Author Topic: Tree Tags (Read 2502 times)

OneWithWood · « **on:** December 02, 2003, 08:06:29 am »

I have been thinking about ordering some tree tags so I can inventory my stand. I hope to transfer the data to some Topo software. The only nails offered by the company that carries the tags are 2 1/4" aluminum nails.
Can these nails be used without damaging the tree? Is there a better way to fasten the tags? I hate piercing the bark if it is going to invite problems.

Jeff · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2003, 04:00:31 pm »

And I hate to hit nails, even aluminum nails damage saw teeth. I would think something shorter should do the job unless you feel you have interlopers that might try to pull tags. I'll try to remember to bring a couple of my sign nail pulling teeth from work to show. The aluminium 1 inch nails must work fine cause I keep finding them still in the trees.

Stephen_Wiley · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2003, 05:37:39 pm »

One w/wood,

What species of tree are you tagging? (i.e. thin bark or deep fissured).

Have you considered # 'd survey stakes driven on the Northside of tree. No damage occurs to trees and vandals will not be aware of their presence.

Bud Man · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2003, 07:53:17 pm »

Think I'd use rebar in combination with GPS and plant several of each species to ensure success of the species. That with a topo map identifing the GPS locations and with the use of a detector ought to last your lifetime ! The next generation can replace the rebar as needed and charge the general public to view your perpetual garden efforts. The trees will also enjoy the Iron ! Create a map of the species and let folks try and identify each of the plots with you supplying the right answers for whatever level of gratification you desire. Let your imagination run and have fun and enjoy !

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #4 on:** December 03, 2003, 02:30:12 pm »

Just curious, but why are you tagging your trees just for an inventory? I've never done that.

If you are looking for permanent plots, you could just go the GIS route and make a simple map for each plot, if you are looking to plot growth.

Jeff · « **Reply #5 on:** December 03, 2003, 02:45:12 pm »

This is how I find those 1 inch aluminium sign nails. At least they only bung up one tooth. Usually.

woodmills1 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 03, 2003, 06:46:39 pm »

OUCH!

did something yesterday that was a first for me. Brushed the feed speed with my sleeve and drove the blade into the log way too fast. Won't be using that one again.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2003, 08:01:57 am »

Ron,
Maybe I am being overly anal. I would like to have a listing of my harvestable and near harvestable trees complete with species, location, grade and estimated board feet for each tree. It is just a part of my overall plan and may allow me to make better decisions on whether to buy logs or harvest my own for particular orders. Doing the actual inventory is a great way for me to stay very connected to my trees and property.
Stephen,
I would be tagging Oaks ( red, black, white, chinkapin, chestnut ) Poplars, Walnut, Hickories ( Mockernut, Pignut, Shagbark ) Maple, Sassafrass, Basswood, Ash, Sycamore, Cherry, Beech, Gum etc.
Bud Man,
That would be a lot of rebar to tote around! I thought of using aluminum plant tags that stick in the ground but they are expensive and I would have to engrave, emboss or otherwise stamp each one. I also like the fact that if the trees are tagged interlopers might understand that I care about my trees and show them a bit more respect. ( I could be kidding myself on the last one)

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2003, 02:15:35 pm »

Are you planning a 100% sample? It sounds like a lot of work, and some of it is probably unnecessary.

How many acres are you talking about? If its only a few acres, then it wouldn't be so bad. Personally, I would find all those tags distracting from the character of the forest.

Instead of using nails, maybe you can get away with a staple gun. Staples probably wouldn't get down into the wood area, and stay in the bark.

Stephen_Wiley · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2003, 03:12:09 pm »

My initial thought is what 'Ron' just referred to in stapling them on.

However, my past experience is that stapling is temporary and will require you to walk through and reapply them from time to time.

I have also used thin wiring wrapped around the circumference or "j" hooked into the bark. This has been more effective than staples as forest critters often can unloose the tag.

How many acres are you doing this on ?

I might suggest that a 'actual' site map with tree location be created using GIS or just visually blocking off 100' square areas using a tape and mapping trees within this block area. Then the need to tag could be greatly reduced to block corners only, or not at all. (Since the map is reflective of actual trees)

The map will provide the management tool you seek. To address onlookers purchase some "Stand Exam" flagging tape and leave 'streamers' in trees (with staples) or wrap from tree to tree where onlookers will most likely interact with your woods.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2003, 06:42:12 am »

I have 100 acres of which 95 is forested.
I agree it is a lot of work - but pleasurable work for me.
Stephen makes a good point about the asthetics of all the tagged trees. Maybe I will go back to GPS coordinates and not leave a tag. Or maybe I could place the tags at the base of the tree close to the ground where the average person never looks.
I have placed 2" PVC pipes over steel fence post all around the property boundary so at least one other pipe is visable from each one. To each pipe I have attached a 3" tree farm system sign as well as a classified habitat or classified forestry sign. Many of the posts also have a No Tresspassing / No Hunting sign attached.
Actually, I think I could incorporate the earlier suggestion about the rebar and mount the tags on a spike and stick them in the ground at the base of the tree on the north side. Gee, if I do that then when I get disoriented I could always look for the tag

I know the professional foresters take site estimates and draw all sorts of useful info such as basal stem area (or something like that) and can also estimate quite accurately the volume by species of an area. Can you also get an accurate estimate of volume by grade? In a mixed hardwood forest how many plots would you estimate? Would each plot be 100 square feet? The terrain is ridges and ravines. Would you select plots based on geographic orientation?
Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. I hope you have not hurt yourselves laughing to hard over the thought of a 100% tree inventory

Remember I am a bean counter in one of my lives and thrive on detail

However, I can see the forest for the trees

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2003, 11:01:28 am »

100% inventories are fine when you go and mark trees for removal. But, even that can be cumbersome.

There are several different ways to take an inventory. Personally, I like variable plots and use a 10% sample. It can give as much data as you need, as long as you collect it at the time of the inventory. I have found that my inventory is correct within about 3-5%.

I have written some infor over in the Knowledge Base on point sampling. This will give you an idea of how to start, how to cruise, and how to compute the findings.

Every time you take a sample, each tree is a representative of several trees per acre, depending on size. The more plots, the more the accuracy.

I take a plot every 200 feet (for 10% cruise) or every 300 feet (for 5% cruise). I conduct these on a north-south, east-west grid. As I go along, I will draw a pretty decent map. I will also note each plot # for location on the map.

After you are done, you may find that you have several different types of forests within your property. These may be due to size of trees, slope, aspect, tocking, species composition, etc. You will be able to identify those areas on your map. It will be real cool how everything falls into place.

From your new map, you will be able to determine the area for forest type. Then, you will compute the volume per acre for the combined plots in that type. That will give you a pretty good idea of volumes, stocking levels, etc. Then you can make some pretty intelligent decisions on what to do next.

I usually give the trees a 1,2,3 type of grading system. You can do this on quality or by vigor. I also mark which trees I think should come out. That will give me a definite volume if there are any harvest recommendations. When compiled, it will show how much good stocking I have. If there isn't enough, what do you do then?

The total cost for equipment is pretty low. You need a compass, a notebook, a pencil, a diameter tape (if taking diameters), some surveying ribbon, and an angle guage. I prefer an angle guage over a prism due to their durability, their price and their versatility. You should also have a dot grid to determine area. I think you can get away with less than a $100 investment.

Sound forest management begins with a timber inventory. Too much timber gets cut without the benefit of an initial cruise, in my opinion.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2003, 11:03:25 am »

OWW,

My Dad has done our tree marking for thinning and harvesting. While he is marking, he makes notes of exceptionally large trees (which we often leave) , trees needing harvesting but of a species that we aren't cutting currently, or trees of veneer grade. He made a map using graph paper and an aerial photo and then made several photocopies. He can go right to any tree he made notes on by using co-ordinates. Dad also has several plots throughout the property where he takes yearly measurements of trees. To identify these, he smoothes the outer bark with a hand axe and they paints numbers on them. In addition to this, we had the farm forester make an inventory of the entire place 30 years ago. I helped him actually measure about 1% of the trees and make a map of the forest types. It took us two or three days and has been very useful for managing the timber.
You don't have to mark each tree to do a good job of management..

OneWithWood · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2003, 04:34:13 am »

Ron, I read your info in the knowledge base. Very straight forward and easy to comprehend. Thank-you.
I am going to give the point sampling method a try. I should be able to get what I need with a few additional notes. .

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2003, 04:37:56 am »

If you run into any problems, please feel free to ask questions.

rebocardo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2003, 02:00:38 pm »

FWIW: As long as it was not around my house, I would let people hunt on my land. Serious hunters will not do anything damaging to your property. I only have 30 acres and people hunt and ATV across it all the time. It is the non-locals up from NY NY you have to worry about, imo. Unless you are worried about slugs in the trees.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2003, 06:56:30 am »

Rebo,
It is the local hunters who insist on using screw in steps that create the most grief for me. If someone is courteous enough to ask my permision and agree to my standards I will let them hunt the property. I only ask that they refrain from injuring the trees in any way and that they let me know when and where they will be hunting.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2003, 02:01:11 pm »

I've seen where some good hunters went and used RR spikes for steps. I even hit them with a saw.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #18 on:** December 08, 2003, 03:16:07 pm »

DanG Ron,

Ya hit um with a saw

Whadda ya do to the bad hunters?

We had a new neighbor who is a surveyor (registered in several states). He did a bunch of surveying and needed to cross our land. He nailed little flags to a bunch of trees with #16 nails. I suggested that he retrace his steps and remove them

Norm · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2003, 04:41:23 am »

That Ron is tough on folks isn't he.

We have an old woodlot that adjoins our place, probably 6-10 acres. I tried to buy it but the guy who owns it with his sister live out of state. I never could get ahold of em so I just sent them a polite letter asking if they'd be interested in selling. One day this guy shows up at our place and says he's the owner and this land has been in his family for 3 generations. Not interested in selling because people would just clear it off for farmland. I asked permission to hunt there and he said that would be fine if I would keep and eye on it for him. Last weekend I was hunting there and about every 100' on the outside border he had put up a sign nailed into some beautiful red oaks and red elms that read "Hollingsworth Forest"

Tom · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2003, 07:46:05 am »

I've been baffled as to what these things were for some time now. A neighbor told me but I forgot. Describing them to Br'er Noble I put him on a mental journey that carried him through brain cells he's not used since childhood. He finally said that he figured it out just before I sent this drawing to him and was poised at the keyboard to tell me what it is. Do y'all know?

In 1984, right after acquiring this property, I had bush hogged a path through the swamp on a Sat. evening. Sunday I returned to do some more clearing and exploring and some %*(*&**&*&^%$#@# had driven ladders up 6 or 8 oak trees along the new path. They won't come out because the serrations/threads hold them in. You can't loosen them like you might a nail because the metal is so hard that it breaks and leaves half ot the thing in the tree. I still get mad when I think about it. I marked the trees then and still haven't taken them down yet. They will be firewood because that's what that $*^% hunter turned them into. (&%^%&$

etat · « **Reply #21 on:** December 09, 2003, 01:50:16 pm »

They come out of a cotton picker. That's the teeth that strips the cotton out of the bole. After while I'll try to remember the real name for them. But no doubt, that's what they are.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #22 on:** December 09, 2003, 02:30:20 pm »

When we hit 'em with a saw, they just better hope it ain't running.

etat · « **Reply #23 on:** December 09, 2003, 08:06:54 pm »

Here's a link to a picture of some new ones. http://www.bakerfarm.com/products/bhc277078.html

I've made center punches out of used ones. Have to be careful though because they're some kind of alloy steel and hard. Sometimes they'll shatter.

And of course they are called a spindle. Duh, sometimes my memory ain't what it used to be.

Driving em into a tree should be considered cruel and inhumane punishment to the tree. Even worse than spikes.

There's some pretty hard plastics being made these days, why couldn't someone make a small plastic spike that wouldn't tear up a saw?

Tom · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2003, 08:14:26 pm »

Folks just shouldn't drive stuff into a tree and dat's dat.
Even something that doesn't hurt the saw still makes a wound in the tree. A big scar right in the middle of a pretty table.

Granddaddy would have whupped me for driving a nail in a tree.

That's what noble came up with too. Y'all are pretty smart.

Tillaway · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2003, 07:08:29 am »

I'm a little late on this one here.

Go ahead and use the nails and tags just put them below stump hieght to keep them out of Jeff's saw.

Fixed plots for inventory particularly for a DIY inventory are much simpler. The plots are usually 1/20 (26.4') acre or 1/5 (52.7') acre radius in size. The math is easier and it can eliminate any in/out tree problems you will have with variable plot cruise. You measure to the center of the tree at ground level to do this.

Frank_Pender · « **Reply #26 on:** December 24, 2003, 07:27:11 pm »

Tillaway, you and Stephen need to get up here again at the same time.

That way, since I only have 70 acres you both could show me how to plot this place to show every tree site, record and describe each species.

I could then put up a big plaque with both your names on it, giving credit for the ploting project etc.. You might even have half a chnce of teaching me something about this GIS business.

Tobacco Plug · « **Reply #27 on:** December 25, 2003, 05:41:02 am »

ckate,
Those things from the cotton picker are called spindles.

Tillaway · « **Reply #28 on:** December 26, 2003, 07:02:17 am »

Hi Frank,
Maybe this summer. So would you like permanent inventory plots or would you like an inventory of the property by type? We all can get togther sometime and discuss it.

rebocardo · « **Reply #29 on:** December 26, 2003, 03:38:14 pm »

re:spikes in trees

I did not know hunters used spikes in trees to get their seats up there. The ones I have seen, the guy just climbs up using rope. I can not imagine someone using 16D nails to mark trees either.

On my trees I used flagging tape, wrap it around a tall branch away from the trunk, and use 1/4 HD staples to fasten the tape to the branch. Only problem is once the branch has grown a bit, the tape breaks.

If you wanted, you could drill a hole and use a plastic screw (nylon) screw. They have black plastic ones that are pretty tough, though it would not present a problem to a chainsaw.

What you might consider is a GPS (WAAS enabled) and a notepad that runs bar code scanner software. First, attach all the barcode labels. Then walk through a second time, scan the label into the database, then add the GPS coor. using a pen along with a comment from a check list of options.

Once back home, download into a database where you can sort on any of the data.

BTW: With all this work, keep a copy of the database off-site, I keep mine at a bank safety deposit box.

re:rebar
Really stinks when you run over it in a forest and punch a hole in your tire. Or worse when the tree grows around it. The only thing worse is when people put barb wire into trees and you trip over that. imo

Stephen_Wiley · « **Reply #30 on:** January 03, 2004, 11:46:16 am »

Tillaway,

Sounds like Frank wants a 100% sampling. GIS may be out of the question due to canopy cover. (I do not have any GIS equipment). If you have some would be fun to try if you have a repeater.

Rebocardo,

I would not recommend plastic screws / drilling as it creates a wound to which pathogens can gain access to the trees. Often vectored by insects. However, if a project mandates installation of metal tags than your suggestion is a good alternative.

Tillaway · « **Reply #31 on:** January 06, 2004, 09:44:04 am »

Frank has allot of trees, it would probably be better to run a variable plot inventory by type. The answer would be the same and much faster. As far as GPS/GIS goes thats no problem. The accuracy of the consumer models is plenty close enough for establishing plot locations and the inventory database can be linked to plot location by GIS.

A 100% cruise would be quite an undertaking particularly if you try to map each tree.

Stephen_Wiley · « **Reply #32 on:** January 06, 2004, 11:01:14 am »

Great, we might be taking a cruise this summer

Do you suppose the wife will be jealous?

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2004, 01:01:16 pm »

A quick note on sample % and variable plot or prism cruising. The only way to come close to the % of the forest you sampled is to first do sampling to get density. Then use the area to estimate the % you covered. This is because plot size depends on tree diameter, not fixed linear measurements. To narrow down the actual percentage cruised you'll be making multiple entries into the woods to take samples. In point sampling your talking about degrees a freedom, confidence intervals and coefficient of variance, not % of stand area. Although, it can be estimated by estimating stand density from your samples.

With plot sampling its a fixed plot size, so only one entry into the stand is required to get an accurate percentage. But, apart from area, % of trees sampled is still an estimate.

Another note, the biggest factor on stand volume is site index (height). So if you have a poor cedar stand, don't group it together with a good cedar stand. Same with spruce, don't group a white spruce stand on an old field with one in the natural forest. There is a big different in tree heights even though diameters are the same.

On another note: I remember reviewing someones management plan that said there was a 50 acre stand of hardwood with 16 cord/acre. I search and search and searched. Once I started walking the property lines it all came into focus. The author had grouped a 10 year old clear cut with scattered residual hardwood of pulp quality (30 acres with 8 cord/acre) together with a mature hardwood stand (20 acres with 24 cords/acre). The recommendation was a clearcut of the 50 acres. Hmmm the landowner followed my advise and used a selection system taking the average or poorer quality trees out. So that ment he could take pulp, logs and some veneer, but he didn't high grade the stand. They cut firewood and pulp in the 10 yr old clearcut using spaced trails. It will later be thinned or released at age 30 yrs. Putting myself in the wood cutter's shoes here. I sure would hate having to wade through all that second growth cleaning up those residuals. But having that mature stand next to it was a trade off for him.
Typically what happens to our hardwood here is a devastation cut. Or the contractor starts cutting and the land owner gets greedy and want him to cut more and more. Most farm woodlots get clearcut for farm bill payments, so when they need some more money next time it's all over but the crying.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2004, 10:50:38 am »

We use aluminum nails and tags to number trees at breast hieght on permanent sample plots. This work is normally contracted out by Government to local Forest Products Marketing Board staff, they sometimes subcontract. On small dbh trees we use wire and attach the tag to a limb. In hardwood it does cause alot of wounds, sometimes revealing bare wood. I think to myself when I come across these scares: how does it influence the sample over time?

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Author Topic: Tree Tags (Read 2502 times)