Help with this oak

[flip]

There is a story and I don't know the "whole" story but here is what was said.  This is supposedly an oak that was blown down or fell down on a guy's property by Patoka Resivoir here in Dubois county (about 20 minutes from my house).  I have not seen pics. of the tree yet but what was told to me through a friend of the guy that is turning it into fire wood it is 15' (yes feet) across.  He has a picture of himself standing up in the middle of the butt, not sure if I believe it or not but where the wood was good they supposedly stopped counting at 300 growth rings.  Again, I have not verified this but I am thinking this would have been one of the oldest oaks in Indiana.  John said the limbs on this thing are in the 20-30 inch area (what they are wanting us to cut on shares).  The pics. I have are a chunk of a limb of a limb.  I can't count the rings because either my eyes are that bad or the rings are that tight but I am seeing somewhere around 40 or so to the inch.  What I am looking for is ID of the wood, pretty sure it is red oak but not sure what flavor.  Any help is appreciated and when I get pics. of this thing I will post them in this thread.

 



 


 




 

[Tom]

Along with the identification, be looking for any historical data you can apply to the tree.  Cutting a tree like that up for common lumber or firewood is a real  waste if it has local significance.  Think of the number of generations that grew up within shouting distance of the tree and why it existed for so long without being taken down for expansion or disease.

There might be a fortune in the marketing of the wood of the tree, writing pens, walking sticks, bowls, plaques, as well as tables and chairs that carry a certification.

Can you get acorns?  You could even sell seedlings.

[beenthere]

Question
Is this a pic of one of the limbs?

The red oaks are not identifiable as to which variety (flavor ) from the wood, even microscopically (according to the experts). Need leaves, etc. to do that.

[flip]

Question
Is this a pic of one of the limbs?

The red oaks are not identifiable as to which variety (flavor ) from the wood, even microscopically (according to the experts). Need leaves, etc. to do that.

This is a pic of the limb of one of the limbs if that makes sense.  It was about 12" dia before it was broken into chunks.

I told them to get leaves, only way I know how to tell.  They said the bark looked like white oak and red oak and shag bark hickory   The tree shrunk to 11' after talking to the guy that is cutting it up for fire wood.  Still trying to negotiate a deal with him for some scraps.  He said it is/was the oldest tree in Indiana, how he knows is anyones guess.  AFAIK he does not have any documentation to this or a reference to verify the claim.  I don't think this guy cares much as long as it burns in his boiler.

[SwampDonkey]

It's red oak, but beyond that just a guess as to species. The pores in the heartwood of white oak are generally filled with tyloses (think of hardening of the arteries, all clogged up). You also can't see latewood pores with a 10 x lens even. Just the opposite on both counts when dealing with red oak. This is determined by looking on the end grain.

[WDH]

It screams white oak to me.  The length of the exposed medullary ray in the first pic is more white oakish than red oakish.  The bark looks like it might be scaly, another feature of white oak. 

The National Champion white oak, in Brunswick, VA, is 8.27 feet in diamater.  If your tree is really 11 feet in diameter, then it was the national champion by far.  Without an actual measurement, I would be suspicious.

 http://www.americanforests.org/resources/bigtrees/register.php?details=3195

[SwampDonkey]

The rays seem narrow for what I picture white oak rays to be, but maybe it's the scale of the picture. The heart looks like a pinkish hue.

[ARKANSAWYER]

Looks like white oak to me.  Looks like about 15 rings to the inch and at 11' that would make the tree between 950 to 1,100 years old.  Tom might have planted it in some of his wonderings.  

[WDH]

The earlywwod pores look occluded, at least from what I can discern from the pic.   Most oaks don't make it to 1000 years.  Tom just had a birthday, and even he is not close  .

[SwampDonkey]

You guys have sharper vision than I do, to see occlusions and tape measure marks across them rings. Who could argue with that, eh?

[woodsy]

Looks like white oak to me too. 

[WDH]

SD,

I guess that you did not see the mermaid hologram either  .

[SwampDonkey]

I was wondering if the confusion on diameter was in confusing a diameter tape marked in Pi graduations when out measuring trees with a forester and thinking a carpenter's tape was the same thing and then proceeding to wrap the carpenter's tape around the trunk for diameter. Don't forget to divide by PI.

Good luck with your red and white oak.

In your last pic, are those fine lines (rays) an inch or better in length for the most part?

[whitepe]

This sounds like a magnificent tree.   Here's a 300 year old (estimated)  burr Oak tree located in Peoria, Illinois
I should drive by and take some pictures. I haven't seen it for several years.  It's impressive in person.

http://www.peoriaparks.org/giant-oak-park

[flip]

Got some dried up leaves off the tree today, judging by the rounded lobes I am calling it a eastern white oak.

[SwampDonkey]

Yup, white oak.  Although I must say, I have red oak with rays that wide. White oak is rare up here and is never sawed (for lumber) here, because of it's rarity. It's actually bur oak up here. Many towns will have English white oak planted a century ago. I do have one white oak, planted 25 years ago from NH. And yes the bark is flaky on it like these gentlemen have stated.

[miking]

Looks like white oak to me too, but the little bit of thick bark suggests bur oak too. Whitepe, you know Peoria? Several oaks in the area are well over 300. I know because I've taken core samples.

[beenthere]

miking
Tell us about taking core samples and determining the tree is over 300 years old.

[SwampDonkey]

Leads to my question, How long is the increment borer? I know a red spruce was determined to be over 400 years old on the Fundy coast during dendrochronology work, but the tree was only 18" diameter, so you only need a borer 9" beyond the handle, well 11" or 12" maybe unless you want to scrape knuckles.

[Tom]

You would need a borer longer than 9" to count the rings in most 300 year old Loblolly Pines, down here.     Not all old trees have tight rings.

'Course a 300 year old Loblolly pine might be difficult to find.

[SwampDonkey]

I'd place bets on that one Tom.

[SwampDonkey]

I cut an ash that was 22-24 rings to the inch and it was 20", so a 300 year old one doesn't take an extremely long borer. I think you can get 16" and 20" borers, maybe longer.

I have a scanned image in the gallery, talked about it many times in threads.

[miking]

miking
Tell us about taking core samples and determining the tree is over 300 years old.

Have a 12" borer and took the samples in I believe 1999. Both are chinquapin oaks on steep dry hillsides and in the neighborhood of ~30" dbh. Though the borer couldn't reach the center of the tree, the rings can be counted then estimated by comparing the known rigns by the known core length, then projecting the rest. I remember one was determined to be 368 yo and the other 324 based on the ring data. I know that younger trees grow faster than older, so I suspect the unreachable inner rings may well be larger and thus faster growing but I still believe that conservatively, both of these trees are still 300+ and still growing. In addition and as a side note, both of these trees are in association with native hill prairies and have certainly experienced numerous prairie fires to boot. They are truly a marvel to look at and wonder about. I also have cored white oaks nearby that also are near 300 and one wo in Springfield that I counted 440 rings in with a 15" borer.

[SwampDonkey]

Not so much oak maybe, but we have trees that still look like seedlings or maybe 6 feet tall max after 50 years of growth under suppression. Some have to be read under microscope. That would be the shade tolerant species under hardwood canopy, sometimes under softwood as well, but it tends to be mostly dead under thick softwood canopy. But not many get big afterward except maybe hemlock and red spruce, maybe sugar maple or beech as well. Balsam fir no, another 30 years and it's dead. I suppose if could reach 18" by then if released, but rare if suppressed that long.

[miking]

That's very true. Some of the tightest rings around here I've seen were shagbarks growing under the canopies of larger oaks. If memory serves me they were something like 6" dbh and 80 years. However those growing in the canopy gaps were the same size but considerably faster growing despite growing within meters of each other. I also remember an American ash that was growing under oak that was 84 years at the ground and about 2 inches in diameter.

[Phorester]

Age of trees with diameters larger than an increment borer's length can be extrapolated as BEENTHERE says.  I bore as far as I can, measure the core length to an exact  inch (for instance if it's 6.5 inches long, I drop back to the 6" spot).  Then count all the rings in that length of core, divide by the number of inches to get an average number of years per inch, then multiply that by inches of radius. I might hedge that number based on where the tree is growing, etc. Works pretty well.  I estimated the age of 2 yard trees in different yards by this method.  One was 135, the other 180. Both homeowners said that's when the houses were built. Since it would have been logical that trees were planted in a yard when the house was new, I figured it was pretty close to the trees' actual ages.

I also have a chart at my office that estimates tree age by species, based on the diameter.  Don't know how in the world  these were determined.  I've checked it with actual tree cores and it sure is close.

As far as ages and sizes, I've seen a 30" diameter Norway maple yard tree that was 60 years old. It died from verticillium wilt and was cut down, so I could count the growth rings on the stump. I've counted rings on stumps of street trees in our town that were cut down.  One had a 16" stump and was 24 years old. The flip side -  Bored a 12" diameter chestnut oak on top of a steep, dry, south facing ridge that was 160 years old. I have a 4" diameter white oak beaver biscuit at my office that has 75 rings in the radius.

[locustoak]

Hm...what happened to flip?   I would love to see more pictures of this ancient tree, and possibly get my hands on a slab of the butt.

[clww]

That sounds bigger than the oak I'm currently working on. I'd like to see pics, too.