Nice Sticks

[Ken]

 



We don't often get an opportunity to cut timber like this.  We are clearing nearly 20 acres to allow access to the aggregate underneath.  There is approximately 150 Mfbm of Pine on the job as well as some hardwood, spruce and poplar.  Some of the Pine have had 4 logs 16' with an additional short log at the top.  Makes for a fun day. 

Cheers
Ken

[thecfarm]

Nice. Any pictures of the equipment getting the logs out?

[treefarmer87]

NICE LOGS

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, there seem to be more pine south of here. Ours are mostly loaners, an old bruiser out in a stand by itself. Most of the time left behind. Is the price decent on pine now?


I just picked up Kent's flyer for this week. 2x6" maple, clear, 8', kilned, planed, $128 a piece. Promptly placed the flyer in the burn box.

I could buy 50 feet of rough, kilned, for that at Maritime lumber.

[Autocar]

Nice logs ,nothing like cutting or seeing them layed out on the landing.

[Ken]

The price for the highest grade delivered to JDI in Doaktown from that area is about $400/mfbm.  The other grades are worth $352, $234 and $146/mfbm respectively.  I will know more tomorrow about the scale as we are sending 4 trailerloads in the morning.  By my calculation the vast majority of the material should be scaled at the top 2 grades.  I will be pretty disappointed if it is any different.   Unfortunately the Irving mill is pretty much the only game in town for this product. 

I will try to get some pics of the loaded trucks in the morning as well as some pics of the skidders being used. 

Ken

[Ken]

We have managed to send 6 trailerloads over the past few days with another 2-3 on the landing.  They have averaged over 8000 bd ft with over 50% being at the top grade and the next 20% being at the next grade.  The skidder in the pics belongs to my dad.  It is a early 70's 230.  My 1981 225 Jack is not shown.  

[treefarmer87]

nice load and skidder

[SwampDonkey]

Nice wood to. Maybe Irving is getting along a little easier now that they (government) are going to study wood supply again. I guess your getting more than some mills in the states are paying right now. Still seems like we should get more for those nice sticks.

I wonder how many reports this makes sitting in the Harriet Irving Library.


Glad to see your still chugging along.

[Dave Shepard]

Those sure are some nice sticks. I could use a lot of that primo pine down here. How many postage stamps do you think it'd take to get it here? A friend is on a 500mbf job now, but very little is that nice.

[customdave]

Them are sure purty logs alright, kinda makes a fellas mouth water! Thanks for the pics..   


                         Dave

[SwampDonkey]

Also guys, we use NB log scale here which yields better than scales you folks use in the south. Them loads might only scale out to 6800 bf down south. Plus they are pine which don't taper as fast as HWD.

[snowstorm]

is the nb rule close to the bangor rule?

[northwoods1]

That is some nice wood your cutting there, and 8000' loads? That is a lot of wood I don't think I have ever had a load that big in my entire life how much does a load like that weigh#?
I like the way that skidder looks all polished up from use it looks quite happy

[SwampDonkey]

is the nb rule close to the bangor rule?

Yes.

[barbender]

Nice looking loads whatever the case How does the NB and Bangor scale compare to scales we are familiar with in the rest of the world?

[SwampDonkey]

Well here's the scaling table below in a document.

[beenthere]

Barbender
There is a good publication "A Collection of Log Rules" by Frank Freese.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr01.pdf

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr01.pdf

I had this link but it is not working. I'll see if I can find out what is wrong.

Now it should work.  The graphs show a comparison with the International 1/4" rule (which is a pretty close calculation of what is in a log) to several other known rules floating around and used in different localities.

[SwampDonkey]

NB rule:

12" top, 12 foot = 72 bf


Doyle = 48 bf

Scribner = 64 bf

International = 73 bf

Bangor = 78 bf

Most fellows around here prefer the Bangor scale if they have a choice. Some mills here did let you have Bangor scale if they had a mill in Maine as well as NB. Are many of you using International? Seems to me it's mostly Doyle.

[Dave Shepard]

Around here it's Int. 1/4", although I think you don't go far into New York and it's Doyle.

[SwampDonkey]

Also to keep in mind, we have a scaler's licensing and Act up here. Anyone who markets wood through crown or a marketing board has to have a license if they scale, according to the Act. I don't know how hard they lean on private mill owners, portable and such. But, pretty sure if I was a mill , (small, private or otherwise) buying my wood supply through a marketing board they would be looking for a scaler's license. If I was to go to a farmer and buy logs direct, probably not. I think it's just the contract holders. You could bet that farmer knows something about scale.

[Dave Shepard]

I bought a small load of ewp a couple of months ago. Guy wanted to scale the butt end. We were able to come to an agreement about it in the end.

[snowstorm]

the pine mill just down the road from here always was bangor rule now they international. most of mine goes to irving in dixfeild tho the other mill is only a mile away. he always tries to pack all he can 6800' on a triaxle truck is not unusual.

[SwampDonkey]

I bought a small load of ewp a couple of months ago. Guy wanted to scale the butt end. We were able to come to an agreement about it in the end.

Don't blame him, I'd try it to. j/k

[SwampDonkey]

Seems to me if you have the experience behind you, many going through the ranger school course will pick up their licensing.

[Ken]

I had over 9000 bd ft on the last load with 2/3 of it being the top grade at $400/   The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs. 

The old 230 shown in the photo has been around for quite some time.  I am not sure if there is another piece of equipment in anyones fleet that is as tough as the old "jacks".  They are very easy to work on and just keep chugging along. 

Cheers
Ken

[northwoods1]

I had over 9000 bd ft on the last load with 2/3 of it being the top grade at $400/   The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs. 

The old 230 shown in the photo has been around for quite some time.  I am not sure if there is another piece of equipment in anyones fleet that is as tough as the old "jacks".  They are very easy to work on and just keep chugging along. 

Cheers
Ken

That is interesting your getting so many b.f. on your loads. That is way more than what a typical load here would scale out at. That is why I asked how much your loads ##? The difference between the scales used wouldn't seem to account for the differences in load volume, maybe the guy scaling your loads in just a really nice guy
Below is a pic off a job I cut. The run of wood was bigger than what you are cutting there, but you can get an idea of what I am talking about. It would be unusual to have a load over 6000" here and most are closer to 5000'. Same type of double bunk arrangement your using. 80-90,000# depending on time of year. Typical load of pulp is 12-13 cords. I would love to have a load like what you showed scale out that high, man a guy could make good money sawing in the woods that way





 

[SwampDonkey]

At our marketing board we used one trucker delivering veneer to Columbia Forest Products in PI, Maine on Bangor Rule. Using a straight triaxle with a pup and self loader would scale fairly consistently to around 8000 bf. Our regular loads of hardwood pulp averaged 38 metric tonnes per load (that's a 10 % heavier ton). Some fellows pushed that to 48 metric tonnes. You get to become real familiar with this when you handle scale slips for hundreds of loads submitted by truckers from the mill scale houses. We now have our own scales at our yard now. I say our, because all of us woodlot owners bought and paid for and thus own the assets. We (from the farm) paid levy on about 12000 cord over the years so I'd say we, us, ours.

I would say it's quite obvious and clear it's the scale used on them loads that yields more bf. I can tell you right now that Irving is no logger's buddy on scaling. Probably the most hard nosed you can come up against.

Maybe the scaler is like Dave mentioned about his recent purchase agreement, scaling the but ends.

[barbender]

Usually a 5000' load over here is around #100,000, but that's red pine, the little bit of white pine I have hauled was way lighter than red pine.

[barbender]

One pine mill here uses decimal c Ithink, is that Scribner? The other uses International.

[northwoods1]

Usually a 5000' load over here is around #100,000, but that's red pine, the little bit of white pine I have hauled was way lighter than red pine.

Right, that is why I can't understand the discrepancy between the scales used, I mean Ken is talking about 9000' loads and a typical load here is about 5500' how is it quite obvious like swampdonkey says it is all in the scale? That doesn't sound right according to the scale example he gave it doesn't seem to be that much of a difference.

[northwoods1]

One pine mill here uses decimal c Ithink, is that Scribner? The other uses International.

Scribner and Scribner Decimal c are a little different, with decimal c it just rounds off the board feet to the nearest 10 board feet. Scribner is what is used around these parts.

[SwampDonkey]

I guess when I say it's hardwood weight I'm giving, everyone is still thinking white pine weight?  My mistake I guess. But we never moved any white pine in my area to amount to anything as I said in one of my first posts. Maybe someone is confusing a stick scale with a weight scale. I dunno. If your not convinced it's all in the scaling, and your saying your trailers are like ours for load capacity and we get twice the stick scale for the same load than I can't say much more. Maybe the world is really flat, I dunno.

Scribner as pointed out yields quite a difference in scale. I don't care what name you want to call the scale rule, I'm paid on the board footage. What are you getting for the better white pine?. Most I've heard from south of here is around $250-350. If your getting $600 or $700, which I doubt, then your not doing so bad. But it doesn't seem so to me. I can bet the difference in scale per log size is not constant. Doyle is a lot harder on scale with logs under 14" for instance, so the difference in scale is not a straight line on a graph of constant slope, more of parabolic curve. Use Excel and calculate the scale for each of the rules and graph the differences using International as a base line.

[lumberjack48]

Don't laugh guys, old school break down, if hes 8 feet high, 7 feet wide, and all 16 footers, 7 cords each bunk. We have a 14 cord load, 2.5 cords per thro. turns it in to a 5600 food load.
I logged and trucked 30 yrs, never had a 8000 foot load, 4500 to 5500

I wouldn't ask any questions, I'd keep on truck' en .

That's really nice timber, look's like some fun logging

I got so sick and tired of the short stick i started hauling all my pine tree length up to Page & Hill, Big Falls. MN., pretty hard to steal it that way.

[SwampDonkey]

The only mill that I am aware of in NB that uses the Bangor rule is Twin Rivers in Plaster Rock.  It is not uncommon for us to get 8500-9000 bd ft on two bunks there if we send good (8"+) logs.

Yes, because they have US sawmills as well.

We are more fortunate than others here in some ways. We have a short haul to the US at 3 crossings within 5-10 miles of the largest towns in our area and decent truck roads. Competition for Irving, and why we don't sell much to them. Most times they are the poorest price anyway.

Who does the check scaling at your mills down in the US? I think someone laughed at me the last time I asked.

[Ken]

Northwoods,

Unfortunately the Irving Pine mill does not weigh the trucks when they arrive so I don't know the exact weight but my guess is close to 110 000 - 115 000  lbs loaded.   I agree that there seems to be a large discrepancy between scaling methods.  We find that the Bangor rule used by Twin Rivers (formerly Frasers) gives us an additional 10-15%.  I have seen loads with 3 bunks scale out over 13 000 bdft using that method of scaling.  Those truckers were very happy not to meet the highway authorities with the portable scales during those trips. 

The really sad thing is with much of todays curve sawing technology and high efficiency sawmills we as contractors are not getting paid for the amount of board feet that is actually being produced/ton delivered. 

Cheers

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know what the answer is, but some of it may be the result of buying timber tracts on a cruised scale before it's bucked and rolled to inspect the grade, including the inside. If it were done that way up here, the odds would not be in your favour if you think every smooth maple and birch is a nice sawlog or veneer log. Non-the-less we know what direct contracts with individuals did for price. It sucked, thus we organized into marketing boards. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

That is some nice wood your cutting there, and 8000' loads? That is a lot of wood I don't think I have ever had a load that big in my entire life how much does a load like that weigh#?

Come to Michigan much??? Scale loads every day with 8000+ feet on them. (scaled in scribner decimal C)

[SwampDonkey]

Don't laugh guys, old school break down, if hes 8 feet high, 7 feet wide, and all 16 footers, 7 cords each bunk. We have a 14 cord load, 2.5 cords per thro. turns it in to a 5600 food load.

I can say one thing, the loads are taller than 8 feet from bed to top of the posts and wider than 7 feet.

[barbender]

I don't know if we are confusing issues here or not, I am a little dense But, the point I was trying to make and I think Northwoods is too, is that if I put what will scale out as 5500' of Red Pine logs on a truck I'm going to be overweight. With a three axle trailer we can run approx. 94,000# in the summer and 102,500 in the winter if I remember right (I haven't hauled since last winter, I forget quick ) There is no way we can get 8000' on and be even close to legal weight any time of the year, with the scale you get at the local mills. I just brought 2 loads of red pine logs home because it was smaller wood, mostly 10" tops 10-18' lengths, and when I tallied up what I had using the Scribner C scale, I figured that I would have been way ahead cutting the stuff into 100" bolts and sending them to the potlatch stud mill. They weigh scale, and a roughly #100,000 load converts to 11 1/2 cords or so at $89 cord. $1000 give or take. I figured scribner would only get me about 2500', at $205 per mbf. $500 or so, unless I am figuring wrong. I don't think I am as one of this mills main suppliers is only sending them wood that is too big to make Potlatch's 17"max size. The lumber scales beat you up bad on anything under 14".

[northwoods1]

I don't know if we are confusing issues here or not, I am a little dense But, the point I was trying to make and I think Northwoods is too, is that if I put what will scale out as 5500' of Red Pine logs on a truck I'm going to be overweight. With a three axle trailer we can run approx. 94,000# in the summer and 102,500 in the winter if I remember right (I haven't hauled since last winter, I forget quick ) There is no way we can get 8000' on and be even close to legal weight any time of the year, with the scale you get at the local mills. I just brought 2 loads of red pine logs home because it was smaller wood, mostly 10" tops 10-18' lengths, and when I tallied up what I had using the Scribner C scale, I figured that I would have been way ahead cutting the stuff into 100" bolts and sending them to the potlatch stud mill. They weigh scale, and a roughly #100,000 load converts to 11 1/2 cords or so at $89 cord. $1000 give or take. I figured scribner would only get me about 2500', at $205 per mbf. $500 or so, unless I am figuring wrong. I don't think I am as one of this mills main suppliers is only sending them wood that is too big to make Potlatch's 17"max size. The lumber scales beat you up bad on anything under 14".

I have to say I am really envious of Ken out there I mean, a guy could make really great money with just a skidder and a chainsaw cutting loads like he pictured that scale out as they do, and the $400 per thousand... That is the kind of money a person should be making for doing that kind of work
Thanks for posting the pictures Ken. You have such a nice neat landing, nice wood, and your getting good money for it.
Barbender I think your figures are absoultey correct as are lumberjack 48s , over here it makes more sense to cut wood like that 8' long and sell it by the cord. That is what we have always been forced to do here there just is not a good market for pine logs. You would be lucky to get $200mbf here for that wood Ken is cutting and those loads  would scale out at a lot less wood. Like lumberjack48 and others have pointed out, the short stick scalers at the log mills are another factor. Here that is the norm rather than the exception, at least it you cut the stuff short and sell it by the cord you can eliminate that factor.
And like Ken said even if a person gets a fair scale you are not getting paid for the amount of bf being produced and delivered, not by a long shot! I always was aware of that, but never so much as after I got my own sawmill. I know for a fact I can saw 50% more wood out of some logs than what the log scale would indicate.
Lumberjack 48 , that is such a great pic of you with that new skidder in 1968 I bet you were the 1st in your neighborhood to have one of those!

[SwampDonkey]

The price is actually down on pine, not too long ago we were getting close to $600/mbf on the top grade.

[northwoods1]

The price is actually down on pine, not too long ago we were getting close to $600/mbf on the top grade.

The price seems to be down on pretty much everything here

Here where I live, this is pine country too. When it comes to nice w.& r. pine logs , we have lot of it here and of the highest quality.

[SwampDonkey]

That's the trouble, it ain't scarce enough.

[ga jones]

25 cents a foot around here for white pine 20 for hemlock.5800 bf on trailer puts you at 81000 plus pounds a little over weight...Its almost not worth my time.............

[lumberjack48]

Thank you Northwoods1, It was the second one, it was all new to the older loggers, they just couldn't get tracks out of there mind. I peeled pulp for a guy up at International Fall's one summer,[1966] he had a TJ , he took the time and showed me how to fell timber for it and work the landing, tricks to get wood out. I was used to cutting everything up in the woods and hand piling. [ strip cutting ]

Your right, everything under 14" should  be cut  100", it takes the hurt away a little bit.
I was logging Co. wood, and the Co. truck hauled the logs and bolts for me [ their rule ] the driver told me the scalier,  didn't even scale the small top logs, 10" to 8" top, i got the hint, the last logs always ended up 100" for some reason.
Than he told me on the bolts, the Co short stick every load about a cord, so he hauled my wood at night, [ scale shack closed ] the trucker scales the load, a gain of 1 to 2 cords a load. [ facts ]

Ken, I want to say you do real nice work!!!  my landings had to be neat and clean to.
Guys be care full and always take that extra step

[Ken]

(I have to say I am really envious of Ken out there  I mean, a guy could make really great money with just a skidder and a chainsaw cutting loads like he pictured that scale out as they do, and the $400 per thousand... That is the kind of money a person should be making for doing that kind of work )

As I mentioned very early on in this thread we don't often get the opportunity to cut timber like the pine shown in the pictures.  It does seem very odd that others who live in areas dominated by pine do not get a better price than $250/mfbm considering that our finished product ends up in many of the same retail outlets.   As SD mentioned when the American economy was in better shape we were getting considerably more for our SPF building materials. 

Thanks for mentioning the clean looking landing.  Our landing is in a gravel pit which makes it much easier considering the fact that we have had 6-8" of rain this month.  Anybody who has worked with a skidder knows that it is very hard to keep a landing looking neat especially if you rely on someone else to truck your wood.   We do however pride ourselves on doing quality work and that attitude has kept us in work when many others have had to pack it in due to the industry being in the dumper.   I am an optimist though and am patiently waiting for our American friends south of the border to begin building houses again so that our industry can recover. 

Hope everyone had a great Christmas season
Cheers
Ken

[barbender]

It is sad how little pine pays over here- I think it was only $305 mbf when things were good 5-6 years ago. I'll make a note, I've never even sold pine logs to these mills, all I've done is talked to them for prices. But it is a straight $205mbf right now, there is no #1 or #2 grade, only deducts for poor grade knots and what, that's the impression they gave me anyhow. With our extensive pine forests, there are only 2 mills in northern MN that buy it on a reliable commercial basis that I know of, other than the Potlatch lumber mill. Part of the problem is that the Chippewa National Forest really slumped in the amount of wood they were selling for quite awhile, and they have the majority of the large pine in my area. I don't think the mills have had a reliable supply. From what I hear, the Chippewa is putting up more wood these days, but I don't think that they have sales that are accessible to a hobby logger like me. I can't buy these 3000 cord monstrosities they put together. They have sales that are stretched through the woods for 5 miles bunched into one because there admin. costs are so high, I guess. It would take me and the Pettibone 20 years to cut all of that Back to the point though, it is a shame that all of our beautiful pine sells for really not much more than Aspen pulp. According to my handy Woodmizer log rule and lumber scale it would take about 45, 14"top x 16' long logs to make a 5000' load, which would pay you $1050.(Scribner decimal c) Once you get to 18" tops, things look better, than it only takes about 24 to make 5000'. I don't know what aspen is paying right now, but I would think it is in the area of $80-85 per cord. So a 10 cord load of aspen would pay $800 or so. It don't seem right that junky ol' aspen culverts should be worth nearly as much as majestic big pine, this is buggin me somethin fierce

[lumberjack48]

The Chippewa National Forest is my home ground, logged the area for 36 yrs. My farther and me  bid on these big sales until the big boys started biding the stumpage up. They bid it up higher then we got at the mill for it, how in the heck can you stay in business. I saw pine bids up to $300. + a thro, Aspen $50. a cord on the stump, and the same for hardwood , it was crazy. There had to be something going on under the table, my thoughts.

I had to go to work for Rajala Timber, one pine block i was on cost them $80,000.00 just to open it, this is 25 yrs ago.

[SwampDonkey]

Just 5 years ago before the big bust, some loggers paid as much as $2000/acre based on pulp specs. That included about any kind of tree on the lot. I've seen many lots around 50-60 acres go for $80,000-100,000 stumpage. You couldn't afford to buy a lot and manage it selectively, anybody buying cut the whole works. Loggers would pay more for the stumpage than you could offer for the land purchase, flatten it and move on. Some would get a cruise, most just walked the lot to see what kind of wood they had. Any softwood logs they could get was bonus, but some mills paid as much as $120/cord for aspen and hardwood pulp. Mature timber runs from 24-36 cord per acre on woodlots, mature cedar runs over 60 cord/acre.

[barbender]

I didn't realize you cut for the Rajala's, Lumberjack4. It's a small world

[lumberjack48]

Barbender, their like working for the company store, you'll never get head.

[SwampDonkey]

You sure they're not related to Jim Irving?

[Ed_K]

here's what took 4 days with the tractor.
 



landini 4x4 with tajfun winch.

 

[barbender]

Lumberjack4, that's pretty common knowledge around here I live right across the road from the legendary Dean R, he moved up 46 here about 15 years ago, he's been buying all the property around here ever since Oh- btw Ed, nice pile of wood there

[northwoods1]

here's what took 4 days with the tractor.
 

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

landini 4x4 with tajfun winch.
I'm giving up tried to put second pict here 8x I'll try later .

Nice piles your truckers must love you

[Ed_K]

My Trucker has 5 guys he trucks for,he does like mine best .
Thanks,