I had a logger call me up and ask if he could plant a cedar site with spruce seedlings. I said let's have a look at it. We drove to the site, the only access was an old railroad bed. We arrived at the site and he said, nothing coming. I said let's go for a walk and have a look. We walked through it and just about everywhere you stepped was spruce and cedar so thick you couldn't count it. All under 6", but a carpet of trees. I guess we won't need any trees. Nope. Different view when it's not out the window.

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