Burl Tree

[Gary_C]

I have been cutting on a small job near the MN/WI border just south of Duluth. It's a thinning job and it's mostly Basswood and some Aspen. There is a scattering of Red Oak too. Not too far off the landing I saw this tree. I don't know if that is actually a burl as it is really part of the base of the tree.

 



Here is a closer picture of the bottom of the tree.

 



And here is another similiar tree nearby.

 



And this one is a Red Oak that is marked for cutting.

 



Any guesses as to what species is the first tree?

Sorry that's about all there is to go on as the tree is not marked for cuting though I don't know why not. The three trees are all within a 100 foot circle and there are more large trees within that circle. But the forester that marked the stand did not know what he was doing as he was loaned out from the main office and the good local forester that had to sign off on the apprasial had a lot of reservations about putting his name on it. He said the guy did not know the difference between Black Ash and Red Oak. 

[tyb525]

The bark looks like it could be Walnut

[Dave Shepard]

There is a small woodlot next to a cornfield we lease, maybe 10 acres. It's full of nice black cherry, and almost all of them have multiple burls. That suggests a localalized source to me.

[Jeff]

From what I can see from form, it could be cherry or even walnut.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm leaning toward walnut with the bark. I'd like to see the top though to eliminate a couple others. Those woods look like ash could be present with a scattering of cherry as well. Around here, since we don't have walnut, butternut would take it's place, but dominated by hard maple. The aspen would have to be over top the hardwood and quite large in comparison. Strong possibility it's butternut. Seems to be a lot of broken big limbs from ice and wind.

[Gary_C]

I am not sure if there is any walnut that far north. I know there is some in the Twin Cities but not in the Aspen, Birch, maple, and Red Oak forests in the north.

When I first saw the tree from a distance, my first thought was Black Oak and I kind of think that is more likely than Walnut. That growth at the bottom goes right into the ground and the stump is about three feet  in diameter.

But most Black Oak and especially ones that large are usually a very poor quality tree.

[SwampDonkey]

I think it follows the river mostly Gary, not all the way to the top of the two states. But butternut goes up further, not quite to the border. You may be right on the black oak, but a lot of stuff I can't see from here.   According to the range maps, black oak and walnut grow in the same range up in there, black oak grows further east into Wisc though and just inside the UP. Seems the bark is more furrowed than oaks, but you've seen a lot more of the oaks than me. Nothing beats putting your hands on it. If your handy to the river valley up there I still wouldn't rule out butternut. Seems a lot of limb damage for a strong oak tree. Butternut is week wood. Did you notice if the top flattened off some? But not over topped? We get butternut, a shade intolerant species, growing in hard maple here. The best butternut I seen that I could call a nice log, was growing in the ridge on the back of the farm with maple. It's sitting in some furniture now, and there was a twin right beside it I left to stand.

[Gary_C]

It could be butternut as I helped cut one just east of there in Sawyer county, WI. But it did not have a main trunk nearly as long as this one. I looked in a Wisconsin tree book and it did say there is butternut in Burnett County, WI and that is just across the St. Croix River and two miles away.

There is a little bit of black ash and some small cherry in that isolated patch of woods but it is dominated by basswood, aspen in the lowlands, and then red oak along with small red and hard maple. It's state forest land and was marked by a forester from the St. Paul office and I can't figure out what his objectives were on this thinning job. The local forester that is running the job told me the guy took three weeks to do three days of marking and he had tallied every tree that he marked. But he did not do a good job of marking them and failed to put spots at the base on many trees. So the local guy told me to just do the best I can but he took an early retirement offer and his last day was last Friday.

There is just not enough volume there to come back in less than 15 to 20 years and then most likely those two trees will be on the ground. But I am already sick of picking basswood stems out of those clumps and just want out of there.

But I will be back there Monday and can poke around in the snow under those trees for some leaves.

[SwampDonkey]

Poke a jack knife into the bark to see if you come to some yellow inner bark. Butternut don't get as tall as walnut, but in that picture that tree is also a dominant one among small stems. The one I cut on the farm was tall as the maples, with a clear bole for several feet. But, the maples were not larger than 16 inch, while the butternut was 20 inch. There are a bunch of white ash, yellow birch, beech and basswood on the same patch of ground to. Mostly maple though with an understory of ironwood beginning to take over. Most people on these farms don't let wood get much bigger than 20 inches before they cut the guts out of it.

[Clark]

How far south of Duluth are you working, Gary?  I'm working in the very NE corner of Pine county, sounds like you are a bit south of me?

I agree with your assesment that black walnut doesn't go much further north than the Twin Cities.  As you and SwampDonkey point out, butternut does much better on the northern edge of the black walnut range.  My parents have one (planted) in their yard that started at 3' tall and is now ~6" dbh after 12 years.  Black walnut this far north does very poorly, I've never seen one more than 30' tall.

Your tree could be one of several.  My first guesses are basswood, green ash and possibly a bur oak.  My money is on one of the first two.  I'd eliminate cherry also because it rarely achieves that size this far north and west.  It would be great to see a butternut around here but I've never seen a natural grown one here.

That stinks that the forester was clueless but I'm running into the same thing doing inventory work for them.  I had one stand that was supposedly only 6 cords/acre in 2006.  After I got done with it the computer spit out 24 cords/acre!  Somebody got paid to turn in bogus data...

Clark

[WDH]

If it is black oak, the inner bark will be bright orange.

[Bro. Noble]

There was this guy got on a bus and asked the driver if it went to Duluth.  He said "no it goes beep beep.

I think Mark M. told that one.

[Gary_C]

How far south of Duluth are you working, Gary?  I'm working in the very NE corner of Pine county, sounds like you are a bit south of me?

Clark you must be in the Nemadji SF. I am a ways south of you on the north side of Hwy 48 and just two miles west of the river. Foss was the forester that got left with the job but now he retired about a week ago. Are you working for the guys in Sandstone?

[Clark]

You're dead on Gary, I am working for the guys out of Sandstone on the Nemadji.  I am quite new to this part of the state so I don't know any of the foresters, just the name of one who fabricates data!

Have you figured out that tree yet?  I think you have several of us eagerly waiting for your verdict.

Clark

[Gary_C]

I am quite new to this part of the state so I don't know any of the foresters, just the name of one who fabricates data!

And your a thinking it's just one?   

You do know the state is broke and can't pay their bills right now. The more they exaggerate the numbers, the more downpayment the loggers have to put up. And the state is getting rid of the older foresters and demanding those that are left put up more wood for sale. That's one way to do it.

I am heading back there today and will see what I can find.

[SwampDonkey]

Gary, that never bothered them here, as far as the stumpage. Their still almost giving it away when silviculture is factored in and the province is still broke. Don't matter as long as they have their pensions.  About every 8-10 years they close up more DNR offices, retire a bunch and let industry gain more of a role as self regulators.   I rarely see a DNR truck in the woods, they're sitting in the yards of offices. At one point they were going to make them use their own personal vehicles for work.

[Gary_C]

OK, got some more pictures. First the burl tree. This is the picture posted before.

 



This is what the top looks like.

 



And the rest of the trunk.

 



 



And the leaves I could find in the snow close to the base. No guarantees from this tree as it is surrounded by red oaks, some maples, and basswood.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like a red oak, not sure whether black or northern red. Not a walnut or butternut, finer branches not stout enough looking and bark not right. Is there old barbed wire in that trunk? Looks like an old remnant from the last harvest, ugly old beast.

[Jeff]

That burl looks more to me like something like wire has grown into it.

[Gary_C]

Here is the other tree, about 50 feet from the burl tree. Notice the ugly scar on the side of this tree. I made this picture lighter and the tree on the left in the background is a red oak.

 



And then looking up.

 



And digging in the bark.

 



And the leaves found below.

 



I am wondering if these are white oaks, perhaps bur oak?

[SwampDonkey]

I would say bur oak to that one Gary, being as far north as you are. Manitoba has bur and no white. I think it would be more prolific there where your at. Those branches look burish to. Did you notice the finer branches were corky?

[Jeff]

Isn't a burr oak a white oak sub species?

[Gary_C]

That burl looks more to me like something like wire has grown into it.

I've never seen any wire in trees in the state forest lands and this is not really in a place where you would expect to see a fence. But from the bark damage of that other tree nearby, it could be skidder damage. Maybe cable damage from dragging trees from the lowlands just behind there.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, they are.

Bur is more to the north in Minn. I believe.

Gary that horizontal line in that burl is very typical of wire fence we see around here in trees. But, maybe it's not an agricultural area there.

[Clark]

Good pictures Gary!  I would say that the second tree is a bur oak also.  Lots of epicormic branches on it even though the canopy hasn't been opened recently - classic bur oak sign...unless it is the counties poorest form red oak!

I really doubt that any or either of these trees are black oak.  The Silvics Manual shows the range being south of you.  I recall that in Stevens Point, WI there were some but that was the northern edge of the black oak range.

SD - Bur oak is the native oak of northern MN, there is some red oak but it tends to be of poor form, the further east you go the more red oak there is and the better quality.  I also notice less bur oak the further east in the state you travel which makes sense as it is well adapted to the prairie in the west.

Clark

[WDH]

The second on is certainly not black oak because the inner bark is not bright orange.  I have no experience with bur oak.