Small Saw

[6sunset6]

I have been lurking for a while and just joined.   SE NY  I use a Stihl 026 I have had for 20 years. Works well.   Mostly firewood now from culling.   I started doing volunteer work on the Appalachian Trail .  Going to have to backpack a saw from time to time.  Also have figured out that a small saw can cut a lot of firewood.  I am looking at a Stihl MS192.   Very light and big tanks. Also a very good dealer 20 min away.  Anybody have any experience with that saw?

[Al_Smith]

Probabley be okay .I can't say much about them other than some people on another site like them for tree work .Better than many perhaps ,not quite a 200 though .Not the price of a 200 either for that matter .Light duty stuff it should be fine .

[jteneyck]

I don't know anything about that saw, but I'm an avid long distance hiker and just wanted to say thanks to you and all volunteers who give their time to trail maintenance.  Try walking a few hundred yards off trail, or nearly any of that thing they call the Long (so called) Trail in VT, and many in the Adirondacks, to be fair, and you realize that your hiking enjoyment is directly proportional to the efforts of folks who maintain the trails.  Thank you. 

[sawguy21]

What Al says. It is a very lightweight saw, should be good for backpacking, but don't expect the performance of the MS00T.

[Ed]

The ms192 is a good saw, mines 4 years old now, no problems, just routine maintiance. I also run ms200's, really no comparison, the 200 outcuts the 192 by a large margin.
The 192, is lighter, for you that would be a plus, if the ms200 is in your budget, buy it.

Ed

[ladylake]

 The 192t is built cheap and gutless but it's only 30cc and is light. Keep a eye on the spark screen, they like to plug up on smaller Stihls.  Steve

[John Mc]

For what he's doing, wouldn't he be better off with the rear handle versions of the MS192 or MS200, rather than a 192T or 200T? For trail maintenance on the AT, I don't imagine they are doing a lot of "climbing up in the tree" work where a top handle saw might be a benefit.

[ladylake]

 I hear the MS211 run good.   Steve

[Magicman]

6sunset6, Welcome to the Forestry Forum and Thank You for your volunteer work.

[miking]

I like my Echo saws better than Stihls in every situation I've worked in except for the smallest saw class, where my 192  rear handle shines. Steve is right when he says the screen plugs up right away until you discard it altogether, and then clean out the muffler too while you're at it but all in all, it has handled everything I've needed to use it for within reason. I suppose the 200 would be better but as far as I see a need for it, it's way too much money. Like many homeowner stihls though, it doesn't pump bar oil as much as it should and there is no adjustment. I use it a lot but if it was sitting around a lot between uses, I would think a cheaper saw of any brand would be more practical because of the cost.

[6sunset6]

Yikes   I looked at the 200.    What makes the price so high compared to the 192 or 211.   It's hard to tell from the web site.
Thanks for the comments on volunteering. 
 

[Al_Smith]

Well indeed a 200 is very costly and really not needed for the task at hand in this situation . It however is highly rated as a professional trimmers saw and as such Stihl can charge outragous prices for them .Many feel it's worth the price but some feel differently .Like anything else , a personal preference .

[Bill Gaiche]

ladylake, I agree. I have stated before that the 211 is a good little saw. Have had mine sense they hit the shops, about a year. bg

[sablatnic]

I wonder. I someone else would pay, I would go for the MS200, but now it is the MS192 or the MS211. I would probably take the 192, but the 211 is the new generation, that uses less fuel, so I wouldn't have to carry as much fuel. Tough one, that. Probably the 192.

[ladylake]

 The 192 saws I've run were gutless even after throwing out the spark screen and tuning good. I've heard the MS211 has quite a bit more power that the MS200 it replaced which had more the the 192t. If you olny cutting up to 6 0r 8" wood the 192 will do it but not fast, I guess it doesn't matter if just used once in a while.   Steve

[Dale Hatfield]

Dont remove the spark cover. you will be working on state and fed lands. They must be in place and not altered.

[6sunset6]

Good point   Thanks.   I am zeroing in on the Stihl 211.

[DonT]

As someone suggested,I would consider a rear handle model of saw.I run both Husky and stihl top handles off the ground,but switch to rear handled saws when  I hit the ground.just something to maybe consider before buying.

[simplicityguy92]

i bought a stihl ms250 this summer. it is light , cuts along time on a tank of fuel,  allways starts fist or second pull and cuts like big saw

[Al_Smith]

cuts like big saw

Perception is in the eye of the beholder .

[6sunset6]

I stopped by the Stihl dealer yesterday.  I touched all of them.  Did not saw with any.  170, 180, 192, 200, 211.  The 192 is defiantly lighter  at $350.
The 211 is 2# heavier, 25% more power at $280.   The 200 is light and powerful   but $650.
Cheapest is the 180   at $200  low power and on the heavy end.
I guess if I threw out $$  I would get the 200.  Yikes.   I am sort of heading to the 192  rear handle.  I am going to put a 12" bar on it and as long as it cuts I am not as concerned about how fast.    My only concern is a comment made here that it is cheap and gutless.  The gutless part is ok,  go slower, but  I wonder how long it will last.    I asked the dealer what made the 200 so expensive.  He really did not know other than it was a "professional saw". It is hard for me to see that crankshafts, pistons, rings  etc are made cheaper in a cheaper saw.  Although there are chrome rings and cylinders.  They all have to run at the same speed.  Perhaps tighter manufacturing tolerances on high speed parts but that is such a small cost increment.  I can see parts made from titanium rather than steel for weight reduction.  That would drive the price up big time,  still not  providing longer life.
I am just curious about the 200.

[Al_Smith]

You have to first of all keep in mind that manufacturers do not need to "justify " prices . Pretty much whatever the traffic will bear sets the price .

[miking]

I do think that the term "gutless" is kind of harsh. You have to remember that it's a pruning saw and use it accordingly and not bear down on it. If you do bear down on it and think it is indeed gutless, then you should probably should have gone with the 200. Pruning = 192, bearing down = 200.

[Al_Smith]

There's other brands of saws on the market than Stihl ya know . Fact is some that do just as well and cost a lot less .

You can't expect to relate every little saw to a 200 Stihl .We're talking a little souped up hot rod that quite frankly is out of most peoples price range .

[terrifictimbersllc]

Maybe think in terms of backpacking equipment, how much more one pays for strength and lack of weight, reliability and performance where you need your equipment to work well where you're going to be.  Not sure where you will come out with that suggestion but hoping it helps. 

If it were me I would be packing in my MS200T but that's me, I'm not recommending this to anyone else. I love this saw. If you ever use a saw with one hand remember where your other one is if you still have it. 

[northwoods1]

i noticed your talking about small saws, and keeping trails cleared, maybe having to carry or pack a saw.... If it were me I wouldn't be looking for a chainsaw I would carry a light axe and a handsaw. A handsaw would cut just about anything that stihl arborists saw would and be a much simpler solution. I carry a little bow saw that folds up and comes apart it has a couple different blades one for wood and you can saw through a good sized tree in a minute. A sharp axe will do some serious cutting quickly too.  

[JohnG28]

Have you got anyone around that can service Echo equipment?  You can pick up a cs330 for around $250, its a little over 8 lbs and would probably be fine for occasional cut you will come across on the trails.  Its not a Stihl ms200 but doesn't seem like your looking to pay that kind of money anyway.  If used occasionally and taken care of I imagine it would last a while.  Thanks for your service taking care of our trails as well,  I enjoy hiking NY trails often and its nice to hear from someone who helps maintain them.

[ladylake]

Small Echo saws are built better and have more power per cc than the cheaper Stihl saws but need to be tuned and a muff modd makes a big difference on them. They are all rated for 300 hours vs only 50 hours for some other saws. Steve

[Al_Smith]

I've always been curious as to where that 50 hour rating came from or to what conditions it is based on .Now if it's based on a back yard ,trim the apple tree saw ,ran twice and sat on the shelf for a year and a half -two  with old gas in it,probabley 50 hours would be a streatch before it ended up at a garage sale . Geeze the almighty Stihls would falter that being the case .

[ladylake]

 It's based on how long a saw can meet the EPA emissions. I don't know what happens to the 50 hour saws, maybe wearing out internally. I'm sure almost any saw will run longer than 50 hours.     Steve

[6sunset6]

I have never seen the rating 50 hr   vs 300 hr.  Where is that published  and what does it mean exactly.
I sent Stihl an email asking them what is so special about the 200   and how they kept the power so high with the weight so low.
Be interesting to see the answer.

On the statement about using a hand saw and axe.   Most trail maintainence is done that way. Sometimes there is just too much or too big.  The current problem is 150 8 x8 posts that need to be cut off at ground level.  Old walkway. It is not a backpack issue
but more like the weight of a big saw and continually touching up a long chain .  I would not be buying another saw just for this work, I have a Stihl 026, but  I am getting older, as are most trail volunteers, I still cut firewood, and I want something smaller.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Check with the EPA for their latest solar powered chainsaw recommendations.

[Al_Smith]

I sent Stihl an email asking them what is so special about the 200   and how they kept the power so high with the weight so low.
Be interesting to see the answer.

They aren't going to say a thing about it . It's no great secret though if you know a thing about port relationships on a two cycle engine .

The 200 has extremely aggresive porting for a saw of it's size .The ports on an 084 actually look tiny in relationship to those of a 200T .If the 84 had the power adjusted to it's size as the 200 you'd never be able to hang on to it .

[6sunset6]

I know next to nothing about the details of 2 cycle engines.  If the ports are large on the 200 does this mean it will wear out faster because the fuel load is larger every stroke? 
if it is souped up will it not last as long? 

[Al_Smith]

I suppose it's relative .With my 200's and one of them enhanced I'll likely run them forever no more use than they get .With a pro tree person who could use it all day every day 5 years it not uncommon .

Truth be known more of them suffer a premature death from 60 foot tumble than those that actually become worn out . Kind of like Humpty Dumpty .Stihl omelette ,so to speak .

[Ianab]

I know next to nothing about the details of 2 cycle engines.  If the ports are large on the 200 does this mean it will wear out faster because the fuel load is larger every stroke? 
if it is souped up will it not last as long? 

If you just port a normal cheapo engine, slap on a bigger carb etc to get more power out, then it's likely to wear out faster or even fly apart.

You have to engineer the engine better. Lighter and stronger alloys, better bearings and seals etc so it can handle the increased revs and power. This costs more money. That's why a MS200 costs more than a MS192. You could probably hot up a 192 so it had the same power as a 200, but you might also have it fly apart internally. The MS200 will generally last longer because of that better construction.

Same with auto engines.

You can take a trusty 1600cc Toyota engine and tweak it to rev to 8,000 rpm and put out 170 hp. Just dont expect it to last very long. But my little Corolla has a factory 1600cc engine that does just that, and has 150,000 miles on the clock. How? The engine is built to handle the load. 5 main bearings, twin cams with 5 valves per cylinder (smaller valves can move faster without damage) Oil jets to lube the piston skirts, variable cam timing, and a computer to look after everything etc. Bet that engine cost a lot more to manufacture than a standard car engine.

Exactly the same with a 2-stroke.

Ian

[John Mc]

i noticed your talking about small saws, and keeping trails cleared, maybe having to carry or pack a saw.... If it were me I wouldn't be looking for a chainsaw I would carry a light axe and a handsaw. A handsaw would cut just about anything that stihl arborists saw would and be a much simpler solution. I carry a little bow saw that folds up and comes apart it has a couple different blades one for wood and you can saw through a good sized tree in a minute. A sharp axe will do some serious cutting quickly too.  

Hey, wait a minute! Isn't that against forum rules? Suggesting a hand tool when a power tool could be used?

Actually, it's a good suggestion. I used to carry a bow saw and a folding limb saw when doing trail maintenance that was far from any motorized access. For routine trail maintenance, it worked just fine, and I didn't have to lug along extra fuel mix and B&C oil. The only time I carried along a chain saw was if I were cleaning up after a serious storm. (My experience in this is probably more limited than the O.P., however. I only did this on public trails for a few seasons about 20 years ago when I lived in Central NY. Since then, it's only been on local trails on my land and that of friends here in VT.)

John Mc

[6sunset6]

I got a very complete, respectful reply from Tech Support at Stihl.   Follows
       We are in receipt of and thank you for your email. The
difference between the two units has to do with their basic construction
design. The professional series, such as the MS200, is based on a design
format called the "split case" design. In this case, the crankcase is a
magnesium two-piece unit in which the crankshaft and bearings are placed
between the two halves, and then the halves and seals are pressed
together by means of pneumatic pressure and bolted together. The piston
and cylinder are then installed and bolted to the top of the crankcase,
and the unit is built up from that point. This design has been in
existence for close to forty years, and is considered very rugged and
durable. With a homeowner series unit, such as a MS180, the crankshaft,
piston, bearings and seals are installed into the cylinder, and then
sealed with an engine pan to form a shortblock assembly. This shortblock
is then nested inside a plastic motorhousing, and then built up from
that point. This design is over fifteen years old, and while also
durable and very successful, is generally not recommended for
professional use due to the heavier material (Glass re-enforced Polymer
vs. Magnesium) used in its construction.

       Another newer form of powerhead construction is the lighter
weight occasional use unit, such as the MS270 and MS280. This unit uses
a motor housing that is magnesium and includes the engine pan as part of
its unitized design. The shortblock is mounted on the engine pan section
of the motor housing, bolted down, and built up from that point. This
design has been in existence for almost three years, and though an
occasional use unit, the philosophy is that it offers the best of both
worlds: The lighter weight of a professional unit with the power and
balance of an occasional use unit.

       All of our units use a cylinder with four fuel transfer ports
for better loop-scavenging and less loss of power and fuel. The
professional design takes the process one step further by adding a
"bridge," or inner cylinder wall to better separate the ports from the
piston and give the fuel a more direct rate of flow toward the
compression event. In a homeowner/mid-range unit, the piston skirt acts
as the inner wall for the transfer ports.

       There are also differences with regard to materials and
construction of the crankshaft. In professional units, the crankshaft
and connecting rod assembly is a three-piece unit and is drop-forged.
The same is true for mid-range units.
Homeowner units below the MS250 designation use a five-piece, stamped
steel assembly that is more than adequate for its intended application,
but would not easily withstand the punishment associated with full-time,
8-hour, day to day operation such as would be the case with a
professional unit.

[Al_Smith]

Nice reply from Stihl although not elaborating in detail of the porting scheme on the 200T .Like I said though that design is a study within its' self .

As I've also made mention they can be improved although not necessary as they do just fine as they are with perhaps just the removal of the muffler screen .Most do,some frown on it .To each their own .

There are a couple of modifiers of saw engines that alluded you can't improve that engine but I proved them wrong as I delight in just 'cause I'm ornery  .They aren't kidding me, odds are they couldn't get their fat fingers inside that tiny cylinder nor could I for that matter .Unless they were the size of soda straws ,which they aren't .

[Cut4fun]

That was the best explanation I have seen in print comparing homeowner plastic cased saws to the magnesium cased saws. 

Stihl did good on that reply explaining

Also look at the rod on a MS180 compared to the one in the MS200 

[Al_Smith]

It's based on how long a saw can meet the EPA emissions. I don't know what happens to the 50 hour saws, maybe wearing out internally. I'm sure almost any saw will run longer than 50 hours.     Steve

  I doubt I own a saw that would pass EPA emissions for 50 seconds let alone 50 hours .

[ladylake]

I have one still new in the box, most likely won't even run set to EPA specs.  Steve

[Al_Smith]

Well that too but I'm kind of an outlaw in the eyes of the more gentile of chainsaw operators .Been accused of having ties to the Ohio  and Michagan chainsaw mafia and other such trivial nonsense .

Good thing I don't use my real name else the chainsaw police would come and lock me up for a long time .Lawdy I'd be old and  gray before I got released .Wait a minute,I'm already old and gray .

[Bill]

fwiw 

Tho joining this a little late here's my story . My ( old ? ) body wanted something smaller for most of my simple cutting needs - now firewood and occasional light tree trimming - as my " big " saw became  overkill ( think like hammer to kill a fly ? ). I picked up a stihl 019t new some years back. My experience has been that even using it for alot of my firewood I prefer its light weight and handling for anything 14" and smaller ( I use a 12" bar and try to make sure there's always enough oil going to the bar )  to cut a few cords a year. It easily " outcut " the homeowner saws I saw others buy - many times even bigger ones ( they probably had dull chains  . Except for replacing chains its been easy to use - tho a bit slower if I ask it to cut bigger wood . I do make sure to be careful about keeping the chain sharp.

imho - even tho its not a pro saw its given great service and with regular maintenance has lasted and lasted . I'm sure others make good saws also .

Good luck

btw  - will the eco-volunteers complain about the " petro " based bar oil ?  I think I've heard of people running other oils - just can't recall which . . . 

[6sunset6]

I have made a decision.  Actually my wife made it.  I got some unexpected  checks in the mail,  although not quite  enough to make up the difference between the 192 and the 200.  I read the Stihl explanation to her and she said,   I recognize the expression on your face. Go get that dollar stretcher tool you got and get the 200.   Hmmm  .   Today I think

[John Mc]

Go out and get it quick, before all the Christmas shopping bills start coming in...

[6sunset6]

I picked up the 200.  Nice saw.   I did not have time to spend with the dealer and five people came in behind me.  Maybe I shouild have waited till after new year.  But a saw is a saw is a saw.   I know all the basic stuff .
However  I opened up the tool kit and found a thing called a locking strip.  Number 2 in the picture.
Anybody know what it is for?

[Stihlnorm]

Congrats on the MS200 great saw!!!  The locking strip  is used for holding the engine from turning over while removing the clutch. You remove the spark plug place the tool into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and rotate the engine till it binds up. With the engine "locked" you simply loosen the clutch off of the crankshaft. READ THE MANUAL for proper placement of the strip, damage is possible if not in the proper position.

[6sunset6]

Now that I have fully investigated my new saw, never having ever done that before , I have found a little thing called a carburetor pre heat slide.   Turns out my 20 year old 026 has one also so.   The book says below 50d F set it up for pre heat.  Means turning it around so a slot is open.   Has anybody done that ?   Does it make a difference?

[beenthere]

I have it, but don't use it (MS361). Especially haven't used it below the 50° F as the manual says.
Will be interested to hear what others do. I thought it was very much colder temps than 50.   

[Ianab]

The slide is mostly to prevent ice forming in the carb in cold humid conditions. Many cars have the same thing, in the old days there was a flap on the air cleaner, now it's automatic and the computer controls it.

In warm weather you want fresh cool air from outside as it's more dense and gives better power. In really cold conditions, sucking some warmer air from around the cylinder head should prevent ice.

I don't saw when it's that cold, so mine stays in the "summer" position.

Ian