what do I have here ??? (a lesson in identifying a hardwood.)**Solved-Hickory**

[seacraft18]

any ideas what this wood is ?

[tyb525]

I'd call that a hickory. Possibly mockernut.

Can you cut with a sharp knife or use a block plane to get a nice smooth patch of end grain in the heartwood, and take a close up of it?

[Banjo picker]

Welcome to the forum, but could you let us know within a couple hundred miles of where the wood came from.    Tim

[fishpharmer]

Welcome to FF!   Not sure about your tree, I don't think its sweetgum.

[SwampDonkey]

Hickory, and could be mockernut like Tyb said.

[WDH]

I am with the Hickory Guys.

[seacraft18]

I'd call that a hickory. Possibly mockernut.

Can you cut with a sharp knife or use a block plane to get a nice smooth patch of end grain in the heartwood, and take a close up of it?

thanks guys...  I will take a picture of some smooth end grain and post.  I am located in Central Massachusetts.

btw, This is a great site, I have learned alot here.

[tyb525]

Welcome to the forum, by the way!!

[seacraft18]

close up of end grain....

[tyb525]

Yes that's a hickory, however I'm still not exactly sure which variety, I'd still guess mockernut from the bark I can see.

What are you doing with this wood? Turning?

[WDH]

Confirmation.  Most definitely hickory.

[Jeff]

Confirmation.  Most definitely hickory.

Danny, can you describe what you see there that makes the hickory determination? 

[SwampDonkey]

Sometimes it's a process of elimination, as some traits can cross over between species.

Can't see the rays by eye, can with 10x lens. Large pores in early wood in one row band. Pores gradually get smaller toward the end of the ring in late wood, and solitary. color, some species with dark streaks.

white ash, rays can be seen by eye, but not well. Earlywood pores in bands of 2 or 3, sometimes 4. Latewood pores are grouped in 2-3 and solitary as well. Heart with yellow streaks

Oaks have large visible rays, eliminates them.

Elms have pores in ribbon pattern, eliminates them.

Chestnut have several rows of early wood pores, can't see rays hardly with a lens even. Eliminates that.

And if you have the wood in your hands there are other qualities you can key out.

[WDH]

Jeff,

Hickory is ring porous with the earlywood having large pores and the latewood having small pores.  Other species in the ring porous group are ash, the oaks, the elms, black locust, honeylocust, mulberry, osage orange, and sassafras.  That eliminates a whole bunch of species that are diffuse porous where the pore size is small and all of one size throughout the annual ring like cherry, maple, birch, yellow poplar, beech, sycamore, sweetgum, blackgum, the aspens, etc.

OK, so now we have a ring porous hardwood.  We know that it is not oak because the medullary rays are too small to see with the naked eye, it is not elm because in elm the latewood pores are arranged in wavy bands.  It is not osage or black locust because the pores are not totally occluded with tyloses like in those species and the color is wrong.   Also, black locust only ever has one or two rings of sapwood, not so in this case.  The color is wrong for mulberry and honeylocust and the rays in these species, while small, can be seen.  Color and grain is wrong for sassafras.  That leaves ash and hickory.  In ash, there are parenchyma cells that are visible with a hand lens that surround the latewood pores in chains.  Because these parenchyma cells are associated with the pores, it is called paratracheal.  Hickory also has this parenchyma, but it is not only associated with the pores, but is also present in the latewood as long bands that run parallel to the growth ring in the latewood.  This parenchyma is called apotracheal because it is not exclusively associated with the pores.

Look in the magnified pic.  The ring porous nature is obvious with the very large pores that initiate the annual growth ring followed by much smaller pores.  Although there, the medullary rays are too small to see.  Then, in the latewood, if you look close in the most magnified pic, you can see very small thin lines in the latewood that are parallel to the line of large pores that form the earlywood.  They are easiest to see in the two annual rings that are in the very center of the pic.  These faint lines run through the latewood and are not just associated with the pores.  This is apotracheal parenchyma. 

So,
1). ring porous
2). rays not obvious or visible
3). no distinct color except for brown heartwood with a cinnamon cast (characteristic of  the hickories and pecan)
4). apotracheal parenchyma in the latewood

The apotracheal parenchyma eliminated ash.  That leaves hickory.  The last clue is the overall color with the proper color in the heartwood.  Sometimes there will be darker brown almost black streaks or spots in hickory, but I do not see them here.  Then, finally, the bark has distinct interlocked ridges characteristic of hickory, particularly mockernut.

Also, like SD said, the pores in the latewood are sparse and solitary while they are more grouped in clusters in ash.  Another nod for hickory.  The fine detail in the pics is fabulous.  When most people take a picture and ask for wood ID, you cannot see all the detail like in this case, making it much more difficult to look at the distinguishing characteristics.  Seacraft, you did good!

[metalspinner]

The ring porous nature is obvious with the very large pores that initiate the annual growth ring followed by much smaller pores.

The pores in those pics look effervecent to me.  Like a glass of Sprite.  Is hickory the only wood with this kind of look in the pores?

[Ron Scott]

Yes, to hickory. Good summary of characteristics by WDH and Swamp.

[tyb525]

And if it looks like a tool handle...it's probably hickory

A pat on the back to WDH and SD for a great lesson in wood ID . I can ID 'em, I just can't explain how near as well

[seacraft18]

thanks WDH and SD for the lesson, I appreciate it.

TYB -  I have 5 logs - approx 900 bf I will be milling within a few weeks, I hope to use for furniture and flooring

btw... I was going thru my books yesterday, There is a book, Understanding Wood by
R. Bruce Hoadley, it's a great book that covers everything about wood.  There is a chapter on identifiying wood by looking at close ups of end grain.  WDH and SD 's  explanations are spot on.

[SwampDonkey]

I consider this my "Wood Bible" 



This is a section from the hardwood keys, based on gross features (see with the eye or 10 x lens).



Then at the end of each is a reference in the text to more details and pictures.

[Dave Shepard]

I use Hoadley's books. I was able to ID some black ash in the barn frame I'm restoring, with confirmation from Hoadley himself.

[WDH]

Ty,

Your method works just fine!  Most people would not recognize a parenchyma cell if they ran into one on a dark road one night  . 

You also have to use all the senses and not just rely on books.  Walnut and white oak have very distinctive smells, but of course you cannot yet smell on the Forum, but Jeff will probably fix that too soon  .

[SwampDonkey]

I use Hoadley's books. I was able to ID some black ash in the barn frame I'm restoring, with confirmation from Hoadley himself.

......and a little coaching as I recall.

Seems to me someone thought they had black locust for awhile.

Some may have mentioned.....

Looks ash-like, fine rays and solitary late wood pores, tyloses in early wood pores. Kind of dark though, should be more grayish brown for white ash. Not very rot resistant. Was thinking sassafras, but the pore pattern is not right in the latewood. Ash is quite tough stuff in my experience.

And someone jumped the gun a little here with his Hoadley book...

I think you may have it SD. I compared my photo to the Hoadley photos for white and black ash. Looks like white to me. Early on I had compared the tangential section to white ash, but wasn't sure. Now, I am more confident. I tried to look at a piece of white ash here, but couldn't see it as well as the photo. I may try to get another photo of some known white ash at work where I have my "laboratory" equipment, i.e. a sharp chisel and a tripod for my camera.

Until........

It's ash alright, nothing else fits. But, black ash is light like American elm when dry. White ash is heavy and hard and lustrous, black is dull when worked, no luster. There are parenchyma joining some pores in the white ash and they don't usually do that in black. If you look close to my picture, some looked linked in a chain of pores in the late wood by the parenchyma. Dave's are more solitary, so I would say he has black ash there along with the brown heartwood. White ash would have light yellow streaks in the heartwood, not as dark as black ash.

Then the revelation and proclamation... 

It's black ash. Confirmed by R. Bruce Hoadley.

[Dave Shepard]

I didn't mean to slight the Forums help on the ID. Just the result of hit-and-run posting. Before I started the thread, I thought it was ash, but was vetoed by the architect. That started the whole discussion here. When I got the camera and did the close ups was when we could really get a handle on the situation. I was able to send a sample to Hoadley through a connection and he re-confirmed the popular consensus. You, too were on the black locust path until the pics.

[SwampDonkey]

You, too were on the black locust path until the pics.

Yes, it could have been pine according to some.

I was just giving you a hard time Dave. No one felt slighted on this end. I don't get worked up that easy.

[mandolin]

I just sawed up about 300 bf of sweetgum. This looks just like it. Let it lay out in the sun a few days and if it curls up and warps until you could make a wagon wheel out of it, it's sweetgum.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't think its sweetgum.

Sweetgum isn't ring porous, but diffuse with non visible pores of uniform size across the ring like hard maple and dogwood.

[WDH]

Sweetgum is definitely warpy  .

[SwampDonkey]

American elm is to, I blame it on the interlock grain. I've never seen one elm board lay flat. That being said, my living room is elm paneling.

[WDH]

I have about had it with interlocked grain wood  .  I have sawn hackberry, sweetgum, and sycamore that looked gorgeous off the saw but ended up with major losses due to warp and twist.  That is too much work for such poor results.  Like was posted earlier, that stuff can warp up in a circle  .  I made a project out of sycamore and two out of sweetgum.  All three ended up with warp and twist that ruined the pieces.  That stuff just hates to be glued to another board.  I guess they are like identical poles on a magnet, they just repell each other.  That stuff must be perfectly dry, or it will move once you plane it.

Now, I have used hackberry and sycamore successfully as drawer sides where you were only using a single board.  But, my experience has been very poor with any type of glued up panel.  However, I would give it a try as paneling in a room where each board is free to move of its own accord.

There is a reason that interlocked grain domestic wood is mainly used for pallets.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm hearing ya.

This paneling I'm talking about is veneered like plywood.

[woodtrader]

good posts,
thx for sharing