A Portable Production Bandmill

[Brian_Bailey]

Here is what I meant in another post about what's a small production mill. This mill can swamp ya with lumber If'n your not careful  .

I had this mill custom made for me by Sanborn Machine of So. Waterford, Maine in 1985. I had been running a WM LT30 for a little over a year and yearned for a portable with higher production figures. This mill provided that.





This picture shows the reason for the higher production. The band is a 19 ga. 5" wide blade with sliver teeth on the back side. It cut a kerf approx. .090.  The teeth were swaged, 1.25 pitch. The blade next to it is a WM 1.25", 7/8 pitch.



The blade is rusty and has a few teeth missing, but I'm saving it as a momento from my past.  I sold the mill in 89 because my captive helpers (sons) wanted a better life in the Army. The mill was more than I could handle by myself, so I modified my business plan and returned back to the WM family.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it .

[D._Frederick]

B_B,
What kind of wood was you sawing and what kind of production did you get out of the Sanborn? How much of a problem was maintenance of the wide blade? How big a job was it to move and get set-up to saw?

[Brian_Bailey]

D_F,  

I sawed mostly Basswood, Butternut, Tulip, and E. Hemlock as I had buyers for as much as I could saw. I also sawed / KD quite a bit of Cherry, Maple, & Red Oak for the cabinet & trim boys. Plus whatever someone brought up to be custom sawed.

I never realized the full potential of the mill because it was powered by a 23hp khohler. The 23hp was standard and I intended to replace it with a 65hp Wisc. In softwoods, we avg. 2-3 mbf. in an afternoon of sawing.  Hardwoods, 1.5-2 mbf / afternoon was common. These numbers would of been a lot higher with the bigger engine and men instead of teenage boys as helpers  . Sanborn claimed 5mbf /day was easily attainable.

Sharpening the bands was no big deal as I sent them out to be done. Unless you have a filing room with all the right equipment your not going to maintain them yourself.

The weight of the mill was 5 tons and it needed to have the log loader unhooked and the headblocks removed to be road legal. So needless to say, you didn't move it to saw a half dozen logs . The small portables mills definately have the advantage here, but thats it.

This mill was not meant for the weekend sawyer, but rather for someone looking for a small production mill that could be portable.  Wavy cuts weren't an issue with this mill, also .

Hope this answers your ?'s

[D._Frederick]

B_B,
Thanks for the reply, the only question I have is what happens to the board when it is cut-off. Sawmilling & Woodlot had evaluated the slant Sanborn band mill a few years back. They showed a belt to carry the cut-off boards.

[Chet]

Jeff and I where checking out a video of that setup at the Lake States Logging Congress. It was an impressive looking mill. But one thing we where questioning was the abuse the head blocks would take when loading large logs or flipping big cants.

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't see where there would be anymore of a beating from turning cants than a conventional mill.  Especially if you are turning out.  Logs would probably roll onto the headblocks, due to the angle.

I think these would make a pretty good resaw for a circle mill.  Can be bought for about $30K, used.  

S & W also makes a pretty hefty mill.  Not sure of the production capacity, but runs a 2" band.

[Jeff]

I was more concerned with the trucks and wheel bearings and such, with the way the logs dropped on to the carriage rather then rolled on. Beefy Oak logs take their toll.

[Jeff]

One good point that I really liked was the way the cant or log was always tight to the knee because of gravity.

[Brian_Bailey]

D._F,  

I'd forgotten about Sawmill & Woodlot's review. Dug out my copy and reread the article. I remembered thinking when I first read it that the production figures were kinda low. I don't think those mills were being run too hard as I was getting those figures with my meager operation.
Here is how the boards came off the mill. At the end of the cut the board would drop down into the tray. When you gigged the head back the board came with it. The times, when I worked alone, I would keep sawing, letting the boards stack up on the tray until the saw carriage became tipsy. I then stopped and stacked the boards. Helpers were always appreciated .



Chet,  

That was one of my concerns when I ordered the mill. I was assured they were build to withstand the punishment and they were. I did notice in the mag. review mentioned above that the headblocks shown in the article appeared not as heavily built as mine were. There was one weak link though and that was the brass/bronze nut that moved the headblock back & forth. It was powered by a 11/2" acme threaded rod. One day I was in the middle of a cut when all of a sudden one of the headblocks slid all the way down . An unsettling experience at best.

Ron,  

That's funny you mention resaw, because every time I took the bands to the filer, he would remind me that these bands were for resawing, not for primary breakdown of logs. He recommended nothing less than an 8" band for sawing logs .

While digging out that back issue of Sawmill & Woodlot, I came across the 2001 Shoot Out issue and in it was a double cut bandmill, Heartwood Mod. 310. It cut 504 bf in 13 mins. www.heartwoodsaw.com  Now lets see,  

[Brian_Bailey]

Jeff,  

When I had a large log, I would slowly lower the loader so the log didn't slam against the knees. I then ran the headblocks back so the log was postioned for the first cut. I think this saved them from being pounded, but cost me in added wear to the brass nuts.

[Chet]

Seems like I remember that they had some sort of spring type cushion for the head blocks. But I don't remember anything special about the trucks, as Jeff said.

[D._Frederick]

B_B,
Nice photo's, glad that you posted them. Were the acme threads greaseable or did you just have to replace the nuts?

[Brian_Bailey]

You gots ta remember my mill was built in 1985. I'm sure Sanborn has made a lot of changes in their design just like Woodmizer has. Since I bought my 99 WM I haven't kept up to speed on whats out there. No need to   .

[Brian_Bailey]

D._F,  

Thanks, I like to post pictures. Saves ya from a lot of typing.  Besides, I have to recoup the $39 Tom & Jeff made me spend on the xat program so I could post pics here

The threads were easy to get to, all I did was wipe them with a rag that was soaked in gear oil a couple of times a day. I tried grease at first but it just gobbed up at the brass nut and made for a mess. The oil was much better.

[ScottAR]

   The Heartwood operation is impressive!!  This sawing thing is gonna get me in trouble, I can tell already...

[solidwoods]

$30,000 used?
5000bf day?
And were not even off the mill for edging yet.
Could someone go to a "fetch the log and bring it to a circle" operation" and come out better?
I kind of think above a certain amount going portable with a bandmill beats a dead horse. The production is just not there compared to non portable, circle, maybe even add a log truck.
I guess allot of it depends on the local economy where you work.  Many make it work somehow.  I tell my friends "it's no get rich quick scheme"
If you can craft some of your equip., you can really keep the overhead down.  
JIM

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure what you're trying to come up with?  5 Mbf/day is pretty good production for a basically manual mill, either circle or band.  

Small bandmills are ideal for portable operations.  They are not ideal when you are sawing for wholesale operations, like most circle mills.  You either have to buy cheap logs or lower your production costs.

On any type of operation, profit=lumber value - log costs - production costs.

Niche marketing will get you a higher lumber value, especially if you are looking at small lots that bigger mills either ignore or overlook.

Log costs are dependent on competition in the area.  If competition is high for a certain species, you'll have to pay more.  

Production costs are a function of how much you can run through a given amount time.  Overhead has to be controlled, but the equipment must be bought that will satisfy the operation.  

If you only want to produce a couple Mbf/year, you don't need a bandmill with all the bells and whistles.  If you want to produce a trailerload of ties a day, a bandmill won't fit the ticket.  

Old, beat up equipment can cost more to operate than new equipment.  What you save in your initial investment, you lose in downtime or poorly manufactured product.  Our costs are about $2/minute.  So, a 15 minute breakdown due to some cheap chain costs a lot more than a better grade of chain, for example.  How many grade boards do you have to lose due to a poor setworks before you repair or replace it?   Sometimes you need a sharp pencil, and its usually before you invest in equipment.

[Brian_Bailey]

One of the reasons I stepped up to the Sanborn was because of its ability to saw hemlock and basswood fast without wavy miscut boards.

One of the reasons I sold it and went back to a WM was because of the expense of maintaining the bands. It was eating into profits big time.

Plus my filer was retiring and that meant either invest another 20 grand plus into the required equipment for a file room or start shipping the blades out of state, major expense.  

Another factor was the amish. They had recently started up several mills nearby and their paying cash for logs made it difficult to obtain quality logs at times.

I pushed the pencil pretty hard back then ( still do ) and decided to modify my business plan. I felt concentrating on niche markets ( not custom sawing either ) with a quality product rather than quanity would be my goal.

I4 years later, I'm still looking for that DanG goose  .

[Ron Wenrich]

The biggest reasons I've seen for mills going broke is the inability to buy sawlogs at an afforadable price.  The telltale signs are the quality of logs in the yard.  Small logs are expensive to mfg.  But, as supplies go down, so does the log size, along with profits.

Some mills will retool for the smaller logs, and survive.  Others will try to use older technology to lower costs, but usually lower productivity.  The new wave is to try to add as much value before it leaves your door.  That works as long as not everyone does it.  

We've been selling some hemlock logs to a guy who undercuts our price.  We would rather him saw at a lower price and slowly twist in the wind and go broke.  Those custom orders aren't real money makers for us.  Too much time for too little return.

I would rather eliminate unprofitable logs from the production stream.  A good mill analysis will tell you which logs you should and shouldn't be cutting.  It varies with each mill setup and with species and grade.  Too bad not many mills use it.

[Brian_Bailey]

Ron,  

I've found for my operation, it is more profitable for me to pay the bigger bucks up front and get the better logs. I have more customers wanting the upper grade lumber and are willing to pay for it.
Wholesaleing the lower grades is not an option for me because of the small amount that I have. Besides, the transport costs would eat up any ( if any ) profits. So value added is the the way for me on these grades.

Your last two posts are priceless and should be required reading for anyone contemplating getting into sawmilling as a business !!

[ElectricAl]

Brian,

In 1994 Linda and I set our portable WM in a loggers log yard and started sawing. By 1995 logger thought he wanted to be rich like us so he odered a 50hp electric Sanborn 17 degree slant band.

When it arrived we helped set it up. We finished sawing the order we were on that week, then headed home.

We set up on my uncles farm and sawed for 2 -3 weeks when the logger showed up. Logger was trying to saw full time and run a 5 man logging crew at the same time. He asked if I would come up and run his new saw

So I did.  We used Olson bands with Stelite tips, and had Menomimee saw sharpening. What a frustrating deal. Took several weeks to figure out the teeth were being ground but not sharpened to the points.

Switched to swedge tooth and a local sawmill for sharpening.

With debarked hardwood logs we went from 3000' in 7 hours to 5000 plus. Had a crew of 6. Not quite the 1000' per man, but we had retarded flunkies that no one else would hire.

I ran the Sanborn M-F and WM Sat-Sun for 4 months.  Linda got tired of our business getting put on hold.  I just got tired of the flunkies. Tried to teach them how to edge and endtrim for grade, but when I would load the semis, I kept seeing beaver tails and full barked edges

Finally, I told the logger his helpers were Puddin' Heads and I was not coming back.

The sawmill end of the business lasted another 14 months.
The saw cost $72,000 new and less than 2 years later it sold for $30,000.

Logger thought he broke even after selling off all the support equipment  

2 years of headaces and buchered lumber and he broke even      


Oh Yeah, rich like us



We have had two guys jump into sawing after hiring us to saw for them. Both guys jumped right back out of sawing when they realized how hard the work really was and how much money we really don't make.

[Brian_Bailey]

Hi Al,  Yeah, alot of folks don't see the whole picture, they only see the price of lumber at the retail store and figure you must be making a lot of money and want a piece of the action!  Ha, Ha, Ha oh yeah  

P.S.  A good filer is worth his/her weight in gold.

[Norm]

Since we have a web site we get the occasional e-mail for 2 pieces of wood cut and planed to exact dimensions and straight lined on the edges.  It has to be clear with no knots or defects. This is never local so it has to be shipped either UPS or common carrier. If I even figured my time in doing this at 10 dollars an hour I would have to charge what the box stores do. Usually I explain that we have a $50 dollar minimum for orders that have to be shipped. Oh yeah I'm getting so rich I put that new Saratoga II TC on order. Just don't tell Patty.

[woodbowl]

$30,000 used?
5000bf day?
And were not even off the mill for edging yet.

   

Ron, 



Your last two posts are priceless and should be required reading for anyone contemplating getting into sawmilling as a business !!

    Please read all the topic.  Is it reasonable to conclude that the claims as well as proven facts (under certain conditions) of 800 plus BFPH from Manufacturers of portable band mills such as WM, cooks and several others, to consistantly produce using a 1 1/2" blade, are now in this league and are cost effective. If not, what are the unforseen drawbacks?

[floyd]

any log out of specs for mill ins not profitable.

Many mills have retooled to make money on small logs.

[Brian_Bailey]

I have a Woodmizer Lt-40 super, it can produce a lot of lumber in a day's time for it's size.

This is important, I'm not physically capable of handling the output that this mill can produce in a day's time, day after day.

So unless you have the support to handle the volume that these mills can produce, they might as well be pie in the sky figures.

I think the manufactures give those numbers just so you can get a ball park figure on what each mill is capable of under ideal conditions.

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't want to get into any type of production war, but 7 Mbf/day on a bandmill would be doing something.   I always question someone else's numbers, since its pretty easy to pad the numbers.  What type of wood, what type of cutting pattern, how much support equipment, how is the wood measured?  In pine, they count a 6/4 hardwood cut at 2", for example.  Did they cut all day, or just cut 1 hour and use that as a basis?

Everyone knows that I run a big automatic headrig.  In 16' tulip poplar, I can avrage about 2000-2200 bf/hr.  8' poplar ends up being more like 1500 bf/hr.  On Tuesday, I only got about 1200 bf/hr, but I was cutting 4/4 hickory.  I use 4 other helpers, run debarked logs, and have a chipper and blower to handle my woodwaste.

[woodbowl]

I have a Woodmizer Lt-40 super, it can produce a lot of lumber in a day's time for it's size.

This is important, I'm not physically capable of handling the output that this mill can produce in a day's time, day after day.

So unless you have the support to handle the volume that these mills can produce, they might as well be pie in the sky figures.

  If the support is there to handle the volume by mechanical means and the log is so manipulated as to allow minimal time between cuts, (keeping the blade in the wood) Surely a low HP bandmill could produce high BFPH. A hypothetical example would be a round pen of logs pre-read and ready for the blade. As soon as it exits one log it enters another as a resaw would. Each log is turned and memory awaits the blade for the next required number. How many BFPH could be sawed using a band blade with 24HP? How many BFPH could be sawed with 62HP? This seems like an unrealistic system but it allows freedom to concentrate  on just the blade cutting potential. "Select" and other double cutting band mill companies stay in the cut more. I feel that if the goal is to produce more BFPH with a portable band mill, it is misleading to say more power is needed. Of course it saws faster and more lumber is made at the end of the day but "staying in the cut" by using smarter and faster techniques doesn't seem to be as popular as "get more power."

[pigman]

I  agree with woodbowl. If a motion time study was done, it would show that the money spent on faster cutting saws would be better spent on support eguipment to keep the blade in the wood.  On a typical saw job with my WM and no support equipment I spend only about 10% of the time with the blade in the wood. At home with with a loading deck, a simple conveyor and a tractor , I spend about 20% of the time in the wood.  I still like my 40hp mill.

[Ron Wenrich]

Manipulating the log to allow time between cuts is difficult to do on portable mills.  I have downturns, so on many logs, they are being turned on the gig back.  I see no way of doing that on a portable mill, the way they are currently designed.

If the goal is to have a saw in the cut more often, then you should be looking at a double cut band.  

As for power, its been my experience that more power leads to better performance and feed rates.  You can overfeed any machine.  When you do, you sacrifice quality for production.  That leads to lower priced wood, so what's the point?  

Time studies are best used to find the optimum log for a certain length and species.  Your optimum log may not necessarily be your fastest production log.  A lot depends on product yield. 

With custom sawing, you don't have the option to pick and choose which logs you're going to saw.   That also kills your production.

On any production type of mill, the headsaw is supposed to be the bottleneck of the operations.  If the headsaw has to wait for either logs or material to be moved, then the bottleneck is projected further down the line. 

[Brian_Bailey]

woodbowl,

My current mill has a 35 hp gas engine.  I think that the higher production from my mill compared to say a 24 hp one is more due to the faster hydrualic functions on my mill. So like you say, the blade is in the wood more.

My first bandmill was a WoodMizer Lt-30 I got in 1984. It only had a 14 hp gas engine on it and no hydraulics. I can remember how amazed I and others were with the amount of lumber that this little mill could saw in a days time.

Thinking back to those times, I chuckle to myself when I see these mills today that appear to be all engine   .

[woodbowl]

Manipulating the log to allow time between cuts is difficult to do on portable mills. 
 
With custom sawing, you don't have the option to pick and choose which logs you're going to saw. That also kills your production.

Yes and yes. This is the dilemma.......As I look back over the years at the improvements of bandmills, I am amazed at the progress. 30 years ago, I was reading the state of the art information package on the "New" lumber producing band mill. I was a nuckle headed teenager holding a one page spec sheet from Woodmizer. It ran the .035 blade and could produce several hundred feet in a days time! I said, I've just got to get me one of those Woodmizers! Hypothetical, so called foolish conversation has sparked the imagination of many an unlikely will be inventer. As History continues to declair the future, I await the smart individual(s) who will come up with such a contraption, later to be called "state of the art".  Actually, I am hoping to stumble onto their unknowing talents as members of the Forestry Forum.

[Brian_Bailey]

woodbowl, 

that smart individual has already come up with your contraption, it's called a circle mill  .

[GHRoberts]

Brian_Bailey ---

I was given a tour of a "large" mill in Pennsylvania.

They had a saw visually similar to yours. About a 5" wide blade with carbide teeth. Electric rather than liquid fuel. They cut rejected veneer logs. That saw did the best job I ever saw.

It took a lot of support equipment (and a big pile of logs) to keep the machine running.

[Brian_Bailey]

GHRoberts, 

I use to catch a lot of flack from the filer that sharpened my bands.

He use to say that 5 & 6" bands are meant for resawing not for cutting logs.